Confusion Corner

[GlytchMeister]

I've recently learned about this forum's "confusion corner" tradition, and it gave me an idea. Why don't we have a thread or board (or something) dedicated to wild mass guessing? It could also be a good place for new readers, fresh off their archive binge, to come and ask about events that occurred years ago instead of trying to dig up really old daily threads.
...
Whaddaya think? And does anybody out there have a question or off-the-wall theory?

[Atomic]

I second that idea!

[MerchManDan]

I'll third the notion & suggest the Confusion Corner thread be started in the Wapsi Square General Discussion subforum. This is where most of the wildest guessing & out-of-the-box theorizing happen anyway.

[GlytchMeister]

I'll third the notion & suggest the Confusion Corner thread be started in the Wapsi Square General Discussion subforum. This is where most of the wildest guessing & out-of-the-box theorizing happen anyway.

...is there a way for me to move a thread or should I even bother? I don't want to annoy a moderator with two threads of the same title in two subforums...

[DinkyInky]

I tried that, and requested it to be stickied, but nobody posted in there to keep it.

[GlytchMeister]

Well, then, I guess we'd better get the questions rolling before this topic dies.
...
Something that's been nagging at me for quite a while are these half-mentioned prophecies. "Five winged beings destined to..." And "Bia will have a descendant who will set the powers right" and the Nui Gui's interpretation of the Bia prophecy that Bia should focus less on immortal heirs and more on a mortal descendant.

Are these two connected somehow? Does anyone have any idea what the complete version of the 5wing prophecy might be? If the Bia and the 5wing prophecies are connected, are they complimentary (prophesize the same thing occurring the same way, just with different words), supportive (prophesize separate events that, when combined, cause something more important to happen), divergent (prophesize separate possible futures that cannot coexist), or competitive (prophesize the same overall future coming about via different events)? ...or some other type of connection?
...
Given the recent encounter of Tina (possibly one of the 5 winged ones) and Bia, I'm thinking they are connected somehow.

[Catawampus]

Well, then, I guess we'd better get the questions rolling before this topic dies.
...
Something that's been nagging at me for quite a while are these half-mentioned prophecies. "Five winged beings destined to..." And "Bia will have a descendant who will set the powers right" and the Nui Gui's interpretation of the Bia prophecy that Bia should focus less on immortal heirs and more on a mortal descendant.

Are these two connected somehow? Does anyone have any idea what the complete version of the 5wing prophecy might be? If the Bia and the 5wing prophecies are connected, are they complimentary (prophesize the same thing occurring the same way, just with different words), supportive (prophesize separate events that, when combined, cause something more important to happen), divergent (prophesize separate possible futures that cannot coexist), or competitive (prophesize the same overall future coming about via different events)? ...or some other type of connection?
...
Given the recent encounter of Tina (possibly one of the 5 winged ones) and Bia, I'm thinking they are connected somehow.

Okay, my thoughts on the prophecies:

As far as I'm aware, we have had four strips that dealt with prophecies, two apparently dealing with one prophecy and the other two perhaps about a different couple of prophecies.

The first (I'll call it the Sibyl prophecy) is found here and here.
The prophecy: “She told me that the land of the crescent will turn to glass, but you [Bia] would have a descendent who will set the powers right.”
The source: Sibyl, by way of Charon.
The context: The chimera had just wiped out most of human civilisation.

The second (I'll call it the Atsali prophecy) is found here.
The prophecy: “It was told that six special women will defeat an evil, born from the death of an innocent.”
The source: Unknown, by way of Atsali.
The context: Katherine, Atsali, Bud, Brandi, Lily and Suzie had just defeated the Nu Gui.

The third (I'll call it the Tina prophecy) is found here.
The prophecy: “Five winged beings prophesied to be-”
The source: Unknown, by way of Tina.
The context: Tina feels that she let Monica down and hurt her.

Prophecies can be broken down into two different types. There's the Oedipus style ones, where the foretold events will happen regardless of whether you try to prevent them or not. Then there's the Ghost of Christmas Future style of prophecy, where you're presented with what will happen if things continue as they are, but you can take action to prevent them.

With the latter kind, you could have two conflicting prophecies. But with the former type, all prophecies have to fit together into the same framework, and thus will be connected in some way. It may be in the most tenuous imaginable way, but there will be a connection. Since we're dealing here with a limited number of characters in a limited area, then the connections would have to be rather strong.

So far, we have yet to see anybody successfully defy any of the prophecies. Of course, it's a bit tricky to say which prophecies have come to a conclusion already. The Atsali prophecy looks as though it probably came to pass: six women had just defeated an ancient evil being who had arisen due to the murder of an innocent baby. If that was the event that the prophecy was referring to, then that prophecy did indeed come true. That doesn't tell us whether or not a prophecy could have been derailed, just that it wasn't in this one particular case.

On the other hand, there's no guarantee that the prophecy was actually referring to all that had just come to pass. There are plenty of special women in this story, and there's always plenty of both evil and innocence in the world. You could plausibly argue that the prophecy actually refers to, say, six of the female characters eventually having to defeat the chimera, a product of the evil manipulations of some priests who murdered several innocents to make it happen.

And if that is the case, then the Atsali prophecy could actually tie in with and be part of the Sibyl prophecy. The Sibyl prophecy happened just after the chimera went amok and, according to the golem girls, covered that part of the planet in a post-apocalyptic shell of glass. That could easily be considered as the powers being set off-balance. So the prophecy is likely referring to a descendent of Bia somehow setting right what the priests did in making the chimera.

So far, then, we either have one prophecy that came to pass and had only a most passing connection to another prophecy, or perhaps two prophecies that are still waiting to be fulfilled and may be pretty much the same thing.

Again, though, the whole vagueness part comes into play. We're only assuming that the “set the powers right” bit was about the chimera, because of the context in which the prophecy is brought up. However, the Sibyl prophecy could possibly be referring to the calendar machine storyline. That could be considered as setting the powers right, and Bia's descendent Shelly did play a critical part in the events. Or it could be talking about something totally different, perhaps Shelly's third-oldest brother's grandson will fix some problem that we don't even know about yet (just as long as he doesn't bring balance to the Force).

If we take those two prophecies at face value and assume that they refer to the obvious things (which is by no means a certainty), then those two prophecies are probably not all that connected to each other. They just happened to both occur in the same universe. We don't know from either of them whether or not prophecies can be avoided, so we can't even say whether they were mutually exclusive or not.

With Tina's prophecy, we've basically got a whole lot of nothing. We know that five beings with a certain characteristic will. . .do something. That's it. It's hard to tell even the context. Was it her failing Monica that reminded Tina of the prophecy? Was it the rape? Was it her realising that Monica hadn't been fully prepared ahead of time for what her Jaguar Girl status involves? Whatever it is, Tina seems to be less than happy about whatever the five winged beings are going to do.

Could Tina's prophecy be a part of Sibyl's, or vice versa? Perhaps. Shelly, a descendent of Bia, is a winged being. Shelly, Tina and three others could end up doing something that seems really horrible in the short term, but that in the long run sets things right with the chimera. Or the situation could end up as something totally different.

With the Nu Gui's comments regarding Sibyl's prophecy, she was trying her own way to fulfill the prophecy. This adds further weight to the idea that Sibyl's prophecy is about undoing what the Lanthian priests had done, since why else would an evil being care about setting things right other than that it would be revenge against those who had set things wrong (and in the process had killed her as an infant)? Exactly how the Nu Gui's plan would have resulted in a descendent of Bia being mortal and doing things, I'm not sure. This was all long before Shelly was born, so it's not as though the Nu Gui was trying to actively plan about Shelly specifically. Perhaps Bia already had some children by that time, and the Nu Gui was planning something about them. . .in which case, there could be more relatives of Shelly's who we either have yet to meet or else haven't realised are relatives.

[GlytchMeister]

Dang. You pretty much just took apart the whole prophecy concept within Wapsi Square and put it back together. Thanks. I'm going to mull that over for a while.

[Catawampus]

You pretty much just took apart the whole prophecy concept within Wapsi Square and put it back together.

That is one of my mutant superpowers.

[GlytchMeister]

No kidding.

There's been a whole lot of theorizing about the nature of Tina and her evolution going on in the daily threads. The trouble is, there isn't a whole lot of info, and Tina herself doesn't even seem to know what the heck is going on, and Phix has always been rather vague when talking about this subject... So there are oodles of ideas that all make sense.
Some questions I have include:
Is Tina growing a soul? Will it behave like a human soul would and be capable of overpowering the demons? Or will it be more like a patch file that helps the demons operate the body better? What will become of Tina1.0's soul?
Why are the demons unconsciously making this progress? What's the urge, what's the motive?
And what the hell is Bia up to? Is she even up to anything, or was Bia just a figment of Tina's dream? Was it a dream?
And how does the connection between the demons and the body of Tina work?
...
There's more, but all of those trains of thought have kinda crashed into each other, leaving a very confused brain...

[Dave]

No kidding.

There's been a whole lot of theorizing about the nature of Tina and her evolution going on in the daily threads. The trouble is, there isn't a whole lot of info, and Tina herself doesn't even seem to know what the heck is going on, and Phix has always been rather vague when talking about this subject... So there are oodles of ideas that all make sense.
Some questions I have include:
Is Tina growing a soul? Will it behave like a human soul would and be capable of overpowering the demons? Or will it be more like a patch file that helps the demons operate the body better?

What follows is just my opinion, not Gospel of any sort.

Based on the discussion between Shelly, Nudge, and Conscience, it appears that a human soul can act as "spackle" (I can't remember who originated this term... I simply love it) which can integrate a covey of separate demons into a single, unified entity (a true "coven"). The addition of a human soul seems to be what converted Shelly's cohort of standard-issue demons into Conscience... and although the dialog was not 100% clear, I believe that it was Tina 1.0's soul.

Phix's comments to Tina, after the great Lost Medications incident, suggest to me that something like this is possible for Tina: "there is one other, who is similar to what you may become" or words to that effect.

If the Tina-covey is in fact going to develop (or be granted) a soul, I would anticipate that this is what will happen... "Tina 3.0" will evolve into a single, integrated being (as much as humans are single integrated intelligences, which isn't all that much IMO). The demons will lose at least some of their individuality... either an involuntary fusion, or by developing so much greater of a "communications rapport" that they will act as a single being even among themselves.

Modern neuroscience has confirmed something that various of the esoteric philosophies and religions have suggested for a long time... the human mind and consciousness are actually an amalgam of a whole bunch of separate processes and drives, loosely-to-tightly coupled together, often conflicting, often operating "below the horizon" of our conscious awareness. Our image of ourselves as a single "me" is, in large part, an illusion. That's not so very different than the way Tina described herself... something like "a crowd of psychological impulses, pulling the strings of a body". So, Tina 2.1, and "normal" humans, are different in degree but not all that much in kind.

So, in that context, "soul" may be something akin to a new. very-high-quality communications network/protocol/process/software - something which allows separate demons (or intelligence fragments of other sorts) to act in a "closely coupled" fashion rather than "loosely coupled". Addition of a soul might convert loosely-coupled Tina 2.1 into tightly-coupled Tina 3.0.

I would guess that this new Tina 3.0 entity will be more strongly integrated with Tina's body... possibly so much so that they'll be inseparable until the body eventually dies. After that, who knows?

What will become of Tina1.0's soul?

Per above, I believe it's now part of Conscience. Unless something happens to rip Conscience apart, it will probably remain part of her until Shelly's death. Conscience has said (several times) that she has a lifetime (different than other demons) which is tied to Shelly's. Granted, now that we know Shelly is a half-titan and thus probably very-long-lived (or immortal?) Conscience is likely to be around for a long time... but eventually Shelly may die, and thus Conscience may die.

Whatever happens to the soul within Conscience (which I believe is Tina 1.0's) after that, seems to be an open question.

Why are the demons unconsciously making this progress? What's the urge, what's the motive?

I don't know. Tina's covey of demons seems to have become more strongly bonded to her body, after her death, than has been shown for any other group of demons... standard demon-practice seems to have been to "let go" of the dying human, and eventually be "reassigned" to another human or humans. For reasons not yet known (I think) Tina's demons didn't do this, but "took responsibility" for running her body and resuming her life. This may have been due to the fact that their memory had been (mostly) erased and they were confused, it may have been due to Nudge's initiative, or both... and there may be other factors involved.

In any case, they seem to be "bound" to the Tina body in an uncommon fashion, and are not themselves certain what will happen to them when the body eventually dies. They've been trying to live "as a human" since then, and seem to feel responsibility to the absent Tina 1.0, and regret for having caused her death.

So, they seem to be unusual demons in a bunch of ways, and a lot of the "why" hasn't ever been explained.

I think the fact that they are trying to live as a human, within the human world, and are struggling with human ethical issues, is quite important. Phix made a point of the latter... and a lot of what human ethics are about, is the ability and willingness to see each situation through the eyes of all of the people involved rather than just consider your own personal self-interest. That "seeing" could be considered to be a form of effective communication... so maybe the ability to do it is part of what a soul is about?

And what the hell is Bia up to? Is she even up to anything, or was Bia just a figment of Tina's dream? Was it a dream?

"Am I a man dreaming that I am a butterfly, or was I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?"

And how does the connection between the demons and the body of Tina work?

Dunno. I'm guessing that it's something akin to a tap directly into portions of Tina's nervous system - sort of like the new, advanced limb-replacement prosthetics use these days, but in reverse... injecting activity into the motor nerves, and reading activity coming back on the sensory nerves.

[GlytchMeister]

That's some really great stuff, Dave. The soul=spackle concept is very fascinating. I hadn't really thought of it like that...
I'll be mulling this over for a while. Thanks for the ponder fuel!

[shadowinthelight]

Just a thought but I wonder if a factor has to do with what Tina said about their punishment. I don't remember the exact wording but she said something to the respect of being tied to this timeline. That suggests the demons' memories weren't just erased, but they were in some way cut off from the normal quantum multi-time/space existence. It would make sense for a human soul, while alive at least, to exist linearly so there is some similarity there.

[GlytchMeister]

Just a thought but I wonder if a factor has to do with what Tina said about their punishment. I don't remember the exact wording but she said something to the respect of being tied to this timeline. That suggests the demons' memories weren't just erased, but they were in some way cut off from the normal quantum multi-time/space existence. It would make sense for a human soul, while alive at least, to exist linearly so there is some similarity there.

Are you talking about when Tina said if she harmed an innocent (or something) time would stand still? I think that happened when she spilled coffee on Bud and freaked out.
Yeah, that's a heck if a thing... The actions of some demons running a body can stop time... And this hasn't been explained or even retconned why?
That could have sooo many effects... Especially when your concept of time has been radically influenced by Doctor Who...

[jwhouk]

Shelly already acknowledged way way back that her demons helped "hurt" Monica. Thing is, Tina apparently forgot it the second after Shelly spoke it.

[GlytchMeister]

*narrows eyes*
Intriguing... I'd stoke my beard at this point if I had one (or could even grow one...).

I'm kinda torn between doing another archive binge/hunt for clues... Or not doing that because it takes me forever to find what I'm looking for.

[shadowinthelight]

Yes, the time standing still bit is what I was remembering. I think people are taking her way too literal. If a being used to existing out of what we consider normal space and time suddenly found itself bound to one linear place and timeline it would probably feel like it was stuck still.

[GlytchMeister]

Yes, the time standing still bit is what I was remembering. I think people are taking her way too literal. If a being used to existing out of what we consider normal space and time suddenly found itself bound to one linear place and timeline it would probably feel like it was stuck still.

It's all a matter of perspective! HAH HAH! That is very clever! Oh, that gives me a whole new point of view on how the demon world works! The concept of a... A pocket universe where time either didn't exist or was governed by a completely different set of mathematics absolutely baffled me, but now... this...
The demon universe experiences time the way we experience space! We know that all of space is out there, all at the same time. And we experience time bit by bit...
For demons, on the other hand, all of time is "out there", all at once, and they experience something else bit by bit...

Awww, man! Now I have to deal with some vague extra dimension... Crap. What comes after time?

[jwhouk]

Uh, maybe US News & World Report on the magazine shelves?

For everyone in the Confusion Corner, here are 10 reasons why we're all stuck here.

[GlytchMeister]

Dimensions higher than the three run-of-the-mill ones we muddle through every day are in the realm of string theories and the like.
... *headdesk*
Damnit Jim, in an engineer, not a theoretical physicist! I make doodads, I don't know jack about crap like curled up dimensions that fit in a point in spacetime. Hell, I have issues with relativity, and don't even get me started on quantum mechanics.
Ungh... I think I'll focus on Tina for now, and I'll tackle the laws of physics in a pocket universe that exists on a higher dimensional set than ours once I've passed the relevant physics courses.
Expert string theorists (or anyone who knows what they're talking about, anyway), feel free to weigh in.