Wapsi Square Forum

tl;dr: Good idea, but the underlying problem with the "share the road" concept still applies: getting the friggin' gas-hogs to care about their two-wheeled, muscle-powered brethren.

<rant>
As an avid cyclist, I'm a big proponent of "share-the-road" laws that give bicycles (and cyclists) equal standing on the road with ICE/Hybrid/Electric vehicles (e.g. cars), as well as giving them proportional responsibilities (if I'm going 60 in a 25 on my bike after a big downhill and a cop sees me, he can write me a ticket - it just doesn't go on my driver's license). Thing is, drivers in STR states often don't understand the fact that they live in such a state and/or don't care. I personally have had a close encounter where a car pulled out into the oncoming lane to pass me (I was in the center of my lane passing a parked car) and then makes a sharp right just in front of me, on an uphill curve. Never a cop when you need one, sadly. On the flip side, I see idiots on bikes quite often - no helmet, poorly adjusted, dark clothing with no lights/reflectors at night, wrong side of the road, etc.

Hell, motorcycles get more respect than we do.

So, while this is a good idea, and might help a little in areas where the drivers pay attention at all, it doesn't solve the underlying problems of lack of education, lack of enforcement, lack of respect and lack of care.
</rant>

As a driver, I feel like most of the cyclist should have their bicycles removed from them. Houston is covered with bike lanes stolen from the car lanes - ignoring the fact that we have a thousand (or more) times more cars than bikes on most of those roads. So, what used to be four lanes (two each way) becomes two lanes with a turn lane, or a two lane road with a turn lane becomes two lanes with NOTHING.

Okay, that's fine - if we had bicyclists that actually obeyed ANY of the laws. Instead, they do the following.

Ride on the sidewalks instead of the bike lane (why bother with the lane then?)
Ride the wrong way - either on the road, or the sidewalk.
Run red lights
Run red lights in front of CARS.
Fail to signal turn intent
cross intersections at angles.
Ride in and out of traffic randomly (see failure to signal) when stopped or slow.
No reflectors or light clothing, and riding the wrong way, etc.

Oh yeah - and the cops ignore it, because it's not like the cyclist has to worry about having his license withheld - they can even (and probably do) give a fake name that can't be checked, so even tickets get ignored.

I really don't understand why these people have managed to survive. A week or two ago there was a black man, wearing black clothing, riding a bike the wrong way down the street - weaving back and forth into the main lanes (not even staying in the bike lane), with little to no street lights. The only reflector was one clamped to the spokes of one wheel - which only works for people coming up on the side.

The biggest problem? If he got hit by someone, they'd automatically assume it was the car's fault. My attitude? Whatever has the slowest change of vector has the right of way. It's harder to stop a car, or change direction safely, than to move a bike, or a pedestrian to jump back out of the way.

Instead, the laws are backwards. The bigger you are, the more you have to be responsible for the morons who can't watch where they are going.

Speaking as someone who always obeyed the traffic laws scrupulously when i was riding bikes in Atlanta (and almost lost an arm when an idiot turned left across my path) and had more than one incident when drivers intentionally attempted to intimidate me or force me off the road ... let's just say that there were times i wished i was carrying a heavy handgun.

(I did leave Size Thirteen dents in at least two car doors and took out one headlight with a one-pound-plus padlock on the end of a seven-foot chain.)

Bookworm wrote:As a driver, I feel like most of the cyclist should have their bicycles removed from them.

There are many people who feel the same way about numerous drivers... but that kind of attitude does not help anyone in the least.

Bookworm wrote:Houston is covered with bike lanes stolen from the car lanes - ignoring the fact that we have a thousand (or more) times more cars than bikes on most of those roads.

So you are admitting that there is a lot of traffic, and that it wouldn't hurt to reduce it a little, to reduce on traffic jams, smog, and other negative aspects of having so many people driving around? It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation... will there be more cyclists once lanes are put in, or will lanes be made once there are enough cyclists? Make it easier for cyclists to ride around town safely, and there will be more of them using the lanes...

Bookworm wrote:So, what used to be four lanes (two each way) becomes two lanes with a turn lane, or a two lane road with a turn lane becomes two lanes with NOTHING.

If driving conditions are so dreary, why not bike?
Or take public transit...

Bookworm wrote:Okay, that's fine - if we had bicyclists that actually obeyed ANY of the laws. Instead, they do the following.

Ride on the sidewalks instead of the bike lane (why bother with the lane then?)
Ride the wrong way - either on the road, or the sidewalk.
Run red lights
Run red lights in front of CARS.
Fail to signal turn intent
cross intersections at angles.
Ride in and out of traffic randomly (see failure to signal) when stopped or slow.
No reflectors or light clothing, and riding the wrong way, etc.

Yes there are, sadly, cyclists who do indeed behave that way. But a large number of cyclists do follow the laws. People just don't notice that as much... It is a fact of human nature that we will most likely notice that which offends...

Bookworm wrote:Oh yeah - and the cops ignore it,

Actually, cops are more likely to close a blind eye to vehicular bullying of bikes... many advocacy groups have the numbers to prove it.

Bookworm wrote: because it's not like the cyclist has to worry about having his license withheld - they can even (and probably do) give a fake name that can't be checked, so even tickets get ignored.

Actually, cyclist can and do get tickets, and they can lose points on their driver's license when they have one, even for a bicycle-related offense. And if they don't have one, and choose to not pay the tickets, it can bite them in the butt later, when they want to get a driver's license, and can't because of unpaid tickets...

Bookworm wrote:I really don't understand why these people have managed to survive. A week or two ago there was a black man, wearing black clothing, riding a bike the wrong way down the street - weaving back and forth into the main lanes (not even staying in the bike lane), with little to no street lights. The only reflector was one clamped to the spokes of one wheel - which only works for people coming up on the side.

That is how you recognize the serious from the non-serious cyclist. Not by whether they belong to a bike club or not, but by whether they know their stuff... They've looked it up, they know how well lit they need to be, and so on. The one you saw has a bike as a hobby, not as regular transportation...

Bookworm wrote:The biggest problem? If he got hit by someone, they'd automatically assume it was the car's fault.

While I won't look up examples, I can guarantee you that is not the case. I've come across many cases where no driver was prosecuted when they should have been, where a driver intimidating a cyclist, or passing a bike dangerously close, never even kept the police's attention... Car drivers can be real bullies, when they feel they're being "impinged upon" by cyclists...

Bookworm wrote:My attitude? Whatever has the slowest change of vector has the right of way. It's harder to stop a car, or change direction safely, than to move a bike, or a pedestrian to jump back out of the way.

Pedestrians jump out of the way? The onus is on the bigger, more dangerous vehicle to be all the more careful. Unless a pedestrian was jaywalking, there is no reason he should have to jump back out of the way. Unless a bike was riding in the wrong direction (i.e. against traffic), there is no reason they should move out of the way the moment a car wants to pass them.

Why shouldn't the faster vehicles make way, make allowance for the slower road users to continue unhindered? After all, once a car passes a bike, or a car waits for a pedestrian to cross the street, before making a right turn, that car will be able to speed away, while the slower road user will still be plodding along...

Bookworm wrote:Instead, the laws are backwards. The bigger you are, the more you have to be responsible for the morons who can't watch where they are going.

So you're saying that I should feel no remorse, when someone cuts me off in his car, in order to turn right, in front of me, if I ram him with the bus I'm driving? After all, I'm the bigger one in this scenario, and he's "the moron who can't watch where he's going," right? I shouldn't even bother trying to avoid the accident, because he's a moron? No, my friend. It makes all the sense in the world that the bigger you are, the more you watch out for the smaller ones. Doing it the other way around simply encourages bullying and reckless behavior on the part of the vehicle drivers.

Bookworm: Let me simplify this issue:

You're wrong.

Fairportfan wrote:Bookworm: Let me simplify this issue:

You're wrong.

Where's a thumbs up smiley when you need one...

lake_wrangler wrote:

Fairportfan wrote:Bookworm: Let me simplify this issue:

You're wrong.

Where's a thumbs up smiley when you need one...

And, he forgot to say "Nanny nanny poo poo!" as well. -1 for style opportunity missed.

Frankly, I don't believe I am.

I'd say that for every bicycle I see that waits at the light - JUST LIKE I DO, I see at -least- sixty that don't.

Before you continue on with the "Bookworm's an asshole driver who hates cyclists" rant, I'll point out the following.

When a bicycle is in the street ahead of me, I do NOT rush past it. Even when I can pass, I slow down. I grant the 3/4 road that's required by the law (and is a darned good idea anyway. The wind blast from any vehicle can cause severe problems). If I don't have that 3/4, I don't try to crowd the bike - I wait until I can safely pass (or the bike moves to the side). However, even those bikers don't tend to bother to use their hands to signal. I'm wondering if anyone even _teaches_ that anymore. I know I learned it in driver's education long after I already knew it. (We won't talk about the bikers that suddenly change from the right to riding on the left - the wrong way down the street - before turning somewhere)

Houston is a TERRIBLE city for bicycles. Bicycles are great for cities that are much more compact, or at least centralized around 'zones'. Houston doesn't work that way. It's 75 miles wide, and 50 miles tall (minimum), and I doubt that the average person lives less than 15 miles from their work. I'd personally love to be able to use a bike. *pppbbbththt* Not happening. The closest office building to where I live is a mile away, and it's only a 5 story tiny bugger. The next ones are three miles away, and the big ones are four to five (Downtown, as a matter of fact) as the crow flies. To get there, you'd have to bike through some of the nastiest sections of town, and pass at least ..... nine lights, and three stops signs? to get to the edge of downtown. Then there's a light every block. (I also can't do it anyway - I'm a self employed computer tech. I put about ninty miles on my car today, and never got more than 20 miles from downtown)

It's also a terrible city for mass transit, but that's another argument.

When I was going to university - I wore rollerblades. IT was faster than walking, biking, and definitely faster than trying to move my car from one side of campus to the other.

Dangers in vehicles. You're thinking in terms of speed. I'm thinking in terms of time to change vectors, or alterations in velocity. I can't tell you how many times I've watched people just step straight out into traffic with the blythe assumption that since they were on foot, they didn't have to pay attention. Hit one, even if they just ran in front of you, and you're automatically a murderer. Heck, when I used to ride a bike (HS days), I still had problems with people walking in front. Who can respond more quickly - the person moving at 35 mph in an automobile, or the person standing still four feet from the curb? Who has the better chance of getting out of the way WITHOUT risking everything around them? Look at the ROW rules for sailboats vs powerboats, for example. Powerboats CAN change vector much more easily than sailboats, which is why _in general_ sailboats get right of way (unless overtaking the powerboat. Sailboats also have to yield right of way to much larger boats for the same reason that powerboats have to yield to sailboats - the big boats have a much harder time maneuvering and stopping)

Tickets? You're dreaming. SERIOUSLY dreaming. I get on a bike, I run two stop signs and a red light; I get pulled over (fat chance) by a tax-gatherer... Sorry, police officer. He tells me I'm going to get a ticket. I tell him that I don't have a driver's license, and that my name is Fernando Guillermo, and I live at 14 East Monkeyshines Lane. I then get a ticket for Fernando Guillermo. I throw it away once he's out of sight.

As my name _isn't_ Fernando, how is anyone going to 'ding' my license, or otherwise enforce any real penalties against me? The only way to make it _work_ is the one that everyone would be screaming bloody blue murder about. Take the bicycle away, and drop the guy off at his house. To get the bike back, he pays the fine. Do you think that's likely to happen? I don't. We have enough of a problem with people driving cars illegally, and they _keep driving_. Bicycles are small potatoes. (I wouldn't mind seeing the fines for bikes be a lot smaller in this case, with a voucher for a bus pass to get to the place to pay and retrieve)

So, you want respect? Get the bike riders to be even _a quarter_ as responsible as car drivers. (and that's not saying much). I think that most of the time anymore, there's no respect for bicyclists because the bulk of the cyclists have shown zero respect for the laws and everyone else out there. Even pedestrians tend to show more respect, and they have a NASTY habit of walking out in traffic against the 'don't walk' signs because "who cares about those people turning." It's a far cry from when I was growing up and we'd see 40-60 cyclists run down the road, two abreast, staggered, every Saturday morning.

I don't know, sometimes I wonder how people even have enough brains to breathe, let alone keep from committing suicide by lemming every time it rains.

Bookworm wrote:Tickets? You're dreaming. SERIOUSLY dreaming. I get on a bike, I run two stop signs and a red light; I get pulled over (fat chance) by a tax-gatherer... Sorry, police officer. He tells me I'm going to get a ticket. I tell him that I don't have a driver's license, and that my name is Fernando Guillermo, and I live at 14 East Monkeyshines Lane. I then get a ticket for Fernando Guillermo. I throw it away once he's out of sight..

Wrong. You and your bike take a trip downtown.

Bookworm wrote:I'd say that for every bicycle I see that waits at the light - JUST LIKE I DO, I see at -least- sixty that don't.

Sounds about the same as the ratio of bad car drivers. Cyclists aren't the problem, people are the problem. It isn't even a lack of education. Everyone with a license passed the test. It's the fact that people don't give a damn and do what they want. You need to stop focusing on the other guy and see the problems are on both sides.

Fairportfan wrote:

Bookworm wrote:Tickets? You're dreaming. SERIOUSLY dreaming. I get on a bike, I run two stop signs and a red light; I get pulled over (fat chance) by a tax-gatherer... Sorry, police officer. He tells me I'm going to get a ticket. I tell him that I don't have a driver's license, and that my name is Fernando Guillermo, and I live at 14 East Monkeyshines Lane. I then get a ticket for Fernando Guillermo. I throw it away once he's out of sight..

Wrong. You and your bike take a trip downtown.

Clearly, you have never lived in Houston.

For what it is worth, no one in Houston knows how to commute. It's not worth your life to risk 57, particularly not if you actually need to be somewhere on time. It's not just the drivers or the cyclists, it's every last one of 'em.

And no, mass transit is NOT an option in Houston. Hell, even Dallas has a better mass transit system. Oh good lord, I just said something positive about DART... maybe the Mayans are right and the world IS coming to an end...

Bookworm wrote:Before you continue on with the "Bookworm's an asshole driver who hates cyclists" rant, I'll point out the following.

I'd like to go on record as saying far be it from me to ever imply such a thing. We may have divergent opinions, and yours is clearly wrong (just kidding), but I will not stoop to that kind of language/attitude. Yes, I may take quite some time to deconstruct someone's argument, but I still do it in a respectful manner.

My thumbs up post was related to being amused by the succinctness of Fairportfan's post, which immediately followed the lengthy comment I had posted.

Admittedly, his post could have been funnier:

Fairportfan [i]should [/i]have wrote:Bookworm: Let me 'splain.
[pause]
No, there is too much. Let me sum up: You're wrong.

shadowinthelight wrote:

Bookworm wrote:I'd say that for every bicycle I see that waits at the light - JUST LIKE I DO, I see at -least- sixty that don't.

Sounds about the same as the ratio of bad car drivers. Cyclists aren't the problem, people are the problem. It isn't even a lack of education. Everyone with a license passed the test. It's the fact that people don't give a damn and do what they want. You need to stop focusing on the other guy and see the problems are on both sides.

Hear hear!

You know, the way drivers complain about cyclists, and cyclists complain about drivers, it makes me think of a scene from the 1960 Disney movie Pollyanna:

Reverend Ford: [reading Pollyanna's locket] When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will. - Abraham Lincoln.
Pollyanna Whittier: He was President.
Reverend Ford: Yes, I know... but I've never heard *that* before.

Bookworm wrote:Houston is a TERRIBLE city for bicycles. Bicycles are great for cities that are much more compact, or at least centralized around 'zones'. Houston doesn't work that way. It's 75 miles wide, and 50 miles tall (minimum), and I doubt that the average person lives less than 15 miles from their work. I'd personally love to be able to use a bike. *pppbbbththt* Not happening. The closest office building to where I live is a mile away, and it's only a 5 story tiny bugger. The next ones are three miles away, and the big ones are four to five (Downtown, as a matter of fact) as the crow flies. To get there, you'd have to bike through some of the nastiest sections of town, and pass at least ..... nine lights, and three stops signs? to get to the edge of downtown. Then there's a light every block. (I also can't do it anyway - I'm a self employed computer tech. I put about ninty miles on my car today, and never got more than 20 miles from downtown).

While I'm not going to get too caught up in this argument, I will agree with Bookworm on this point. Biking is a more viable solution when you don't have much of a commute and/or you live in a more compact city. Additionally, Houston gets HOT and MUGGY as hell in the summer. In a place like that, it's a good idea to just forget about the idea of commuting to work without being in an enclosed, air-conditioned compartment of some sort! Unless, of course, you happen to work in a place that provides showers so you don't make your office more fragrant than it needs to be.

I also tend to agree that (at least in Dallas) very few cyclists are really given much "road safety/etiquette" education. It would be nice if commuter/road cyclists were required to get licenses (for themselves and their bikes) that also required a kind of drivers' ed like automobile drivers do. Then, if you're seen biking on a road without proper licensing on your bike, you get pulled over by a cop...and if you're breaking traffic laws, you get pulled over and there's no way to fake who you are (if that's an option, since FPF has a point about being taken downtown). Your bike is a registered vehicle, and you're required to carry your biking license (even if it's the same as your drivers license, but with an extra "class" listed to show you're an approved road-biker) just like you do when in a car. *shrugs* If they're going to share the roadways, it makes sense to me that they have to be subject to similar processes and laws.

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:Hell, even Dallas has a better mass transit system. Oh good lord, I just said something positive about DART... maybe the Mayans are right and the world IS coming to an end...

Thanks for that laugh. I will say this about DART (or at least the DART Rail): It has made going to the State Fair a much more pleasant experience than it used to be. My husband and I also prefer it to paying for parking at the American Airlines Center when we go to a hockey game (not that we've been able to do that anytime recently ). Otherwise, I think that the mass transit system here is a mess...and I have a lot of respect for people who use it regularly instead of driving everywhere.

Julie wrote:

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:Hell, even Dallas has a better mass transit system. Oh good lord, I just said something positive about DART... maybe the Mayans are right and the world IS coming to an end...

Thanks for that laugh. I will say this about DART (or at least the DART Rail): It has made going to the State Fair a much more pleasant experience than it used to be. My husband and I also prefer it to paying for parking at the American Airlines Center when we go to a hockey game (not that we've been able to do that anytime recently ). Otherwise, I think that the mass transit system here is a mess...and I have a lot of respect for people who use it regularly instead of driving everywhere.

Granted, it's good for getting into or out of downtown Dallas, should you be silly enough to willingly do so. Assuming you happen to live on one of the rail lines. So pretty much it's viable if you live in Garland or Farmer's Branch. Better than trying to drive, anyways. Cheaper too, considering how much parking costs downtown. A day DART pass is like 8 bucks. Ten if you want to go far enough east that you end up on the TRE (the Fort Worth mass transit system... yes, it's ran by a different company, with different regulations, and until about five years ago stubbornly refused to partner up with DART in the least). Parking alone is at least that much. Granted, that also grants access to the TRE, and I *BELIEVE* they've finished the extension over by 360 to get you into D/FW International Airport via train, but maybe not.

Yes, that's right. It's a mass transit system near one of the largest airports in the world, and until maybe a year ago at earliest, it didn't connect. You literally had to take a bus or train to somewhere close, then call a cab to get you the rest of the way in. And even then, you have to pay an extra couple of bucks for TRE access just to get there from the DART system.

And yet it is STILL better than Houston's.

Fairportfan wrote:Speaking as someone who always obeyed the traffic laws scrupulously when i was riding bikes in Atlanta (and almost lost an arm when an idiot turned left across my path) and had more than one incident when drivers intentionally attempted to intimidate me or force me off the road ... let's just say that there were times i wished i was carrying a heavy handgun.

One of my favorite rants applies here: We have been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for how long, and I still can't get Army surplus RPGs for canoe trips!?

Typeminer wrote:

Fairportfan wrote:Speaking as someone who always obeyed the traffic laws scrupulously when i was riding bikes in Atlanta (and almost lost an arm when an idiot turned left across my path) and had more than one incident when drivers intentionally attempted to intimidate me or force me off the road ... let's just say that there were times i wished i was carrying a heavy handgun.

One of my favorite rants applies here: We have been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for how long, and I still can't get Army surplus RPGs for canoe trips!?

Wot - do you hear banjos?

Fairportfan wrote:

Typeminer wrote:

Fairportfan wrote:Speaking as someone who always obeyed the traffic laws scrupulously when i was riding bikes in Atlanta (and almost lost an arm when an idiot turned left across my path) and had more than one incident when drivers intentionally attempted to intimidate me or force me off the road ... let's just say that there were times i wished i was carrying a heavy handgun.

One of my favorite rants applies here: We have been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for how long, and I still can't get Army surplus RPGs for canoe trips!?

Wot - do you hear banjos?

Thats the point, If you had an RPG you would not hear any... well not as many.

I think the preferred method is to practice your pig calls after setting up the claymores...

Typeminer wrote:One of my favorite rants applies here: We have been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for how long, and I still can't get Army surplus RPGs for canoe trips!?

What... you don't take along one of those nice free-market Daisy Cutter knockoffs? Yes, they're civilian-made rather than mil-spec, but that doesn't seem to detract from their enthusiasm!