Wapsi Square Forum

Hmmm -- both edges of the sword at once! Nice maneuver.

Still, sometimes looking backward helps you move forward!

Phix wrote:How fucked up is that?

Pretty darned fucked up.

"Redemption of a Titan" sounds like it would make a good novel.

Well in spite of getting what was going down all screwed up at first, I like the direction of Bia's arc in this story. Towards the greater good is always a good direction to go.

At some point Phix and Shelly should talk about him; I'm sure they've done so a lot off camera, but it would be nice to see what they're sharing now. His mother will be interested in hearing all the little slice-of-life stuff that happens at the garage, just because he's her son. Phix must be at least a little curious, even if she can never bring herself to take on human form and visit Shelly where he's likely to be.

"Now go help little Adolf with his Hebrew lessons, Bia."


Well, that was my initial reaction. Obviously, Bia wasn't the worst manipulator of mankind in Wapsi.

And titans aren't humans. I had scrawled out some long-winded bit of business on my iPad about the difference between Olympian just-so stories and the madness that would be implied for human morality if they were real.

But all that just leads to the real question here: What is divine forgiveness? How can innocence unilaterally be restored to the experienced? That's what Christian myth has been building on, and when sincerity alone is assumed to allow for divine forgiveness... well, human morality isn't done any favors.

Bia's condition is effectively the opposite of Conscience's: Remembering everything, and frightening no one. She can only fully understand all she's done by holding the perspective of her victims. ...Which is part of the Christian founding myth that has been little revisited in the past 1700 years.


What Would Pallas Do?

Phix is a much nicer person than I thought. Or maybe she's been absorbing some of the grand-daughter's wisdom.

And Baby Bia begins her first lesson on experiencing the Human Condition: If you could erase all the bad things you've done, you can never understand what was so bad about them to begin with.

Very interesting! This is an excellent growth opportunity that Bia has been forced to endure. The whims of the gods and Titans in Wapsi-world may be dangerous at times for humans, but it's nice to see that they occasionally get things right.

And now it begins - needles and pins (3 days until a new Mr. P fix) . Oh well - gives all the more aware folks time to work up a prediction for Monday.

Yamara wrote:But all that just leads to the real question here: What is divine forgiveness? How can innocence unilaterally be restored to the experienced? That's what Christian myth has been building on, and when sincerity alone is assumed to allow for divine forgiveness... well, human morality isn't done any favors.

Bia's condition is effectively the opposite of Conscience's: Remembering everything, and frightening no one. She can only fully understand all she's done by holding the perspective of her victims. ...Which is part of the Christian founding myth that has been little revisited in the past 1700 years.

I'm reminded of a clever distinction between Christianity and Judiasm: Christians seek the Right Answers, Jews seek the Right Questions. The Buddhist Eightfold Path seems to cover both goals.

Keep in mind, though -- Forgiving is not Condoning. Many people trip up on that one, and grudges become very heavy in the long run.

as363 wrote:(3 days until a new Mr. P fix)

Pfix?

Yamara wrote:But all that just leads to the real question here: What is divine forgiveness? How can innocence unilaterally be restored to the experienced? That's what Christian myth has been building on, and when sincerity alone is assumed to allow for divine forgiveness... well, human morality isn't done any favors.

Bia's condition is effectively the opposite of Conscience's: Remembering everything, and frightening no one. She can only fully understand all she's done by holding the perspective of her victims. ...Which is part of the Christian founding myth that has been little revisited in the past 1700 years.

In Bia's case, what seems to have been unilaterally restored (by her father) is not "innocence as ignorance", but rather "innocence as a lack of callousness".

The wrongs that Bia did, seem to have occurred as a result of the big bottle of Obsession perfume that was broken over her head by the "Chimera destroys Lanthis and burns everything around her to a crisp" trauma. She seems to have become completely focused on the idea of undoing the damage and "setting things right", and fell into an "The end justifies the means" way of dealing with life... with "the end" being so important and urgent that it would justify any means she chose to use. Her empathy (and thus her conscience and capability for remorse) was lost.

Reducing her powers, returning her to the body of a child, and "hobbling" her with an "adult must approve departure" rule were pragmatic steps to keep her from doing even more damage... but freeing her from her millennia-long obsession, and restoring her ability to see things through the eyes of other people and appreciate the true costs of her actions was the essential part of her "cure".

Now, comes the Penance part of things.

Atomic wrote: I'm reminded of a clever distinction between Christianity and Judiasm: Christians seek the Right Answers, Jews seek the Right Questions. The Buddhist Eightfold Path seems to cover both goals.

Keep in mind, though -- Forgiving is not Condoning. Many people trip up on that one, and grudges become very heavy in the long run.

Yes, that's a tricky one... both for the forgiver and the forgiven.

One way I've seen forgiveness described, is that it's essentially the "letting go of the anger of having been wronged." In this sense, it doesn't un-do the harm done by the wrong, or pretend that the wrong was right, or (importantly) release the wrong-doer from the consequences of having to mitigate the wrong. Rather, it's the act of giving up the grudge... it's saying "I walk away from the act of demanding an eye for an eye; I renounce the choice of insisting that I have the 'right' to harm you in proportion to how you have harmed me."

You can take the act of forgiving further, of course... back to its root words "fore give". "I say that you didn't steal that from me, because I (retroactively) give it to you. You don't have to feel bad about what you did." In this sense, it's a declaration by the wronged person, that s/he has decided that no wrong was actually done... and hence there is no mitigation or penance required. That's where things can get tricky, since this can be interpreted as condoning the action.

In many traditions (but not all), some form of formal penance is an essential part of the forgiveness process... it's critical in "wiping the slate clean". Sometimes it's a nominal penance (a prescribed series or prayers), and sometimes it involves doing practical "good works" of some sort (public service). There are benefits in this, all around. It conveys the message of responsibilty ("if you do a wrong, you'll have to do a compensating 'right' -you can't wipe the slate clean just by begging forgiveness"). And, it conveys the message of fairness and social justice to others - a person who did a wrong doesn't get off "Scot-free" without consequence. And, the forgiven party can perhaps more truly feel that s/he has been forgiven and has "wiped the slate clean", because s/he has acted to restore balance to the situation by performing penance... s/he has still been "punished".

There's been some publicity in recent years about a "Catch-22 in reverse" phenomenon involving "forgiveness as a Get Out Of Jail Free" card. In some countries with strong conservative tribal traditions, so-called "honor killings" of "disobedient" daughters are not uncommon (hundreds to thousands of cases per year). Local traditions say that a daughter must marry according to her father's wishes and instructions, and disobeying (or even saying that she wants to) "dishonors" the family, and the only way for the family to regain its "honor" is for the disobedient daughter to be put to death.

Another tradition among some of those tribes is that the penalty for murder is death ("an eye for an eye") but that the family of the murdered party can forgive the murderer and eliminate the penalty.

So... there have been cases in which a "disobedient" young woman's brothers, or uncles, kill her for her "disobedience". Then, the young woman's closest living relatives (her parents) "forgive" the killers (their sons or brothers), and no one is ever punished.

In this situation, "forgiving" is clearly "condoning".

Emo Bia is emo.

EDIT:

Matthew 18:21-35 (The Message translation) wrote:At that point Peter got up the nerve to ask, “Master, how many times do I forgive a brother or sister who hurts me? Seven?”

Jesus replied, “Seven! Hardly. Try seventy times seven.

“The kingdom of God is like a king who decided to square accounts with his servants. As he got under way, one servant was brought before him who had run up a debt of a hundred thousand dollars. He couldn’t pay up, so the king ordered the man, along with his wife, children, and goods, to be auctioned off at the slave market.

“The poor wretch threw himself at the king’s feet and begged, ‘Give me a chance and I’ll pay it all back.’ Touched by his plea, the king let him off, erasing the debt.

“The servant was no sooner out of the room when he came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him ten dollars. He seized him by the throat and demanded, ‘Pay up. Now!’

“The poor wretch threw himself down and begged, ‘Give me a chance and I’ll pay it all back.’ But he wouldn’t do it. He had him arrested and put in jail until the debt was paid. When the other servants saw this going on, they were outraged and brought a detailed report to the king.

“The king summoned the man and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave your entire debt when you begged me for mercy. Shouldn’t you be compelled to be merciful to your fellow servant who asked for mercy?’ The king was furious and put the screws to the man until he paid back his entire debt. And that’s exactly what my Father in heaven is going to do to each one of you who doesn’t forgive unconditionally anyone who asks for mercy.”

The shadows around Bia's eyes are gone.

Symbolism or not-wearing-makeup?

AnotherFairportfan wrote:The shadows around Bia's eyes are gone.

Symbolism or not-wearing-makeup?

Improved sleeping habits. She had to stop binge-watching reality-TV shows after Phix put her on a curfew.

Dave wrote:

AnotherFairportfan wrote:The shadows around Bia's eyes are gone.

Symbolism or not-wearing-makeup?

Improved sleeping habits. She had to stop binge-watching reality-TV shows after Phix put her on a curfew.

That, or a return to "innocence," such as it might be.

Yamara wrote: .. snippety snip! :E ..
...Which is part of the Christian founding myth that has been little revisited in the past 1700 years.

well I sure hope all those in RL would stop all this ageism, sexism and racism, just because they interpret a 2000 year old book to tell them to do it!!.... :/

The point about forgiveness, et al.. you have to make sure you have *learned* from the mercy of your victim... Bail and tagging are the RL way - It is a 'trial period' - you fail,you go back to prison!...

what we really need is a 'justice field' as in red dwarf!
http://reddwarf.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_World

Dave wrote:

AnotherFairportfan wrote:The shadows around Bia's eyes are gone.

Symbolism or not-wearing-makeup?

Improved sleeping habits. She had to stop binge-watching reality-TV shows after Phix put her on a curfew.

Atomic wrote:

Yamara wrote:But all that just leads to the real question here: What is divine forgiveness? How can innocence unilaterally be restored to the experienced? That's what Christian myth has been building on, and when sincerity alone is assumed to allow for divine forgiveness... well, human morality isn't done any favors.

Bia's condition is effectively the opposite of Conscience's: Remembering everything, and frightening no one. She can only fully understand all she's done by holding the perspective of her victims. ...Which is part of the Christian founding myth that has been little revisited in the past 1700 years.

I'm reminded of a clever distinction between Christianity and Judiasm: Christians seek the Right Answers, Jews seek the Right Questions. The Buddhist Eightfold Path seems to cover both goals.

Keep in mind, though -- Forgiving is not Condoning. Many people trip up on that one, and grudges become very heavy in the long run.

Welcome to what happens when a concept is brought up several thousand years ago and twisted around by others (usually for reasons of control) over and over again until it is almost nothing like its former self so you rename it. In my studies I have found that every single religion had its origins in a time before the current religion. Even the Biblical Flood story has its origins in several religions that predate Judaism which is the forebear of Christianity. When are people going to realize that we do not need a better religion. what we need is a better humanity. (Sorry for the tirade but the thread sort of topped off some BS that I have been putting up with today )

Mark N wrote:what we need is a better humanity.

Sorry but Humanity 2.0 is still in alpha status. There's been no word on how long until beta testing begins.