How Silly Is That 2014-01-20

[Jabberwonky]

Looking at Atsali in that profile shot, my immediate thought was that the only real justification for that outfit would be a mountain and a team of Sherpas.

The backpack? They are surprisingly handy for carrying stuff.

Then there is the possibility that Atsali has some counterweights at the bottom of the pack

I dunno - it's the combination of the backpack and the jacket and the hat - which looks like a Tyrolean hat from the side - that just said "Mountains!" to me.

Actually, probably not with Sherpas, though, come to think - a bunch of Austrians singing "Val-da-ree, Val-da-rah!", more likely.

When I think of mountain climbing expeditions....

[NOTDilbert]

Fish just probably think, I see a bug. I'll go eat it.

Fish aren't capable of thoughts that complex. Their entire vocabulary consists only two words: "Food?" and "Yikes!"

I've waved my finger in front of enough fish tanks to know they also know "Huh?"

And the ever-popular "Mate?"

(Can't believe this crowd overlooked sex....)

"Don't drink the water, fish f**k in it" - W.C. Fields

[Catawampus]

Tina's body goes into reduced activity mode once a day or so, but it has no consciousness so can't really be said to sleep. The demons do have consciousness, but apparently stay awake and aware of things all of the time. Tina's body can't dream because there's nothing there to do the dreaming (as far as we know), and the Tina demon collective doesn't dream because they don't sleep. So, a realistic dream while asleep and not realising that you're asleep would be rather a traumatic thing for a demon to suddenly experience without warning.

Doesn't anyone sleep around here?

Can't sleep. Bia might get me.

Was the whole Bia thing "all just a dream"?

I somehow doubt that it was just a dream. There was probably significantly more to it than to an ordinary dream.

And wait til Tina drops the "I dream of Bia" bomb....

But does Bia have light brown hair?

The backpack? They are surprisingly handy for carrying stuff.

Then there is the possibility that Atsali has some counterweights at the bottom of the pack

Parachute. For her fear of falling.

Well, I'll stand to be corrected on this, but technically speaking stars don't give off light, they give off energy/radiation some of which (a narrow band) humans perceive as 'light'. Or something like that

Hmmm. . .I suppose that you could say that stars don't give off the mental symbology that we assign to the stellar radiation that we call light. What we see as light doesn't actually exist in the physical world, it's just how our brains interpret the radiation that our eyes intercept. So light exists, but our perceived idea of what light actually looks like doesn't. We could theoretically perceive light as something totally different, such as the taste of tuna or the smell of pencils, or some sensory perception that we can't even imagine because we don't have anything like it ourselves. Demons see the radiation without the mental interpretation that we attach to it.

5. Somewhere along the line, Tina's demons gain a conscience and morals...

I think that demons always had morals, just not necessarily ones that match up with the average human's. As for a conscience. . .hmmm. They'd probably have something like that already, too, but in line with their own sense of morality and not with ours. Even if it does need to be enforced by sphinx law, there would need to be a conscience there to start with. Otherwise the law wouldn't really work as a deterrent, because there'd be no inner voice telling the demon, "Nah, you'd better not do that. Phix will stomp you."

Okay, knowing all the above, We've been shown that Tina sleeps... so wouldn't it stand to reason her demons knows what sleep is?

Knowing abstractly that something exists and experiencing it directly can be very different things.

*throws up my hands and stomps off to confusion corner*

At least you didn't do as Tina, and throw up a tentacle. . .

Or at least, I hope that you didn't.

With any luck you will be able to appear rational and sane around others when you have completed the program.

We have high hopes that at least one of us here will eventually manage to project that sort of image.

[illiad]

weeeelll its getting late, so we should have some sort of answer in about 6 or 7 hours!!!

[jwhouk]

The pizza part is because demons love pizza. Doubt told Monica as much. The more exotic, the better.

[Fairportfan]

The pizza part is because demons love pizza. Doubt told Monica as much. The more exotic, the better.

"...with no anchovies".

[Grantwhy]

Then there is the possibility that Atsali has some counterweights at the bottom of the pack

When I was in school we used to call those "textbooks". And since everyone had to carry them I think you've got the whole counterweight thing the wrong way around. I distinctly remember falling backwards a few times when I had math and science homework on the same day.

True, but I'm guessing you didn't recently have your centre of gravity moved forward somewhat, as has happened to Atsali

*random idea *
The backpack could even be a 'training technique' from Monica to get Atsali to stand straight, and not hunch forward to try and appear shorter and/or less buxom?

[Grantwhy]

Well, I'll stand to be corrected on this, but technically speaking stars don't give off light, they give off energy/radiation some of which (a narrow band) humans perceive as 'light'. Or something like that

Hmmm. . .I suppose that you could say that stars don't give off the mental symbology that we assign to the stellar radiation that we call light. What we see as light doesn't actually exist in the physical world, it's just how our brains interpret the radiation that our eyes intercept. So light exists, but our perceived idea of what light actually looks like doesn't. We could theoretically perceive light as something totally different, such as the taste of tuna or the smell of pencils, or some sensory perception that we can't even imagine because we don't have anything like it ourselves. Demons see the radiation without the mental interpretation that we attach to it.

Ok, I'm repeating something I heard on QI, so I might be getting this wrong.

In a room set up a torch on one wall aimed at the far wall. Turn on the torch. Turn off all other sources of light (full closed room, no external light).

Now, we will be able to the source of the light and where the light hits the far wall, but we will NOT (apparently) see the beam of light itself.

"Light" is for want of better words/descriptions is invisible to the human eye unless it is reflecting/refracting off/through something.

Or something like that

[GlytchMeister]

Well, I'll stand to be corrected on this, but technically speaking stars don't give off light, they give off energy/radiation some of which (a narrow band) humans perceive as 'light'. Or something like that

Hmmm. . .I suppose that you could say that stars don't give off the mental symbology that we assign to the stellar radiation that we call light. What we see as light doesn't actually exist in the physical world, it's just how our brains interpret the radiation that our eyes intercept. So light exists, but our perceived idea of what light actually looks like doesn't. We could theoretically perceive light as something totally different, such as the taste of tuna or the smell of pencils, or some sensory perception that we can't even imagine because we don't have anything like it ourselves. Demons see the radiation without the mental interpretation that we attach to it.

Ok, I'm repeating something I heard on QI, so I might be getting this wrong.

In a room set up a torch on one wall aimed at the far wall. Turn on the torch. Turn off all other sources of light (full closed room, no external light).

Now, we will be able to the source of the light and where the light hits the far wall, but we will NOT (apparently) see the beam of light itself.

"Light" is for want of better words/descriptions is invisible to the human eye unless it is reflecting/refracting off/through something.

Or something like that

Human eyes can only detect light when it enters them. Photons that miss our pupils are never detected or interpreted (not counting the ones that make our skin warm and give us sunburn, that's beside the point). Only the small percentage of photons that just so happen to emit, reflect, and refract into those tiny black targets (bullseye!) are detected by the rod and cone cells that line our retinae.

And since all light has at one point or another been emitted (that's how it's made) and all light that we just so happen to see has been refracted (our eyes do that), I suppose one could humans can only see light that has been emitted, reflected, and/or refracted.
But that's like saying we can only eat peanut butter and jelly sandwitches that have been A) been made somehow, and B) are sandwitches that contain peanut butter and jelly.

*places a veterinary eye care textbook into the pun jar*

[Mark N]

Human eyes can only detect light when it enters them. Photons that miss our pupils are never detected or interpreted (not counting the ones that make our skin warm and give us sunburn, that's beside the point). Only the small percentage of photons that just so happen to emit, reflect, and refract into those tiny black targets (bullseye!) are detected by the rod and cone cells that line our retinae.

And since all light has at one point or another been emitted (that's how it's made) and all light that we just so happen to see has been refracted (our eyes do that), I suppose one could humans can only see light that has been emitted, reflected, and/or refracted.
But that's like saying we can only eat peanut butter and jelly sandwitches that have been A) been made somehow, and B) are sandwitches that contain peanut butter and jelly.

*places a veterinary eye care textbook into the pun jar*

Welcome to the wonderful and wacky world of Quantum mechanics. A world that Tina seems to have been separated from. If that is true then she will start to experience the world like humans do instead of the way her demons have done before. In other words, Tina is in the middle of one hell of a paradigm shift (and you thought midlife crisis were a bitch).

[illiad]

yup, it is a sad fact that 90% cannot think that deeply... 'duh you see light dont you?? ' Dont get me wrong, I have good friends like that!!

there are so many salesmen, that say 'everyone should have this/ use this...' My usual reply is, " a very large part of the world is just too busy **surviving** to bother!! friends of mine have no clue about computers, but are the very top in fields like finance, economics, motors, etc...

A friend of mine was worried that he was not good enough - I said, don't worry mate, you have got that computer going by your self, that's more than most!!

[GlytchMeister]

Welcome to the wonderful and wacky world of Quantum mechanics. A world that Tina seems to have been separated from. If that is true then she will start to experience the world like humans do instead of the way her demons have done before. In other words, Tina is in the middle of one hell of a paradigm shift (and you thought midlife crisis were a bitch).

I kinda thought Tina2.1 sensed the world through Tina's body by... Um... monitoring Tina's nervous system.
...um...
Maybe the way a robot operator would monitor code coming from a robot... Like this?
(Scene from Tina breaking her arm)
ALERT! Arm: pain receptors: 1,046,280/5,391,329 active.
"Oh, wow. That's a lot. Better make the vocal chords scream, and better make the other arm clutch the break site..."
*sends precise shocks into spinal cord, causing the appropriate muscles to contract and expand*

Maybe a demon is assigned the task of monitoring major senses, like sight, and alerts the demons in charge of movement if a customer walks in.
...
Of course, if this is the case, it would take a lot of concentration to pull off, and a level of teamwork I can't even fathom. Maybe demons have a higher cognitive ability than humans?
And now, all of a sudden, the demons no longer "monitor" the nerves and piloting the body from an external view, and are now actually hooked up to the brain and body and are operating the body from a first-person view.
...am I making any sense? I'm stretching my skill with words to the limit, here, for some reason.

[Mark N]

I kinda thought Tina2.1 sensed the world through Tina's body by... Um... monitoring Tina's nervous system.
...um...
Maybe the way a robot operator would monitor code coming from a robot... Like this?
(Scene from Tina breaking her arm)
ALERT! Arm: pain receptors: 1,046,280/5,391,329 active.
"Oh, wow. That's a lot. Better make the vocal chords scream, and better make the other arm clutch the break site..."
*sends precise shocks into spinal cord, causing the appropriate muscles to contract and expand*

Maybe a demon is assigned the task of monitoring major senses, like sight, and alerts the demons in charge of movement if a customer walks in.
...
Of course, if this is the case, it would take a lot of concentration to pull off, and a level of teamwork I can't even fathom. Maybe demons have a higher cognitive ability than humans?
And now, all of a sudden, the demons no longer "monitor" the nerves and piloting the body from an external view, and are now actually hooked up to the brain and body and are operating the body from a first-person view.
...am I making any sense? I'm stretching my skill with words to the limit, here, for some reason.

That would make sense except when Tina broke her arm with the milk thermos she openly said that she FELT pain but could not understand how. That is a point that she started to wonder just how separate she is from other demons.

[GlytchMeister]

I kinda thought Tina2.1 sensed the world through Tina's body by... Um... monitoring Tina's nervous system.
...um...
Maybe the way a robot operator would monitor code coming from a robot... Like this?
(Scene from Tina breaking her arm)
ALERT! Arm: pain receptors: 1,046,280/5,391,329 active.
"Oh, wow. That's a lot. Better make the vocal chords scream, and better make the other arm clutch the break site..."
*sends precise shocks into spinal cord, causing the appropriate muscles to contract and expand*

Maybe a demon is assigned the task of monitoring major senses, like sight, and alerts the demons in charge of movement if a customer walks in.
...
Of course, if this is the case, it would take a lot of concentration to pull off, and a level of teamwork I can't even fathom. Maybe demons have a higher cognitive ability than humans?
And now, all of a sudden, the demons no longer "monitor" the nerves and piloting the body from an external view, and are now actually hooked up to the brain and body and are operating the body from a first-person view.
...am I making any sense? I'm stretching my skill with words to the limit, here, for some reason.

That would make sense except when Tina broke her arm with the milk thermos she openly said that she FELT pain but could not understand how. That is a point that she started to wonder just how separate she is from other demons.

Ah, bugger. I forgot about that bit.
...*switches ADHD ConnectionMaker process to real time priority*
Gimme a sec, I'll find a connection between Tina and something I understand.
...
The Animus! That is from a universe I definitely have experience in!
The Animus, for those of you who don't play video games or have not played Assassin's Creed, is a machine that reads someone's DNA and decodes the sequences that contain genetic memory, then simulates those memories in what I believe to be a modified version of a lucid dream within the mind of a user, but that's all beside the point. What matters in this conversation is how that user described experiencing that simulation:
Desmond Miles, one of those users, suffered from a condition known as "The Bleeding Effect". Desmond remembered the simulated memories as if they were his own, as if he himself had experienced them. It actually caused him difficulties, because he had trouble distinguishing memories of his ancestors from his own, and occasionally would refer to simulated experiences in the first person viewpoint. The coma and everything else is also beside the point, so I'll skip that.
What I'm trying to say is, there's a whole spectrum of how close or distant a mind can feel from a body, a sense, a memory, or a world. At one end is the total disconnect, then there's the classic "out-of-body" experience, then there's the robot operator I mentioned earlier, perhaps the earliest version of Tina2.0 would be around here, then the puppeteer, then maybe somewhere around this point would be Tina during the broken arm incident, then we get to the Animus from Assassin's Creed, then at this point we might find Tina in her present state, and finally true connection.

Could the demons be slowly progressing from the robot operator to the true connection? Are they being... Downloaded into the brain left behind by Tina1.0?

[Dave]

Could the demons be slowly progressing from the robot operator to the true connection? Are they being... Downloaded into the brain left behind by Tina1.0?

Or evolving in a way which establishes such a connection?

The way in which Conscience seems to have been created (a fusion of Tina 1.0's soul together with Shelly's demons, creating a new "coven" individual) seems to support the idea that a human soul is an essential ingredient in an individual human entity. Phix's comments to Tina 2.1 suggest that Tina may be evolving in that same direction. Possibly Tina as she is now is somehow "growing a soul" as the result of her struggle with human ethical issues... and if so, this new "soul" (whatever it is) could be giving her a closer link to the Tina body's nervous system.

[GlytchMeister]

Could the demons be slowly progressing from the robot operator to the true connection? Are they being... Downloaded into the brain left behind by Tina1.0?

Or evolving in a way which establishes such a connection?

The way in which Conscience seems to have been created (a fusion of Tina 1.0's soul together with Shelly's demons, creating a new "coven" individual) seems to support the idea that a human soul is an essential ingredient in an individual human entity. Phix's comments to Tina 2.1 suggest that Tina may be evolving in that same direction. Possibly Tina as she is now is somehow "growing a soul" as the result of her struggle with human ethical issues... and if so, this new "soul" (whatever it is) could be giving her a closer link to the Tina body's nervous system.

...soul...
*scruntches eyebrows together for a bit! mulling over the word*
Maybe a human soul could be likened to an essential file for an OS. Without it, it won't work, and let's just say it's an incredibly complex and difficult to replicate file.
Maybe Tina lost that file, and the demons and Nudge... Launched in safe mode. While in safe mode, they are slowly figuring out how that one file worked, and are... Rebuilding the file based on the hole it left behind? And with each success in figuring out part of that file, the Demons come closer to bringing the whole OS back up and running.
But... If this is the case, then that reconstructed file will always be fundamentally different from the original. For one, it will be a patch, created by entities who don't know jack crap about making souls, they just know how to... Mess with them...
Demons are Soul Hackers!
(...back on track...) And two, this new Soul File will most likely not be dominant over demons because it was made by demons. It's a patch, a "hack", that allows the demons to...what, exactly?
Hmm. What's the point of this hack? Why create this patch soul file to bring the human out of safe mode? Why are Tina's demons progressing toward the "full connection"? There must be a motive. Even if it's not a conscious one, nothing happens without a reason, be it a cause to an effect or a goal to an action. Why are Tina's demons doing this, even without fully realizing or understanding?
With deeper understanding, comes questions of greater number and depth...

[Prester Fred]

"...with no anchovies".

"No anchovies? I'm afraid you've got the wrong man. I spell my name...DANGER!"

*click*

[Fairportfan]

"Damn! They never come up here in the hills!"

[NOTDilbert]

^^Win X 2^^

[illiad]

...soul...
*scruntches eyebrows together for a bit! mulling over the word*
Maybe a human soul could be likened to an essential file for an OS. Without it, it won't work, and let's just say it's an incredibly complex and difficult to replicate file.
Maybe Tina lost that file, and the demons and Nudge... Launched in safe mode. While in safe mode, they are slowly figuring out how that one file worked, and are... Rebuilding the file based on the hole it left behind? And with each success in figuring out part of that file, the Demons come closer to bringing the whole OS back up and running.
But... If this is the case, then that reconstructed file will always be fundamentally different from the original. For one, it will be a patch, created by entities who don't know jack crap about making souls, they just know how to... Mess with them...
Demons are Soul Hackers!
(...back on track...) And two, this new Soul File will most likely not be dominant over demons because it was made by demons. It's a patch, a "hack", that allows the demons to...what, exactly?
Hmm. What's the point of this hack? Why create this patch soul file to bring the human out of safe mode? Why are Tina's demons progressing toward the "full connection"? There must be a motive. Even if it's not a conscious one, nothing happens without a reason, be it a cause to an effect or a goal to an action. Why are Tina's demons doing this, even without fully realizing or understanding?
With deeper understanding, comes questions of greater number and depth...

hmmmm.. I think RL humans are trying to work in the *other* direction... some **true** psychics can vaguely see the 'other' world, but only under certain conditions...

Back to Tina, Phix seemed to subtly say that Tina may be getting closer to a .. (revelation? better world view? ???? ) I would guess getting good feeling for humans, and worrying about their existence, could earn her a soul??