Wapsi Square Forum

Sooo this Nu ( wheres the flippin' Umlaut key? )-Gui is a Chinese version of Druscilla? At this point I would make a comment about getting my yang sucked - but this is an Intelligent crowd, and I would not use such lowbrow humour. *ahem*
Or Maybe they should call ... EDDA! http://www.gocomics.com/9chickweedlane/2008/08/28
http://www.gocomics.com/9chickweedlane/2008/08/30
Next week, Y'all.

When I first saw this I thought, "Oh comon now, this is straight out of left field." But then I re-read the basis for all our thoughts she had made a deal with the demon world and realized she never said she did. She simply mentioned the demon world took notice and that she had made a deal. We, in our naive little way, took it to mean a deal with demons.

Still, apparently Bud has been aware of all this for some time. Why has this never come up before? How can she let SDO continue to make decisions for MIB? Bud is a founding member too, after all. Should she not have stopped SDO before now? Especially after she got out of stasis. Of course, now she realizes SDO has effectively murdered the Lanthian people wholesale. Even tortured them beforehand by keeping them awake in stasis. Although doing so kept more golems from being created, surely she could have accomplished that in a more selective manner. But then, it may never have been about suppressing knowledge and everything about revenge.

All in all, I'm figuring Paul will have his own spin on the Nu Gui legend, and that's what will be most interesting.

Stigmartyr762 wrote: Nü gui (Chinese: 女鬼; pinyin: nǚ guǐ; literally "female ghost") is a vengeful female ghost with long hair in a white dress.

I am inclined to think of Shelly's invisible playmate.

-And isn't Shelly prone to grabbing Monica in a headlock and playfully "drilling" her fist into the top of her noggin? I think I should remember what that's called, but I can't.

And now, their troubles begin...

KnightDelight wrote:When I first saw this I thought, "Oh comon now, this is straight out of left field." But then I re-read the basis for all our thoughts she had made a deal with the demon world and realized she never said she did. She simply mentioned the demon world took notice and that she had made a deal. We, in our naive little way, took it to mean a deal with demons.

I think a Pablo owes you a baked treat. Damn fine catch.

Especially since it seemed to be reinforced here: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/the-deal/ She still didn't say who the deal was with!

KnightDelight wrote:Still, apparently Bud has been aware of all this for some time. Why has this never come up before? How can she let SDO continue to make decisions for MIB? Bud is a founding member too, after all. Should she not have stopped SDO before now?

Aaand, just how does one "stop" the Chessmaster? Jin just stood back and poked it once with a stick. Bud has repeatedly said how much she fears this side of Brandi. The conversation on yesterday's strip turned to whether Superman could beat the GGs, and it was a bit of a draw. Bud knows she's no mental match, but by the proscribed gods, she has given it her best: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/play-the-game/

But she'll be instrumental in saving Brandi, because who knows her better? Could probably give Kath some tips on how to handle being melded with other beings, too.

KnightDelight wrote:Especially after she got out of stasis. Of course, now she realizes SDO has effectively murdered the Lanthian people wholesale. Even tortured them beforehand by keeping them awake in stasis. Although doing so kept more golems from being created, surely she could have accomplished that in a more selective manner. But then, it may never have been about suppressing knowledge and everything about revenge.

The "Etheitians" may have inherited Lanthian tech (and warnings) but we don't know if they are related by blood descent. Still, not unreasonable to think that 'vengeance on all Lanthians to the last generation' is the subroutine Devil Baby* is still making Brandi run.

KnightDelight wrote:All in all, I'm figuring Paul will have his own spin on the Nu Gui legend, and that's what will be most interesting.

We know from peeking in on Charon, that souls exist in Wapsiworld, and that they have a post-life destination. Tina, Inc (Tina's demons+Nudge+Blackwing) is/are an unreliable guide as to what the status of ghosts are, because they are (Amnesiac+Trickster+Fatebound). Jaguar Girl, Tsillah and the Vampire Cops seem to know more about that side of things. So I expect we soon will be looking for Monica and the Charon Crew starring in Saving Brandi from Devil Baby.


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*May not be actually evil, as per the usual foreshadowing.

Well, holy (expletive deleted). Paul has definitely done it again. I wonder, where in hell did he get his amazing ability to pull off these deeply-plotted bootlegger turns so beautifully? Inborn, or trained? Nature or nurture? In any case, it's a wonder to watch him at work here!

Yeah, most of us ended up concluding that Brandi's deal was with the Demon Realm itself... but that's not necessarily the full story. Brandi (or Oduya) does seem to have gotten assistance from the Demons in order to set up the Vimana Grid, but the "Deal" appears to have been more complex than that. In any case, I hereby offer to bring a large helping of alder-smoked red herring to the next get-together in Confusion Corner... it'll go well with the bagels and cream cheese.

As I was driving in to work a few minutes ago, I had one of those "penny dropped and something came into focus" moments. I think Paul just gave us an answer to something people have been debating for quite a while.

I remember a conversation (between Bud and Shelly, I think) which alluded to a "young girl" who had been "caught up in the Chimera". "She's dead, but doesn't realize it." There were suggestions that it might be the "creepy little girl" from Shelly's "boiler room", but we now know that Conscience didn't come into existence until Shelly's vision quest. There were also suggestions that this might be a reference to the little girl that was seen (in someone's vision... Jin's?) being caught and burned in a blast of flame from the Chimera, but we now know that this was very probably Bia and that she survived just fine. It was partly in the hope of rescuing this little girl-spirit, as well as for helping Jin, that led Shelly to be willing to take part in the search for the Artifact that led to her ending up in the Time Forest.

(EDIT: found the reference here. It was apparently Bud who saw the vision of the little girl, and the conversation I remembered was between Shelly and Conscience)

So - who was the little girl, dead but not realizing it, who was caught up in the creation of the Chimera?

I think Pablo has just told us. It was the spirit of the little girl that Brandi accidentally killed while defending herself. Brandi somehow reached out to that little girl's spirit/ghost and "gave it a home" within herself, and it ended up in the Chimera along with Brandi herself. This spirit is now her Senior Directory Oduya personality.

This might possibly mean that the Chimera's behavior was the result of elements from all three of the GG's. Jin's suicide before her will was broken, gave the Chimera freedom to act on its own. Bud seems to have provided the rage. I wonder whether the Nü Gui within Brandi may have directed this rage somehow, against the Priests and the rulers of Lanthis... as somebody suggested, these are the people that the ghost would have reason to be really angry with.

As to the spirit/ghost being a Nü Gui - as I understand it, that's commonly used as the term for the ghost of a woman, but I doubt it's terribly cut and dried in terms of age boundaries. Many cultures have traditions that the ghosts of the wronged, harmed, or murdered do hang around (often for vengeful reasons), can haunt or possess people, and have power of one sort or another. There are plenty of disturbing ghosts of infants in Japanese mythology, for example.

I'm not an expert on voodoo by any means, but I do recall that in his novel "On Stranger Tides", Tim Powers has a voodoo priest say that spirits do (or can) grow over time. "Something that may have been only a noisy ghost to your grandparents, could become a full-fledged loa to your grandchildren". Being worshipped, dealt with, sacrificed to, etc. seemed to be part of what would empower this sort of growth... and once a loa becomes powerful enough, it can possess people, "riding" them as a human rides a horse, speaking with their mouths and moving with their bodies. The "horses" usually do not remember what they did or said while being "ridden" (psychologists would call this a fugue state).

By making her "deal" with the spirit of a child she had killed, Brandi may have inadvertently (or knowingly) left herself open to eventual possession by the equivalent of a loa. This may have been what enabled her to act outside of her golem programming... the Nü Gui may have had free will that was denied to Brandi herself.

We don't yet know the terms of the "deal", but I have a suspicion that these terms may explain something about Chessmaster Senior Director Oduya.

We've seen that Oduya doesn't personally "get her hands dirty". For example, she could almost certainly have "dumped" the Etheitians out of storage at any time, or personally activated the atomic self-destruct system which destroyed the storage vault. She didn't. We don't seem to have any evidence that she has ever taken direct, violent action against anyone. In that respect, she's just as "wouldn't hurt a fly" as Brandi herself.

She is, however, quite willing to further her goals by manipulating situations so that people end up dead, dead, dead. She seems to be very good at it. The General's comments this week suggest that she's so good that even planning to cross her, could end up with you being dead before you did so.

Why doesn't Oduya kill, directly? She's physically capable of doing so quite easily, and with an ability to poit she could do so in ways that would be impossible to prove (or perhaps even detect... poit away a tiny patch of someone's cerebral artery and they have a "stroke"). It can't be entirely about "plausible deniability", since she admits to her ability to set up "death by proxy" and the General was quite willing to warn his peers that she could do so.

So... what if Brandi's "deal" with the Nü Gui came with "terms" that the spirit is compelled to honor, but which weren't quite broad enough? "I killed you, I'm sorry, and I'll give you a home within myself... but you must promise that you will not kill." The spirit might have agreed to this (in a binding fashion), but then found an "out" - it can't kill, but it can arrange for others to do the killing. Enter the Chessmaster, who seeks revenge on the Lanthians (and their descendents the Etheitians?) by creating intricate plots, so that other people (or situations) do the actual killing. As long as she doesn't personally kill, The Deal still holds.

Here we are - Friday morning out here in Reno NV - and Mr. P. has left us a Frig-a- Nating Mess . Yes I know the correct spelling - but this gets me past the censor . All's well in out world here - Matt Cain pitched a great game - and Colin K - our favorite UNR grad is going well in the football warm-ups. Has anyone notice the facial likeness between Matt and Tim of NCIS ?


For those of you who have a greater knowledge about the players than i do - any thoughts of the next few revelations that we might look forward to ?

MerchManDan wrote:

Stigmartyr762 wrote:Nü gui (Chinese: 女鬼; pinyin: nǚ guǐ; literally "female ghost") is a vengeful female ghost with long hair in a white dress.

The problem I have with this is that Bud is European and Brandi is African. Isn’t there an equivalent in either of those 2 cultures?
There probably is. It's a bit curious that Bud would choose the Chinese term, though.

Probably because the Chinese term is closely related linguistically to the Lanthian term? Just my €0.02.

Sidhekin wrote:When and how has Bud "spoke" with demons regarding Brandi's deal?

Bud did spend some time in the demon world, but that was before Brandi told Monica about the deal.

She could have "spoke" with Tina or even Connie, but they are amnesiacs, and would have no idea about the deal.

Bud's initial reaction to Tina suggests she does not have the same kind of rapport with her own demons as do Monica and Jin. (Does Bud even have demons of her own? Not everyone had, at least at first. Timeline question?)

So, what access does Bud have to demons? Did she interview those of the "gateways", Jin and Monica? Does the "gateway" Shelly have a handle on demons other than Connie?

Also: Is the baby still of this galaxy, or did it persist through the time loops, like the Librarians and the Demon world? As if it wasn't already the oldest baby ever ...

Bud rescued Jin's mother from the demon realm at the end of the calendar machine fix arc. I'm sure she talked to a few during that escapade.

Opus the Poet wrote:

Sidhekin wrote:When and how has Bud "spoke" with demons regarding Brandi's deal?

Bud did spend some time in the demon world, but that was before Brandi told Monica about the deal.

Bud rescued Jin's mother from the demon realm at the end of the calendar machine fix arc. I'm sure she talked to a few during that escapade.

Yes, that was what I was referring to. Brandi's talk with Monica about the "deal" happened later, so Bud would not know to ask the demons about the deal on the occasion, and without such prompting, I don't see any reason why they would volunteer their lack of a deal with Brandi.

Yamara wrote:Actually, we know Bud can kick around any demon she likes. http://wapsisquare.com/comic/itskicking/ The Rogue Queen took the one moment she thought it was safe to gloat in front of Bud, when Bud couldn't act. So Bud had plenty of opportunity to do her own investigation.

Yeah, given that she has access to these demons. Under ordinary circumstances, I expect the only demons she has access to, aside from Tina and her own, are those that have come through the "gateways".

Incidentally: I referred to Jin as a "gateway". I should have said "wrangler": She has (had?) an unusual rapport with her demons, but there was no evidence she could function as a gateway.

And Monica is a locked gateway, now ... curiouser and curiouser ... perhaps Bud does have a rapport with her own demons after all?

Boxilar wrote:Presumably, Bud could have talked to Monica's demons. She is a Demon Wrangler, in addition to being the Keeper of the Chimera, Glyph Reader and Jaguar Girl. Monica, Bud and Doubt could have had a little sit down off camera.

Or that, yes: Even if her gateway is locked, Monica can still act as mediator.

There are legal demons on this world, and Phix has mentioned them. It would not be hard for Bud to track them down and ask questions, especially with Phix acting as an intermediary.

Dave wrote:We don't seem to have any evidence that she has ever taken direct, violent action against anyone.

Notice in fact that Brandi is the only one of the Golem Girls to never use her energy weapons, even nonviolently (say, to make popcorn or vaporize a teacup to make a point)... She's pretty good at making faces at people, but she also saves flies for release in springtime.

Dave wrote:So... what if Brandi's "deal" with the Nü Gui came with "terms" that the spirit is compelled to honor, but which weren't quite broad enough? "I killed you, I'm sorry, and I'll give you a home within myself... but you must promise that you will not kill." The spirit might have agreed to this (in a binding fashion), but then found an "out" - it can't kill, but it can arrange for others to do the killing. Enter the Chessmaster, who seeks revenge on the Lanthians (and their descendents the Etheitians?) by creating intricate plots, so that other people (or situations) do the actual killing. As long as she doesn't personally kill, The Deal still holds.

Interestingly, that's the deal the demons make as well. They can say things and influence their host all they want, but what the person does, including kill, is not considered their fault. Likewise, it may be whatever someone else does as a pawn in one of SDO's plans, is not considered her(or NG's) fault. in the case of the demons, the consequence of one of them actually outright killing a human is ridiculously harsh on everyone. So too it may be with Nu Gui (I keep wanting to say Nui Gui). That would be a good reason SDO/Nu Gui doesn't kill directly.

Opus the Poet wrote:

MerchManDan wrote:It's a bit curious that Bud would choose the Chinese term, though.

Probably because the Chinese term is closely related linguistically to the Lanthian term? Just my €0.02.

Yes, that has been brought up, thank you Opus.

"I'm a Nu Gui,
I'm a Nu Gui
The g-nicest para-g-normal of the crew.
I'm a Nu Gui,
How do you do
You really ought to k-now ah w-ho's ah w-ho's
I'm a Nu Gui
Spelt Nu-Gu-I
I'm g-not a Golem, Ghost or Demon Spy
So for your fears to lighten,
I'm g-neither god nor titan,
Oh g-no g-no g-no, I'm just a Nu Gui"

This has been perculating through my brain all day. Maybe now I can let it go.

eee wrote:

zachariah wrote: Why are we assuming the Nu Gui is what Brandi actually made a deal with?

Brandi did not kill the baby, it died during Brandi's efforts to protect the creche when the Lantans came after her! So it was an accident, not of deliberate purpose. If anyone is to blame it is the Lantan priests, not Brandi. I suspect the deal is not between the Nu Gui and Brandi but Brandi swearing vengeance on the Lantans for causing her to kill the baby. That was the split point for Brandi's personality. So the SDO Brandi is the Nu Gui and is carrying out her vengeance. She became the murdered baby and the ghost to avenge it.

But consider who the baby (I assume it was a girl) would be furious with. Brandi, maybe, but mostly the priests who caused her death, and the society that spawned such evil. What did the Chimera - driven by uncontrollable rage - destroy? The priests, and most of the Lanthian civilization. What did SDO go to considerable pains to trap and now try to destroy? The descendants and survivors of that civilization. Children are capable of a blind, all consuming hate and rage most adults can't touch. I have no problem with the idea Brandi allowed the baby to become her other personality.

Maya - and the other Lanthian Immortals, but mostly Maya - could be in considerable danger. She's the one who created Golem-tech, after all, she's the root cause of the baby's death.

I hope Bud brings Jin, Monica, and maybe Tina in on this. This is big. This is REALLY big. The Nü Gui has to be stopped and driven out of Brandi before she can do more damage or use Brandi's GG body to unleash destruction. Bud's going to need all the help she can get...

For a ghost/spirit to want revenge it has to be aware of the betrayal that occurred. A baby could not know what was happening yet. Baby means a very young child, usually 2 or less, more commonly one or less. So how could it know and react. Rather it is more likely that it is Brandi who takes on the vengeful purpose to become the Nu Gui. So to the other Brandi SDO Brandi is now a demon bent on revenge for wrongs done to Brandi and the baby.

Bud's information is flawed. We have to remember that none of them know all the details and events that occurred to the others. Everything they do know is filtered through their impressions of what they have heard from others. Paul is the only one who knows every details and where he is going. So Bud's statement that Brandi made a deal with a Nu Gui may be right in substance, but not in details. All she knows is that Brandi killed a baby, not how or why.

We can't even totally trust information directly about events from the person they happened to. Brandi told Monica about the death of the baby and that she made a deal with the demons. Which is not what happened now is it? So add a grain of salt to all the information we get please. I'll bet that Paul is doing this on purpose to keep us from guessing to closely about events to come.

In some mythologies - perhaps Chinese - the spirits of those who die as babies are fully aware, no matter what stage they were at before death.

zachariah wrote:We can't even totally trust information directly about events from the person they happened to. Brandi told Monica about the death of the baby and that she made a deal with the demons. Which is not what happened now is it?.

Ummm... you are missing a point here that several people have made today.

Brandi did not actually tell Monica that "she made a deal with the demons." That's how pretty much everybody interpreted what Brandi said, but it is not what Brandi actually said... and what Brandi did say, is consistent with what Bud just told Kath and Atsali.

What Brandi actually said was: "They [the priests who captured her] had no what they created that day, who I'd strike a deal with." A few strips later she went on to say "The demon world noticed, I was under Tepoz's care, I made a deal. To help."

Brandi never told Monica her deal was with demons.

Monica, and most of us here interpreted what Brandi said as meaning "The priests had no idea what they created, because they didn't know I would make a deal with demons as a result of what they did. The demon world noticed the situation (my capture and death and Chimerization and the destruction of Lanthis), and later, when I was under Tepoz's care as a golem, I made a deal with them."

A reasonable interpretation, but not the only one.

What Bud is telling Kath and Atsali now, suggests a different interpretation of Brandi's words. "The priests had no idea what they created, because they didn't know I would make a deal with the spirit of the child they had caused me to kill. Later, when I was under Tepoz's care, the demon world noticed the situation that resulted from my having made such a deal."

Brandi's "deal... to help" may have been with the Nü Gui, even before her death, and any interactions with the Demon Realm may have come long after.

I'll grant that Lily does believe that Oduya actually made "a pact with the demon realm" in order to get the Vimana Grid technology, but that doesn't mean it's true... Oduya never confirms it when Lily says it.

If Bud is correct that the demons are terrified of Brandi/Oduya, it could be the other way around... Brandi made her "deal" long ago (with the Nü Gui), and the resulting Brandi/Oduya chessmaster is so threatening to the demons for some reason that they were willing to give her the Vimana technology out of fear... in effect, "paying protection money" to the scary lady.

The interesting question is, if Bud is correct, then just why is Oduya so terrifying to the demons? Could a golem, armed with the knowledge of a Nü Gui, be capable of somehow getting all of the demons kicked off of Earth?

Fairportfan wrote:In some mythologies - perhaps Chinese - the spirits of those who die as babies are fully aware, no matter what stage they were at before death.

Right. Which, I think, ties in with reincarnation. Under that belief, a baby is not a "baby" in reality, but is inhabited with a fully mature soul who has simply had his/her memories repressed in order to truly live out a new life. So, if a baby dies, that person merely reverts back to the soul they were.