Wapsi Square Forum

Destruction of the mine my reveal more than it covers up...

Cool.

I was wrong about that; glad to know the actual sitch. However, you'd need a cap to detonate the booster charge of dynamite to detonate the ANFO...

I wonder how they detonated the ANFO-based "Extra" dynamite.

Dave wrote:

zachariah wrote:It could have been metal cable for hauling the cart up the slope and letting it down slow. I think they are about to come to the end of the ride. Shame they don't have air bags.

That dark line could be the cable. She said duck so that they don't loose their heads as it rips the top of the mine cart. Though the blast will have destroyed the anchor point. Then worry about the cable whipping along after them.

Considering that we see what appear to be burning segments of fuse attacked to each of three boxes of dynamite, quite some distance down the tunnel from the fire, I think what Kat tripped over was fuse or detonation cord of some type.

All of that dynamite wasn't just a storage cache, it appears. It was an Infernal Machine, waiting to be triggered. There may be an Enemy at work here (or perhaps somebody who hasn't developed a sense of proportion in his attempt to revive the tradition of slam-dancing).

If she had tripped over a cable or primacord she probably would have broken a connection and disabled it.

What she hit was the trip wire, which means this was a TRAP

My2Cents wrote: What she hit was the trip wire, which means this was a TRAP

If it was a TRAP it would have gone off sooner. Why give them time to spot it and disable it. Most likely was set up to remove any evidence, or to block the mine. Also since this is a library portal why hasn't it been set off before if it was a trap? I lean more towards something set up to block the tunnel. Maybe what ever they were exploring, or finding, was dangerous and they might be chased back. If being pursued from underground having a way to block the tunnel would be a great idea. Who knows maybe there is another portal down deeper leading to where some of the Anasazi disappeared to. If they fled from danger they would treat anything following them as a dangerous threat. A lot moved south but records are vague about what really happened.

zachariah wrote:

My2Cents wrote: What she hit was the trip wire, which means this was a TRAP

If it was a TRAP it would have gone off sooner. Why give them time to spot it and disable it.

it DID go off sooner... Kath lit the FUSES when she tripped over that "rope" from way back. it's just taken that long for the end product... and thinking about it, looking at the WAY those boxes were stacked, i'll bet the trap isn't so much as for people on THIS this side of them, but for people on the FAR side of the stack... i'll bet they were stacked in such a way that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to remove even ONE box without dropping another box. and the the fuses which were part of the BACK UP trigger, had all that length to burn thru before it hit the dynamite in the various different places all at the SAME TIME!!! it was a backup tripwire trigger placed further DOWNshaft from the entrance AWAY from the entrance that Tina activated, remember why they were walking that way in the first place... i think that the delay was also partially intentional... in order to give that poetic self-realization of that whole "i'm so screwed" feeling to the victim of the original rube-goldberg-anti-claim-jumper-mine-security-system... think about it... if YOU were a Gold-Rush era claim jumper and you saw all that explosive FROM THE OTHER SIDE that is, would YOU want to try to disarm it just to get the other side of the stack? and possibly set it all off from an accidentally dropped box? NOT ME, that's for sure!... but the guy that designed it thought about what would happen if somebody DID successfully do that, too... the trip wire is far enough away that you'd think you were safe... then Blammo!...

well, on the other hand, i guess they DIDN'T need the lamp oil to lubricate the wheel bearings!

Opus the Poet wrote:

Wapsi wrote:Look in the foreground of the first panel.

I see fuses going to lots of boxes with writing on them... and the fuses are burning (that's how I knew they were fuses)

Dun, dun, da-da-dun, dun, da-da-dun....

And the "Coming Attractions" for tomorrows episode will show ??. Why am I thinking this is all being staged.

Even though Atsali seems to be getting a healthy dose of "Adventures Aren't Always Fun or Safe" right now, why do I get the feeling that when/if they make it safely out of the mine, she'll perk up and say something bright and shiny (like "Well that wasn't so bad!") that makes me question her sanity?

Trip wire? Are you all forgetting the dropped oil lamp and leaking oil that caught fire? While Kath tripped, it would have been over the trunk lines or maybe a branch line leading to the explosives. I'm thinking that it has to be time fuse though... Primacord and det cord burn in excess of 20,000 feet per second, which would result in a seemingly instant detonation, leaving no time to think, let alone panic and get into the cart. There are caps that are used with time fuse to initiate detonation of TNT, Dynamite and other explosives.

That looks like an awful lot of explosives there. That would have taken some time to stack all those crates around there. To me it doesn't look like a trap, it looks like they were using that space as a kind of storage depot. It is as if they were planning to expand the mine into a couple different tunnels, something happened and they abandoned it. Maybe the miners were plagued or cursed somehow and they left everything behind. Kat and Atsali come along and accidentally sets them all off at the same time. If there was a trap there I would expect something much older, maybe an Anasazi type of trap. If one exists.

DilyV wrote:Trip wire? Are you all forgetting the dropped oil lamp and leaking oil that caught fire? While Kath tripped, it would have been over the trunk lines or maybe a branch line leading to the explosives. I'm thinking that it has to be time fuse though... Primacord and det cord burn in excess of 20,000 feet per second, which would result in a seemingly instant detonation, leaving no time to think, let alone panic and get into the cart. There are caps that are used with time fuse to initiate detonation of TNT, Dynamite and other explosives.

Pyrotechnic fuses have a wide range of burn rates... an ad I looked at last night showed slow-burning fuses at up to 24 seconds per foot, down to quick-burn at 1/2 second per foot. Even the latter is much slower than det cord. And, the shower-of-sparks we see by each case of dynamite in today's strip does look like a burning fuse.

So, I agree... my money is on "fuse, tripped over, and then ignited by burning oil from dropped lamp."

Unless, of course, the acidic odor Katherine commented about was the smell of a nest of salamanders. If she and Atsali have stirred up a family of fire-lizards by intruding during naptime (and have burned up the salamanders' equivalent of a wine celler full of rare vintages of Chateau d'Boom) things could become even more interesting!

DilyV wrote:Trip wire? Are you all forgetting the dropped oil lamp and leaking oil that caught fire? While Kath tripped, it would have been over the trunk lines or maybe a branch line leading to the explosives. I'm thinking that it has to be time fuse though... Primacord and det cord burn in excess of 20,000 feet per second, which would result in a seemingly instant detonation, leaving no time to think, let alone panic and get into the cart.

Heh. Whenever i think of primacord, i remember the advice of the old-time Hollywood SFX powderman to his new apprentice: "Make sure it's in the right place before you touch it off, 'cos you'll play hell trying to stomp it out."

Dave wrote:

DilyV wrote:Trip wire? Are you all forgetting the dropped oil lamp and leaking oil that caught fire? While Kath tripped, it would have been over the trunk lines or maybe a branch line leading to the explosives. I'm thinking that it has to be time fuse though... Primacord and det cord burn in excess of 20,000 feet per second, which would result in a seemingly instant detonation, leaving no time to think, let alone panic and get into the cart. There are caps that are used with time fuse to initiate detonation of TNT, Dynamite and other explosives.

Pyrotechnic fuses have a wide range of burn rates... an ad I looked at last night showed slow-burning fuses at up to 24 seconds per foot, down to quick-burn at 1/2 second per foot. Even the latter is much slower than det cord. And, the shower-of-sparks we see by each case of dynamite in today's strip does look like a burning fuse.

So, I agree... my money is on "fuse, tripped over, and then ignited by burning oil from dropped lamp."

Unless, of course, the acidic odor Katherine commented about was the smell of a nest of salamanders. If she and Atsali have stirred up a family of fire-lizards by intruding during naptime (and have burned up the salamanders' equivalent of a wine celler full of rare vintages of Chateau d'Boom) things could become even more interesting!

Time fuse (Safety Fuse) and Primacord/det cord are two different animals. Time fuze is usually black powder wrapped in a textile casing. A safety fuse consists of a black powder core in a textile tube, covered with asphaltum or other waterproofing agent, and having an outer wrapper of tough textile or plastic. When ignited, these burn at verying rates, allowing time before the detonator is initiated.

From Wikipedia:

Modern day safety fuses are often used in mining and military operations, to provide a time-delay before ignition, and they more often than not are used to initiate an explosive detonator, thereby starting an explosive chain reaction to detonate a larger more stable main charge. Safety fuses are typically colored black (military) or fluorescent orange (commercial) to distinguish them from detonating cords such as Primacord, which are brightly colored or transparent.

Keep in mind there is also commercially available cannon fuse of similar construction, and is usually seen in Green coloring.

Primacord/Det Cord is a completely different construct. While it may be constructed in a similar manner, the explosives used in the construction burn at such a significantly higher rate.

Again, from Wiki:

Detonating cord (also called detonation cord, detacord, det. cord, detcord, primer cord or sun cord) is a thin, flexible plastic tube filled with PETN (Pentaerythritol tetranitrate). With the PETN exploding at a rate of approximately 4 miles per second, any common length of det cord appears to explode instantaneously. It is a high-speed fuse which explodes, rather than burns, and is suitable for detonating high explosives, usually pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN, Pentrite). The velocity of detonation is sufficient to use it for synchronising multiple charges to detonate almost simultaneously even if the charges are placed at different distances from the point of initiation. It is used to reliably and inexpensively chain together multiple explosive charges. Typical uses include mining, drilling, demolitions, and warfare.

"Cordtex" and "Primacord" are two of many trademarks which have slipped into use as a generic term for this material.

The best example of the use of detcord I have seen is in the movie "We Were Soldiers" with Mel Gibson. He orders one of his officers to "blow me a new LZ." Three or four wraps of Detcord around numerous trees and a cry of "Fire in the hole!!!" later, numerous trees are literally shattered and dropped to make a landing zone big enough to bring helicopters into.

I think people are missing the point.
Although it is a trap, it's rigged as an Automatic Ambush.
In other words someone set this up to destroy whoever would be chasing the rigger or anyone just exploring the mine.
The mine cart is in fact the proper means to exit the trap, but the girls delayed in getting started and would have died had it not been for dropping the lamp.

sheik wrote:I think people are missing the point.
Although it is a trap, it's rigged as an Automatic Ambush.
In other words someone set this up to destroy whoever would be chasing the rigger or anyone just exploring the mine.
The mine cart is in fact the proper means to exit the trap, but the girls delayed in getting started and would have died had it not been for dropping the lamp.

Let's think about that. A automatic ambush that takes time to act. Hummm. Why plan an ambush or trap that allows people time enough to escape? Isn't the purpose to surprise them suddenly before they have time to react? After all what use is a trap with that big a loop hole to let people escape huh? Seems like wasted effort, or a really stupid trap setter.

The fire lit the fuses. The fuses were there so the tunnel could be sealed for some reason. The cart was handy and the only way to escape. The girls took it. The wire/cable/chain was used to pull the cart back up the slop. Occams razor.

The question should be is why does the tunnel need to be sealed? What dangers await????

sheik wrote:I think people are missing the point.
Although it is a trap, it's rigged as an Automatic Ambush.
In other words someone set this up to destroy whoever would be chasing the rigger or anyone just exploring the mine.
The mine cart is in fact the proper means to exit the trap, but the girls delayed in getting started and would have died had it not been for dropping the lamp.

Did I like completely miss something here? There is nothing in what I read that says deliberate trap, booby trap or ambush trap. this appears to be as simple as wandering into a building that has been rigged for demolition through a back door no one is watching. I'm sure Paul will enlighten us, but from what I've read so far, I see no "automatic ambush". From the looks of the images in the comic, Kath tripped over a trunk line but didnt set off anything until she dropped the lamp and it leaked oil, catching on fire and starting the fuse train... Read back and look at the vintage of the boxes in question and the fact that the fuses are burning like a cannon fuse (time fuse). Definitely antique aged boomstoff. A deliberate ambush would have at the very least used snap trap detonators which would have sounded like a mouse trap going off and possibly det cord to set everything off at once (see my post above for the detonation times of det cord and primacord). What it appears we have here is a lot of old explosives that appear to be getting disposed of and at the same time, closing off an old and dangerous mine unfit for human exploration.

RunningBull wrote:That looks like an awful lot of explosives there. That would have taken some time to stack all those crates around there. To me it doesn't look like a trap, it looks like they were using that space as a kind of storage depot. It is as if they were planning to expand the mine into a couple different tunnels, something happened and they abandoned it. Maybe the miners were plagued or cursed somehow and they left everything behind. Kat and Atsali come along and accidentally sets them all off at the same time. If there was a trap there I would expect something much older, maybe an Anasazi type of trap. If one exists.

Why would they place fuses in explosives that were just in storage? This is some kind of trap or scarecrow device.

Opus the Poet wrote:Why would they place fuses in explosives that were just in storage? This is some kind of trap or scarecrow device.

(Emphasis added)
Oh.
MY.
GOD!
I have a new purpose in life!


EDIT: IMG

DilyV wrote: Read back and look at the vintage of the boxes in question and the fact that the fuses are burning like a cannon fuse (time fuse). Definitely antique aged boomstoff. A deliberate ambush would have at the very least used snap trap detonators which would have sounded like a mouse trap going off and possibly det cord to set everything off at once (see my post above for the detonation times of det cord and primacord). What it appears we have here is a lot of old explosives that appear to be getting disposed of and at the same time, closing off an old and dangerous mine unfit for human exploration.

Think Retro.
It works on the automatic ambush principle but uses time fuses instead of det cord.
The trigger is a simple friction match type (no "snap") and the fuses are cut to length to achieve an near simultaneous detonation of all the distributed crates.
It is only when the individual fuses to each crate emerge from hiding (until now probably buried in sand) that the burning fuses are visible, and by then it's way to late to do anything but run.
Considering the age of the explosives, this trap could have been set almost a century ago, long before fancy stuff like PETN and plastic tubing were available.

sheik wrote:

DilyV wrote: Read back and look at the vintage of the boxes in question and the fact that the fuses are burning like a cannon fuse (time fuse). Definitely antique aged boomstoff. A deliberate ambush would have at the very least used snap trap detonators which would have sounded like a mouse trap going off and possibly det cord to set everything off at once (see my post above for the detonation times of det cord and primacord). What it appears we have here is a lot of old explosives that appear to be getting disposed of and at the same time, closing off an old and dangerous mine unfit for human exploration.

Think Retro.
It works on the automatic ambush principle but uses time fuses instead of det cord.
The trigger is a simple friction match type (no "snap") and the fuses are cut to length to achieve an near simultaneous detonation of all the distributed crates.
It is only when the individual fuses to each crate emerge from hiding (until now probably buried in sand) that the burning fuses are visible, and by then it's way to late to do anything but run.
Considering the age of the explosives, this trap could have been set almost a century ago, long before fancy stuff like PETN and plastic tubing were available.

Okay, lets think Retro...

Time fuse that is exposed for any length of time absorbs moisture, making it unable to burn. Most mines or caves, regardless of the outside climate, tend to be extremely moist places. Same would go for friction matches. The paper or wood and the sulfur head would all absorb moisture that would render them useless after any reasonable amount of time. Now, multiply that by oh... say... even five years. Anything exposed would absorb enough moisture to render it useless and the dynamite would have sweated out a lot of nitro which would have crystalized and made the whole shebang (no pun intended, honest) completely unstable. The first rule of using modern time fuse and det/primacord is to cut off and discard the first six inches of the running end of the cord. This lessens the chance that moisture has wicked into the fuse through the exposed end. Back in the day? Modern firecracker fuse would probably be more reliable...