Wapsi Square Forum

well, here is a good map!:)
1500BC to almost present..

http://www.timemaps.com/history/europe-200bc

Sgt. Howard wrote:English is half Saxon, half Norman French and heavily salted with everything it touches- As a language, it will follow other languages down dark alleys and mug them for vocabulary.

According to linguists and English language historians such as Charlton Laird and Albert Baugh, the Normans who settled England had very minimal direct influence on the development of Middle English. There were just too few of them, and the use of Anglo-Norman was too limited away from everyday affairs. So when Anglo-Norman faded away in a few generations and early Middle English became the standard language, it was still mainly a Germanic language with a very tiny smattering of Celtic and a bit more of Norman French.

The evidence that they give for this is twofold. First is a statistical study of the use of Norman French words in everyday correspondence outside of official government affairs; there isn't much mixture of French into early Middle English until several centuries after the Norman Conquest. Then there's the matter that most of the French words that do appear are in the Ile de France dialect that became the standardised French in the 14th Century , not the very distinct Norman French.

So the Normans may not have contributed much to the English language themselves. What they did do was to provide a cultural tie between England and the rest of continental Europe (especially France), which led to an increase in correspondence and a later influx of French vocabulary as French became the “in” language of Europe.

Catawampus wrote:So the Normans may not have contributed much to the English language themselves. What they did do was to provide a cultural tie between England and the rest of continental Europe (especially France), which led to an increase in correspondence and a later influx of French vocabulary as French became the “in” language of Europe.

Actually, they had one important and profound effect on the English language - albeit somewhat indirectly. They (temporarily) eliminated The King's English.

With no "proper" "court" English, no legal English, the language could evolve more freely. In a period that lasted only a couple centuries (if that long) the language shed a LOT of baggage, including the final remnants of cases and declensions (the sole exception being the possessive case). For which, be most thankful.

Warrl wrote:

Catawampus wrote:So the Normans may not have contributed much to the English language themselves. What they did do was to provide a cultural tie between England and the rest of continental Europe (especially France), which led to an increase in correspondence and a later influx of French vocabulary as French became the “in” language of Europe.

Actually, they had one important and profound effect on the English language - albeit somewhat indirectly. They (temporarily) eliminated The King's English.

With no "proper" "court" English, no legal English, the language could evolve more freely. In a period that lasted only a couple centuries (if that long) the language shed a LOT of baggage, including the final remnants of cases and declensions (the sole exception being the possessive case). For which, be most thankful.

But left us with a quagmire of spelling contradictions and a grammar and syntax that requires meds to understand if it is not you primary language.

Sgt. Howard wrote:But left us with a quagmire of spelling contradictions and a grammar and syntax that requires meds to understand if it is not you primary language.

Wait, there are people who truly understand English?!?

H. Beam Piper said "English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."

Upthread, the Sarge gives us a somewhat mangled version of a comment originally made on RASFF by James Nicoll:

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

{a typo in the original post is corrected here}

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As always, when i mention James Nicoll, i feel it incumbent on me to reference Cally Soukop's list of "Nicoll Events".

This is a man who can say, of a more-or-less routine moment in his life, "...the inside of a fireball is a beautiful thing..."

And that's a mild one.

AnotherFairportfan wrote:As always, when i mention James Nicoll, i feel it incumbent on me to reference Cally Soukop's list of "Nicoll Events".

This is a man who can say, of a more-or-less routine moment in his life, "...the inside of a fireball is a beautiful thing..."

And that's a mild one.

Hmm, I wonder if I might be related to Mr. Nicoll...