If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest of us

All off topic conversation held here. Have fun and play nice. =)

Moderators: Bookworm, starkruzr, MrFireDragon, PrettyPrincess, Wapsi

Post Reply
User avatar
Fairportfan
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:14 am
Location: Atlanta (well, Gainesville)
Contact:

If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest of us

Post by Fairportfan »

You almost hope that this is satire ... but if it is, it's so badly written that, well, ...'

'Game of Thones,'' ''Harry Potter,'' ''Chronicles of Narnia'': Where Are All The American Fantasy Characters?
Devin Miller/TheWrap.com wrote:With the well-hyped beginning of the third season of HBO's "Game of Thrones" series, America will once again return to Westeros, the universe created by American fantasy writer George R.R. Martin. Americans have embraced this world of kings and dragons in much the same way J.R.R. Tolkien's Fantasy series "The Lord of the Rings" has been loved since being released in the U.S. in the 1960s.

Fantasy series like Tolkien's have become ingrained in American culture. The characters of Fantasy books are well known, even to those who never read the genre. The heroes and villains, their stories and the lessons learned from them, are common knowledge. And the reason for this is that in the modern world, particularly in the West and the United States, Fantasy has become our mythology.

Mythology: a collection of fables, legends, and myths that tell stories about the culture, about its values, and how the people living in that culture are supposed to act, and what type of person they should strive to be.

Yet if Fantasy books make up much of our mythology, and I think strongly that that is true, then I also think that we, in America, have a problem. The problem is that most of our Fantasy isn't written by Americans about American culture and values.

The most famous books of Fantasy are arguably "The Lord of the Rings," "The Chronicles of Narnia" and "Harry Potter." And they were all written by British authors, about—essentially—British characters, and discussing British values.

My father gave me the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy when I was in fifth grade, and I burned through them in two weeks. Even before those books I started reading about three young wizards named Harry, Ron and Hermione, and was captivated by that world as well. Even my mother, not a Fantasy reader at all, has strong memories of reading and loving "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe," perhaps the most famous of the books in C.S. Lewis' "The Chronicles of Narnia."

English values are similar to ours, but they're still not American. And if mythology is supposed to teach a culture how to act and behave, what type of person you should strive to be, then we have a serious problem, because all our mythology is teaching us how to be good Brits, not good Americans.

If we're going to teach American culture and beliefs to generation after generation, then we need powerful stories and characters that will remain with us for decades. We need more American Fantasy that speaks to our culture and our values.

Yet we don't have that American Fantasy. Even American Fantasy writers write like they're British. George R.R. Martin is hailed as the American version of Tolkien, yet his series takes place in a mythical world styled after medieval Europe, and has characters that usually seem pretty British to me. When HBO went and turned his popular books into an even more popular TV show, they filmed it mostly in Wales and Ireland, and used a cast of mostly British actors who all speak and look and talk like Brits.

American Fantasy authors don't write about America. We don't have anyone writing stories set in the lush Mississippi delta, or the Rocky Mountains, or the forests on the East coast, or among the redwoods on the West coast. There aren't Fantasy books discussing and questioning American social issues or our notions of heroism, like our obsession with vigilantly justice so prevalent in our westerns and action films. We don't have Fantasy characters that are symbols of what to strive for as Americans.

All hope is not lost, though. We do seem to be making some progress. As bad as Stephanie Meyers' "Twilight" books are, they still mostly take place in Washington State, and in small town America. As poorly as the characters and scenes are written - I truly hope we won't be talking about Bella Swan or Edward Cullen in a decade - the books are about Americans, in America.

Another popular series is "The Hunger Games" by Suzanne Collins. It's more Science Fiction than Fantasy, but the two genres are close enough. Collins' books take place in a dystopian future America, so the characters are American, or at least a fictional version of future Americans. The main character, Katniss Everdeen, does seem like the type of character that can teach readers how they should act and strive to be as Americans, not as Brits.

But I don't think we have any truly American Fantasy yet, or at least not any that could become part of our mythology. But perhaps it's only a matter of time until we get some American mythology from our Fantasy books.

I really hope this comes true, because I'm rather tired of listening to British accents and reading about British characters. That won't stop me from watching the third season of "Game of Thrones," or from rereading "Harry Potter" for the umpteenth time. But hopefully the next generation will have an American series to reread over and over again with American characters to fall in love with. And perhaps the next HBO Fantasy series won't have actors that all talk like they just stepped out of the mists of an English moor. Why can't people with New York or Southern or Californian accents ride dragons and cast spells?
===============================

After i posted that first, over at the Comfy Couch, i went back to Yahoo:
Lessee: There's Patricia Wrede's "Thirteenth Child" novels, set in an alternate Nineteenth Century were magic and technology co-exist and Ben Franklin was a powerful wizard.

There's Patricia Briggs' "Mercy Thompson" books, featuring a half-American Indian coyote shapeshifter and VW mechanic, in a world where very much like ours, except with werewolves, vampires and assorted fae.

Carry Vaughan's "Kitty Norville" series, about a late-night radio talk host who just happens to be a werewolf.

Maryjanice Davidson's often-hilarious "Betsy, Queen of the Vampires" books.

C.E.Murphy's "Walker Papers" series - about a twentieth century cop who reluctantly accepts that the Indian side of her heritage has given her special powers - and responsibilities.

Jim Butcher's "Harry Dresden" books.

Tanya Huff, with several series that are Canadian, not USAian in setting ... but that's "American".

Kim Harrison's "Inderlander" series.

Cassandra Caine's "Mortal Instruments" books - the first of which will be released soon as a film.

=======================

And a LOT more - those are just the ones ten or fifteen minutes of thought called to mind. ALL of them better than the "Twilight" books.

And there are others, worse than the "Twilight" books, if you can imagine such - Jennifer Estep's "Elemental Assassin" books come to mind.
...and between copying it there ad pasting it here, two or three more came to mind.
Not even duct tape can fix stupid. But it can muffle the noise.
=====================
Peace through superior firepower - ain't nothin' more peaceful than a dead troublemaker.
=====================
mike weber
User avatar
jwhouk
Posts: 6053
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:58 am
Location: The Valley of the Sun, Arizona
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by jwhouk »

And yet, there's the fact that your current avatar is of GKC's Antimony - which is pretty much assumed to be based out of the UK.
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
User avatar
Dave
Posts: 7586
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Dave »

Much of Emma Bull's work fits.
  • "War For The Oaks" is set in Minneapolis (but, who would ever believe that there's anything fantastic or paranormal happening in Minneapolis ;) ) and it very nearly defines modern urban fantasy all by itself. One of the two best first fantasy novels I've ever read (with Diane Duane's "The Door Into Fire" being the other).
  • "Finder" is set in Bordertown, which is as much in America as it anywhere else. Those characters who don't speak with an Elvish manner speak in colloquial American.
  • "Territory" is set in Tombstone, Arizona... and you can't get much closer to the pure-quill heart of the American mythos than Tombstone!
All of these are truly excellent reads!
User avatar
Atomic
Posts: 2948
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:39 am
Location: Central PA
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Atomic »

American Fantasy? Hmmm -- just off the top of my head:

The Old West - stereotypical heroism, some mysticism (those sneaky Indians, some good, some bad), inspiration to bravery and self-reliance.

Tom Sawyer/Life on the Mississippi - A mythic land of some seriously disturbed people, and how to survive them.

The Tom Swift series - Electric Motorboats! Giant Cannons! Airships! Steampunk before it was steampunk! The future is now...

Tom Hardy /Nancy Drew - Mystery around every corner!

Horatio Alger - You CAN succeed!

Wizard of Oz series - A good heart and good intentions only work if you put some effort into it!

Ok - the last one was lots of fantasy/mysticism, but still the rest go in that direction somewhat, if only anti- or counterpoint to mystical assumptions. The power of dreams becoming reality!
Don't let other peoples limitations become your constraints!

My Deviant Art scribbles
The Atomic Guide to Basic GIMP Stuff
User avatar
Fairportfan
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:14 am
Location: Atlanta (well, Gainesville)
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Fairportfan »

jwhouk wrote:And yet, there's the fact that your current avatar is of GKC's Antimony - which is pretty much assumed to be based out of the UK.
I'm not the one pissing and moaning about it.

"Antimony", the metal...
Not even duct tape can fix stupid. But it can muffle the noise.
=====================
Peace through superior firepower - ain't nothin' more peaceful than a dead troublemaker.
=====================
mike weber
ShneekeyTheLost
Posts: 609
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:45 pm

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by ShneekeyTheLost »

Stupid insular isolationistic... sorry, I've quite run out of words to use to describe that bit of... farcical nonsense. And this from someone who makes a living by always having something to say in any given situation.

Samuel Clemens would be rolling in his grave at the mere thought of his premise, much less how poorly it is presented.

Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mercedes Lackey's SERRAted Edge series yet as being decidedly set in America (as well as Underhill... but that's part of what they call 'fantasy'). Last I checked she was a rather popular author, even if her fanbase does tend to the rabid side from time to time.

Also, how many Browncoats in here? Classic 'wild west in space' setting with a bit of oriental flash and dash to spice it up. Heck, the whole concept of the browncoats resonates very strongly with the American Civil War.

However, the basic argument about Mythology in general is... completely flawed and bogus to begin with. When you look into Mythology, what do you see? Other religions which Christianity conquered by the sword. So worshiping them would be blasphemous and heretical (nevermind that you can't actually do both at the same time), so they created the category Mythology just so the monks could study it without getting in deep trouble.

The United States of America wasn't founded until well after that happened. So of course they don't have much in the way of mythology. Go back further, however, and you've got dozens of different Native American Tribes and their mythology which is rich and lush. Of course, I don't think the author of that particular piece of tripe would be willing to acknowledge such, despite the fact that they were on the continent for thousands of years before Eric the Red first discovered the continent, much less nearly a thousand years after HIM when Columbus stumbled across it by sheerest accident.

The modern culture doesn't go in much for teaching stories, because the public education system is supposed to do that job for them. Mythology is, to the vast majority, 'that crap we have to read in class'. Not because we're supposed to learn any moral lessons from it, but to demonstrate our literacy and ability to regurgitate a passage upon command.

Then again, I also suspect he would be rather irate if I pointed out that the Bible would fall under that same definition of 'Mythology' that he used. Which makes me even more tempted to look up the source and do so.
User avatar
DinkyInky
Posts: 2382
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:38 am
Location: Where there's more than Corn.
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by DinkyInky »

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:Stupid insular isolationistic... sorry, I've quite run out of words to use to describe that bit of... farcical nonsense. And this from someone who makes a living by always having something to say in any given situation.

Samuel Clemens would be rolling in his grave at the mere thought of his premise, much less how poorly it is presented.

Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mercedes Lackey's SERRAted Edge series yet as being decidedly set in America (as well as Underhill... but that's part of what they call 'fantasy'). Last I checked she was a rather popular author, even if her fanbase does tend to the rabid side from time to time.
I wasn't awake yet...doing that sleep thing to make sure I wake up to get my wee one up for school thing... My friends(may as well say sister) dad has Tanim's car, an OMG honest to goodness balls to the wall unmodded 1969 Mach 1. People thought I was mad for allowing my then two year old to go with her son for a joyride in it...without us. I say it's a memory he'll have forever. Funniest thing were the two car seats in the back. Back then seatbelts were an option, and the original owner optioned for them, so yay for present day legal?
ShneekeyTheLost wrote:Also, how many Browncoats in here? Classic 'wild west in space' setting with a bit of oriental flash and dash to spice it up. Heck, the whole concept of the browncoats resonates very strongly with the American Civil War.

However, the basic argument about Mythology in general is... completely flawed and bogus to begin with. When you look into Mythology, what do you see? Other religions which Christianity conquered by the sword. So worshiping them would be blasphemous and heretical (nevermind that you can't actually do both at the same time), so they created the category Mythology just so the monks could study it without getting in deep trouble.

The United States of America wasn't founded until well after that happened. So of course they don't have much in the way of mythology. Go back further, however, and you've got dozens of different Native American Tribes and their mythology which is rich and lush. Of course, I don't think the author of that particular piece of tripe would be willing to acknowledge such, despite the fact that they were on the continent for thousands of years before Eric the Red first discovered the continent, much less nearly a thousand years after HIM when Columbus stumbled across it by sheerest accident.

The modern culture doesn't go in much for teaching stories, because the public education system is supposed to do that job for them. Mythology is, to the vast majority, 'that crap we have to read in class'. Not because we're supposed to learn any moral lessons from it, but to demonstrate our literacy and ability to regurgitate a passage upon command.

Then again, I also suspect he would be rather irate if I pointed out that the Bible would fall under that same definition of 'Mythology' that he used. Which makes me even more tempted to look up the source and do so.
Unfortunately, then you'd get rabid fans countering your logic and thought with doe-eyed rhetoric of misused quotes from questionable sources.
Most kids these days weren't raised with the values a lot of us on these boards were. We were taught to question things, and if we didn't get the answers, to research the answer until we did find it. Families were closer, and spent more time together. Fast food was a treat, not a staple. TV was entertainment, not a babysitter. Both parents worked for the most part out of choice rather than necessity. Some of us didn't need to freaking lock the doors and windows. Kids went outside to play, and parents didn't need a smartphone with a GPS to know where their kids are...the kids checked in out of respect. Oh, and kids had respect, and treated everyone with such.

To the original meat of the post. Even though it deals with Greek Mythology, Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson books are in American settings for the parts not relating to the gods. Like them better than Harry Potter, actually.

I love most of the classics part of the banned book list, but the PC police would rather kids read Twi-lousy and Hunger Games, than Life on the Mississippi. Is it any wonder we're going in a handbasket? Speaking of, WTF is with the AR lists? Narnia and Twains tales are at a sixth grade comp? The questions are HS level too, as though no kid should dare read them.

If I keep this up, my son will never get to school on time, so....
Yanno how some people have Angels/Devils for a conscience? I have a Dark Elf ShadowKnight and a Half Elf Ranger for mine. The really bad part is when they agree on something.

Aphyon chu kissa whol l'jaed.
--Safyr Drathmir
User avatar
Lee M
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:10 pm
Location: A small island located between Maine and Amsterdam

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Lee M »

Anyone mention Elfquest yet? A comic about societies that are almost all based on Native American cultures of various eras.
The paper maker is the basest of all creatures. He deprives the beggar of his rags to make white sheets for editors to lie on.
--early 20th century school essay, from Fresh Howlers, ed. H. Cecil Hunt (UK, 1930)
User avatar
Fairportfan
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:14 am
Location: Atlanta (well, Gainesville)
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Fairportfan »

I try to avoid, as much as possible, mentioning Elfquest, Wendy Pini or (particularly) Richard Pini.
Not even duct tape can fix stupid. But it can muffle the noise.
=====================
Peace through superior firepower - ain't nothin' more peaceful than a dead troublemaker.
=====================
mike weber
User avatar
Boxilar
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Boxilar »

Fairportfan wrote:I try to avoid, as much as possible, mentioning Elfquest, Wendy Pini or (particularly) Richard Pini.
Any particular reason? I remember reading some of the first trade paperbacks in High School. They were a decent read and fed my hunger for fantasy Back in the 80's, along with D&D.

God, I remember when D&D players were viewed as the scourge of society, trying to corrupt the impessionable youth, back before Tipper Gore demanded record label ratings and Harry Potter became the target of the preacher's ire. The days of the Keep on the Borderlands and being holed up at friends house on Saturday when all the other kids were out playing in the sunshine. Of starting a "Campaign" that we all knew was only going to go maybe into the next session, if we were lucky, and the current session devolving when someone wanted to crank up the Atari 2600 for "just a minute" that we all knew was going to end that weeks dungeon crawl. Back when fantasy was Lord of the Rings, and that Hobbit movie was pretty good and we could all sing "where there's a whip there is a way" even tough we agreed that movie stank. If you wanted fantasy, you picked up a book with a bare chested Barbarian painted by Boris Vallego or Frank Frazetta on the cover. And we all bought Savage Sword of Conan. Not the color comic, but the big magazine sized one that was black and white and was as bloody as Wapsi Square at its worst nearly every issue. And comic artists knew what anatomy was, even if the men all looked like Schwarzenneger and the women were *ahem* impossibly endowed. Back when Superman looked more like an Olympic powerlifter and less like a really buff male model.

*Inhales, then realizes he's been ranting*

Anyhoo, I assume you have a personal reason not to mention them.
User avatar
Fairportfan
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:14 am
Location: Atlanta (well, Gainesville)
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Fairportfan »

Personal, at-second-hand, stuff.
Not even duct tape can fix stupid. But it can muffle the noise.
=====================
Peace through superior firepower - ain't nothin' more peaceful than a dead troublemaker.
=====================
mike weber
User avatar
Boxilar
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Boxilar »

Fairportfan wrote:Personal, at-second-hand, stuff.
Ah. Well, it happens. If it means anything, I haven't read anything by them since about '89, with the exception of trying to pick up a comic in the mid '90s. I realized that there was way to much backstory to catch up on, there were no trades available, and my comic book store didn't have back issues. So gave up on it. I have no knowledge of them beyond that.
User avatar
Boxilar
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Boxilar »

Thinking about it, America does have founding Mythic Characters. Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan with Babe the Blue Ox, John Henery, Casey Jones and Johnny Appleseed come to mind. I wonder if they would be demigods in a modern mythology, or if they'll turn up in Wapsi Square.
User avatar
Dave
Posts: 7586
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Dave »

Boxilar wrote:Thinking about it, America does have founding Mythic Characters. Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan with Babe the Blue Ox, John Henery, Casey Jones and Johnny Appleseed come to mind. I wonder if they would be demigods in a modern mythology, or if they'll turn up in Wapsi Square.
cf "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman. An excellent novel in which at least one of those characters does show up... and bemoans the "junk food" status of many of the other popular-mythos characters on the grounds that they have their origins in commercial advertising campaigns of a century ago.
User avatar
Atomic
Posts: 2948
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:39 am
Location: Central PA
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Atomic »

Boxilar wrote:Thinking about it, America does have founding Mythic Characters. Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan with Babe the Blue Ox, John Henry, Casey Jones and Johnny Appleseed come to mind.
Thank you. That's the point I was trying to get at.
Don't let other peoples limitations become your constraints!

My Deviant Art scribbles
The Atomic Guide to Basic GIMP Stuff
User avatar
Jabberwonky
Posts: 2963
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:11 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Jabberwonky »

Dave wrote:
Boxilar wrote:Thinking about it, America does have founding Mythic Characters. Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan with Babe the Blue Ox, John Henery, Casey Jones and Johnny Appleseed come to mind. I wonder if they would be demigods in a modern mythology, or if they'll turn up in Wapsi Square.
cf "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman. An excellent novel in which at least one of those characters does show up... and bemoans the "junk food" status of many of the other popular-mythos characters on the grounds that they have their origins in commercial advertising campaigns of a century ago.
"American Gods" was a great read. I liked the take on the gods 'today'. A friend of mine recommended it to me because the thought the main character was a lot like me. I have no comment on that.
"The price of perfection is prohibitive." - Anonymous
User avatar
jwhouk
Posts: 6053
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:58 am
Location: The Valley of the Sun, Arizona
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by jwhouk »

I suspect Mr. Bunyan and his blue ox won't be showing up in WS anytime soon.

Mr. Bunyan is too busy running his own pancake franchise in north central Wisconsin.
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
User avatar
NOTDilbert
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:39 am
Location: Western Arkansas, USA

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by NOTDilbert »

jwhouk wrote:I suspect Mr. Bunyan and his blue ox won't be showing up in WS anytime soon.

Mr. Bunyan is too busy running his own pancake franchise in north central Wisconsin.
As in the Phineas & Ferb Cartoon: "Paul Bunyan's! Where the Food is Good (But Not Too Good, Eh?)" Don't remember which one(s) they did that in - Couldn't tell if it was a dig or shout-out to the chain....
"Imagination is more important than Knowledge" - Albert Einstein
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it DOES rhyme" - Mark Twain
"Always. Expect. Ninjas." - Syndey Scoville
User avatar
Boxilar
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Boxilar »

Paul Bunyan, Paul Bunyan
Ain't nobody who can,
Hold a candle, or an axe handle,
To Paul the Lumber Man!
User avatar
Bookworm
Posts: 615
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:59 pm
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: If this guy gets paid, there's still hope for the rest o

Post by Bookworm »

I've been busy, and still haven't much time, but I'll throw in my two bits.

European mythology IS american mythology. My family is Canadian... and Irish, Scots, Belgian, English, and Micmac.

Tolkien apparently used some _American_ background in creating The Hobbit..

http://www.thenewerworld.com/2012/12/17 ... %E2%80%99/

(Hopefully the link works. Otherwise, just search 'kentucky' and 'tolkien' )

The reason that much of modern fantasy is 'european' is that we in the US have never had a feudal period, and much/most of fantasy involves feudal flavours! Idiot. Someone who mistakes the framework for the content.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Post Reply