A bit of feedback...

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duskglow
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A bit of feedback...

Post by duskglow »

Nah, don't worry, I'm not going to unload with both barrels. I realize I'm not paying anything for this, etc., etc. That said, I have been a loyal reader for years, so I think that entitles me to give just a bit of feedback.

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I've been finding this comic getting more and more difficult to follow as the years go by. I'm having a hard time telling the characters apart, new plot points seem to be introduced in a disjointed fashion, and I'm just utterly confused now. Who's doing what to whom and why? I'm getting so confused ever time I see a new strip I feel like I'm tuning into a show halfway in...

Just my opinion.
Halfbiscuit
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Halfbiscuit »

I hear ya, Duskglow. In fact, I registered today for the sole purpose of being able to post a reply and say how completely I agree with you.

I'll unload with both barrels.

I've been a loyal Wapsi Square reader since the very beginning. I got hooked on the comic right away. A plucky young woman and her friends, developing relationships, dealing with life's mishaps, and wrestling with all-to-real personal demons. All of this presented in a way that appeared to show a real respect and understanding of the issues that a lot of women face in contemporary society --and the supernatural subplots never seemed to get in the way of the character-driven storyline. For humorous relief there was Dietzel and Tepoz (remember them?) Sure, there was the occasional fanservice (somewhat understandable, given Monica's impressive proportions) but even that had a tongue-in-cheek, self-aware quality to it.

My how things have changed...

Nowadays, characters are suddenly added, dropped, and oh-so-clumsily retconned --all to further an utterly incomprehensible story arc that seemingly never resolves. Instead of interesting, nuanced characters, the comic has become the equivalent of a poorly-scripted action movie, with gunfights, crappy mythology, time travel, and nuclear explosions. What the heck, let's throw in some vampires! Mummies! Black helicopters! Whatever...

Not only has the storytelling devolved, but so have the characters. Their appearances have morphed to the point that I sometimes have difficulty telling who's who. Plus, it seems like pretty much everybody is impressively busty now --even waiflike Katherine-- and Pablo hocks boobalicious Cheesecake prints to the fanboys on the weekend. (I realize that an artist has to support himself, and don't get me wrong, I like boobies as much as the next guy, maybe more, but let's not pretend that this is a woman-empowering webcomic any longer.)

I know, I know, if I'm not enjoying it I probably shouldn't tune in every morning. I'm not sure why I still do. I've got a couple of like-minded friends who, like me, are still sticking with the comic. When we get together we'll all sort of sigh whenever someone mentions Wapsi Square, and wistfully reminisce about long-missing characters and amusing moments in the comic's backstory.

Ah well. It was a great comic there for awhile. I suppose it's time to let it go.
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jwhouk
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by jwhouk »

Cerebus Syndrome could very well, at some point in the future, be renamed "Wapsi Syndrome".

It is very hard to encourage someone to read a webcomic about a Mexican-Irish-American woman in Minneapolis who has strange adventures with the supernatural - when we haven't seen said character in nearly five months.

EDIT: Cerebus Syndrome, my bad.

EDIT 2 - The exact quote on "Cerebus Syndrome: Webcomics" on TV Tropes (which I won't link to, so we don't lose people):
Wapsi Square undergoes a transition from a light-hearted slice-of-life comedy, to a dark, supernatural drama where the main character has to save the world from a quasi-apocalypse; dropping nearly all of it's supporting cast in the process (although a few do pop in for cameos from time to time), and leaving a large number of unresolved subplots. Aspects of this were hinted at early in the series; but were mostly off-hand comments prior to the appearance of the "Golem Girls"; whose addition to the cast denote the transition point (although it takes a bit longer for the change to really manifest).
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duskglow
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by duskglow »

The thing is, though, I stick around because I liked the comic. I don't want to be one of those guys who just comes in and craps all over a cartoonist, when I don't pay anything for the comic and the only real recourse I have, and should have, is to vote with my feet. But damn it, when you write a comic, you write the comic so that people start to care about and get emotionally invested in the characters, and when that happens, it becomes a bit personal when it becomes less than it was.

I would be happy with just an *explanation*. What's going on? Where did those two women come from? What's the backstory here, what does Pablo know about what happened in between the frames that we don't? What is the *story* here?

If that can be fixed, I'll probably be reasonably happy. At least I won't be confused anymore and can enjoy the story. But as of right now, I'm missing some very important stuff here and I don't even know what it is, and it's very frustrating.
Halfbiscuit
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Halfbiscuit »

Good point, jwhouk.

I'd never heard of Cerebus Syndrome before, but I certainly see parallels between what happened with Cerebus and what's happened to Wapsi. Cerebus got WAY out there by the end of its run --albeit in a (dare I say) more cerebral and even more numbingly obscure direction.

And you're right, duskglow. I suppose I did sort of "crap on the cartoonist" in my rant above. I'm just frustrated. I should have chosen my wording a bit more judiciously, and just accept that the comic isn't to my taste any more. To his credit, Pablo did provide several years of very enjoyable characters and situations, and I'm grateful for that.
duskglow
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by duskglow »

I wasn't saying that in reference to you, I've just seen it on other forums where someone comes in with what they call "constructive criticism" and somehow manage to completely cut down the cartoonist. I don't intend to do that. I was just given this forum and I intend on using it. :) It's a fine line between appreciating what the cartoonist does and saying "all that said, here's where you can improve".
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Atomic
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Atomic »

I see it as maturation and growth. Granted, it hasn't reached the point of having to follow all 852 1/2 characters tromping around "War and Peace" over a 60 year period of conflict and politics over who gets to control the crucial Spice trade between planets....

Wait... That's Dune. I think.

Never mind that -- a 5-a-week comic can't easily cover everything for everybody and tie it up with a nice bow (OK - they eloped and sent a nice card) to everybody's satisfaction. The facts are that PW has spent years setting up potential plot lines as integral to the main characters development, and now we find ourselves In Media Res with a new adventure (!) centered on a former support character.

Surprise!

So pass the popcorn already. The show's on!
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duskglow
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by duskglow »

Be that as it may, I'm still utterly confused and have very little idea what's going in, in spite of reading it daily for a long time.
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Dave
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Dave »

Well, guys, I'm not about to say "You're wrong to feel the way you do." No sense or justice in that! I'll just try to offer my own perspective on it.

You're right - Wapsi Square has changed over the years. It feels to me as if it left the "daily web-comic" genre quite some time back (before I started reading, back about two years ago) and is now squarely in the "graphic novel" category (albeit one which happens to publish most every weekday). Like other graphic and written novels, it has a longer "attention horizon" - things happen that don't make sense on a single page, but only in a much longer context. That's definitely not to everyone's taste... the "Hunh?" and "WTF" conditions aren't always very comfortable for the reader :) any more than they are for the characters.

Paul seems to be comfortable writing story-threads which take a year or three (or more) to really play themselves out into our view. Wapsi Square resembles a "story arc" TV show such as Babylon 5 much more than an episodic show like Star Trek. I strongly suspect that we will get explanations about what the hell is going on - but probably only at the times and in the ways it's right for the characters themselves to learn these things.

Paul seems to have decided to draw Wapsi Square on a much larger story-canvas these days than when he was just starting, and that makes things complex and (I freely admit it) often hard to understand at first. I wrote up some thoughts about this a couple of days ago in response to another long-time reader's comments (similar to your own) - rather than bore you with repetition I'll just point you there.

As I said, the way Paul is going is certainly not going to be to everyone's taste, and I don't think that fact reflects badly on anyone at all. For me... well, I find it all quite fascinating - I'm enjoying the ride into the unknown, the moments of bafflement, the surprises, the actual or apparent changes in the characters (including those I don't yet understand), their motivations and their conflicts and struggles, the speculations here in the Forum, the occasional "Ah hah!" moments when something clicks... wonderful stuff. I guess I'm willing to trust that it'll mostly make sense one day... and I can accept not understanding it all right now.

There are plenty of comics (web and paper) out there which haven't fundamentally changed at all in decades... they're following the classic schtick of "saying the same thing over and over in a different way." Same characters, same themes... no growth and no change. They're dependable and (usually) highly digestible and often great fun. Personally, I'm glad for something a lot more challenging than that... and Wapsi Square fits the bill.

I hope you'll hang in with it... and if you decide not to, I hope there are no hard feelings on any side.

And there you have my $.02 worth ;)
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jwhouk
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by jwhouk »

Don't get me wrong: I'm a fan of what Pablo has done with this strip. He still interjects the SOL and the occasional Teh Funny in where appropriate.

It does get a bit tedious to read, but that is a product of the scope of the medium. He's writing a graphic novel, one page at a time, and sometimes it doesn't make sense because one strip sets up the next and the next and the next.

I'm still waiting for Roy to show up and explain everything...
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duskglow
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by duskglow »

I get what you guys are saying, honest I do. If it were just an issue of different threads resolving themselves in time, I would completely get that and welcome it - I love a good story. But today's comic is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. I don't even know what they're talking about from frame to frame. For example:

"You had a safety code in place as I entered the stargate."

"Safety code?"

"Terminate orders with extreme prejudice"

Maybe I'm just stupid, but this doesn't make any sense to me. I realize that speech bubbles are only so small and you have to cram a lot in, but I have no idea what she's talking about. What does "safety code" even mean in this context? I just don't get it. I'm thinking about all sorts of different things "safety code" could mean, but none of them make any sense to me. This is just an incomprehensible page to me, complete gibberish. And the thing is, I really *want* to know what it means, but I just don't see it.
duskglow
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by duskglow »

All this said... I guess I've said my peace. It will go on without me and no one really cares what I think about it anyway, so I think I'm just going to go on my way, and after years, stop reading.

Thanks for all of the comics, I hope my criticisms are taken in the spirit they're intended, but when push comes to shove, I don't have the time and energy to devote to trying to figure this out.
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Das_Schlippo »

I'm in the same boat when it comes to being utterly confused as to what is happening, as well as being dismayed that the comic I loved is apparently gone.

I haven't read Wapsi from the beginning, but I've been a daily reader for over two years. I've gone back through the archives over time and caught up on almost everything. I love the characters. I love the way the art has evolved over time. I enjoy Pablo's style so much that I have purchased some of his work and regularly cruise eBay looking to buy more. I became so damn invested in this comic. That's why it's more than a little sad for me that I don't read daily anymore. Things started getting a little weird for me with the introduction of the vampire girls and this men in black business. I wasn't enjoying the development of that arc, but I figured it would pass and we'd be back to things as normal soon enough. However promising the Katherine-Atsali arc was at the beginning, it has spiraled out of control into this completely ridiculous spasm of HUGE REVELATION after HUGE REVELATION. It's like reading something by M Night Shyamalan, where the quality of the plot is secondary to throwing twists at the audience. I don't feel like this story is moving in any particular direction, it seems to be designed to just lurch back and forth between bigger and bigger twists. I'm sorry to say that it's just not entertaining anymore. Wapsi Square is on water skis, headed toward a jump that will launch it over a shark.

I came to this forum in search of a clue as to what's going on and it's just a sea of conjecture and speculation. It doesn't seem like anybody knows what's going on anymore. I guess some people are excited by that kind of thing, but I miss feeling like I actually knew the characters and their motivations.
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jwhouk
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by jwhouk »

You do have to pay attention when it comes to Wapsi. Pablo assumes that his audience is intelligent - sometimes too intelligent. :D

A basic summary of what's going on right now:

Kath wanted to try to find some more information that might help Monica find out more about her "Jaguar Girl" background. She stumbled on the whole story about the "Anasazi Dolls", decided to go to the library to do research - and that was where she met Atsali. (That is the correct spelling, by the way.)

Atsali takes Kath on a joyride through the southwestern US, where they discover that carving in the side of a pit. Two characters that Pablo introduced prior - "vampire girls", seemingly put out for no other reason than to provide fanservice - turn out to be "assistants" for Kath, working for the mythical MIB. Unfortunately, their "assistance" is seen as a negative for Kath - as we learn from a brief flashback involving helicopters and Warthogs along the Dead Sea. Kath realizes that the carving hides a "stargate" - which puts the intrepid pair somewhere in the middle of the Yucatan.

Meanwhile, we get a bit of background on our "Senior Director Oduya" - and it becomes evident that she's apparently either possessed or has MPD. (We already know, by the way, that Brandi has been given the label "The Chessmaster" by one of the vampire girls.) Kath and Atsali stumble upon a storage facility at a strange Bermuda Triangle-like location known as Mapimi, and find out that Brandi/Oduya essentially set it up where an entire civilization (the Etehtians) would be put in permanent "stasis".

Everything seems to be working - but a glitch develops: a set of quadruplets cause a "buffer overrun", and six of the children get placed in one storage crystal. Unfortunately, just as we find this out, Atsali decides to check out an "open slot" in the storage area - and ends up shorting out the entire system, while downloading the collective memories of the entire civilization into her (already somewhat addled) brain. This causes some problems - namely, the entire facility is about to go into self-destruct mode.

Just then, Bud appears, somewhat surprised that she was at the facility at Mapimi. That is when Atsali comes to the realization that Kath is the combination of all six of the Anasazi children in one person. Unfortunately, that's when the whole facility decides to go kablooey. Bud manages to protect the pair, discharge any remaining radiation and then brief them on what she's discovered: Brandi is possessed by an evil spirit - the spirit of the little girl who had died in her hands many thousands of years ago, before she became a golem.

Meanwhile, Senior Director Oduya has been "covering up" the little "accident" at Mapimi, first with the respective governments, and now with the two Vampire Girls. Bud shows up - and we know (but Brandi/Oduya doesn't) that she's intent on putting a monkey wrench in the possessing spirit's plans.

And with that - you're up to date.
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
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duskglow
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by duskglow »

Wow. I only had a third or so of that figured out.
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Mark N »

duskglow wrote:Wow. I only had a third or so of that figured out.
That is why we have these daily discussions. It helps to get the info into a coherent place. I may understand one part and someone else will get another part and so on. All in all we get the point (usually a day after Paul lets loose the punchline) and see that Paul is weaving a whole universe on threads he has given us over the years. This is a story that requires a keen and open mind to understand, but that is why we have this forum to understand things better. Me, I am just here for the scones in confusion corner and waiting for the demon with the hand-basket to show up.
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Dave
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Dave »

Very nicely summarized, jwhouk - nice job, and thanks!

I definitely agree with your point about the Forum. Like the Comments section before it, the Forum is a really essential tool for truly understanding Wapsi Square (as much as is humanly possible, that is!). Between us, the several dozen regular participants usually do manage to work out most of what's going on (as well as about fifty sets of incorrect speculations as well).

I know I wouldn't appreciate (or understand) Wapsi even half as much, if it weren't for the discussions here.
Last edited by Dave on Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Atomic
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Atomic »

Bravo, Jwhouk! I tip my OCD hat to you! (After carefully blocking the brim, removing all dust/lint/loose hair, and fluffing the little green feather)
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jwhouk
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by jwhouk »

Thankyewverramuch.

You don't know how long it took me to put that all together, though. (I have a little kitten running around, you know.)

I think today kinda clinches it that Bud knows, the Vamps know, and the goal is to play Royal Fizzbin with SDO.

And pray that she gets the Jack.
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
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Re: A bit of feedback...

Post by Dragon Hostler »

jwhouk wrote:You do have to pay attention when it comes to Wapsi. Pablo assumes that his audience is intelligent - sometimes too intelligent. :D

A basic summary of what's going on right now:

Kath wanted to try to find some more information that might help Monica find out more about her "Jaguar Girl" background. She stumbled on the whole story about the "Anasazi Dolls", decided to go to the library to do research - and that was where she met Atsali. (That is the correct spelling, by the way.)

Atsali takes Kath on a joyride through the southwestern US, where they discover that carving in the side of a pit. Two characters that Pablo introduced prior - "vampire girls", seemingly put out for no other reason than to provide fanservice - turn out to be "assistants" for Kath, working for the mythical MIB. Unfortunately, their "assistance" is seen as a negative for Kath - as we learn from a brief flashback involving helicopters and Warthogs along the Dead Sea. Kath realizes that the carving hides a "stargate" - which puts the intrepid pair somewhere in the middle of the Yucatan.

Meanwhile, we get a bit of background on our "Senior Director Oduya" - and it becomes evident that she's apparently either possessed or has MPD. (We already know, by the way, that Brandi has been given the label "The Chessmaster" by one of the vampire girls.) Kath and Atsali stumble upon a storage facility at a strange Bermuda Triangle-like location known as Mapimi, and find out that Brandi/Oduya essentially set it up where an entire civilization (the Etehtians) would be put in permanent "stasis".

Everything seems to be working - but a glitch develops: a set of quadruplets cause a "buffer overrun", and six of the children get placed in one storage crystal. Unfortunately, just as we find this out, Atsali decides to check out an "open slot" in the storage area - and ends up shorting out the entire system, while downloading the collective memories of the entire civilization into her (already somewhat addled) brain. This causes some problems - namely, the entire facility is about to go into self-destruct mode.

Just then, Bud appears, somewhat surprised that she was at the facility at Mapimi. That is when Atsali comes to the realization that Kath is the combination of all six of the Anasazi children in one person. Unfortunately, that's when the whole facility decides to go kablooey. Bud manages to protect the pair, discharge any remaining radiation and then brief them on what she's discovered: Brandi is possessed by an evil spirit - the spirit of the little girl who had died in her hands many thousands of years ago, before she became a golem.

Meanwhile, Senior Director Oduya has been "covering up" the little "accident" at Mapimi, first with the respective governments, and now with the two Vampire Girls. Bud shows up - and we know (but Brandi/Oduya doesn't) that she's intent on putting a monkey wrench in the possessing spirit's plans.

And with that - you're up to date.
Excellent synopsis. A couple additional points though; SDO probably rigged the self-destruct at Mapimi to kill the memory of the Etheitians completely [she had enough advance notice to bring in an audience], and/or to kill Katherine. Atsali's fryout/download of the mapimi computer thwarted this, thus preserving the memories as well as K&A themselves [with Acacia's assistance]. Atsali's download is probably the main goal of the Bibliothiki.

Purest speculation: Atsali may now have the knowledge to replace SDO, if not the maturity yet.
In any case, I'll betcha this story aint over till the Siren sings. ;)

I came over here for some 'non-daily' comments but got sucked into it anyway, Ha!

To get back on topic;
I'd rather a rambler like Wapsi than any number of comics that go Intermittent, or belly-up.

Confused? Me too at times.
Archives, archives, archives. A straight through reread of on-topic strips, will make a lot more sense that reading one strip a day. Oftentimes, reading the daily speculation frenzy will make it worse, not better.

Cerebus Syndrome. LMAO!
Bought Cerebus the Aardvark off the rack from #1 to about #150 faithfully. Got another 30-40 or so at random. I so get that!

War & Peace, uhh Dune... even funnier.

I enjoy the Stargate franchise, but am completely lost watching on a hit-or-miss basis. Gonna hafta buy seasons of it on DVD, and sit through it hard!
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