Someone on my friends list on facebook posted this from Tumblr
This is how this shit works:
When a person of color says that they hate white people, they hate white people as an institution (aka white supremacy/hegemony)
When a woman says that they hate men, they hate men as an institution (aka male dominance/patriarchy)
When a queer person says that they hate straight people, they hate straight people as an institution (aka heteronormativity)
When a trans* person says that they hate cisgender people, they hate cisgender people as an institution (aka gender essentialism/rigid gender roles)
SO WHEN ANY OF THESE PEOPLE SAY THAT THEY HATE ANY OF THESE GROUPS, DON’T RESPOND WITH “NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE/MEN/STRAIGHT/CIS PEOPLE ARE LIKE THAT”. WE KNOW THAT. IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU PERSONALLY. IT’S ABOUT INSTITUTIONS AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY, AS INSTITUTIONS, OPPRESS US. SHUT THE FUCK UP.
And this is the conversation that followed
Katie Gurecki: I am forever going to disagree with this. You can't have it one way. If someone says they hate ___, they hate blank. If it's not okay the other way, it's not okay this way. =/ Everything in life is a two way street.
Kara Stephens I gotta agree with Katie on this one. Double standards are what irritate me about a lot of things under this topic. If it's OK this way, then it has to be OK the other way.
Matt Blanchard I wrote out this huge post disagreeing with this post, but then realized. So far there are three white people disagreeing. So I'm not going to waste your time reading what I had wrote. Just think of it flipped, and how bad it'd sound.
Tasha Renee POC supremacy isnt a thing, female dominance isnt a thing, homonormativity(???) isnt a thing, and there are gender norms forced down our throats before we're even born. I'm not saying I hate the people, I hate the ideas. So I'm not gonna go around saying "I hate white people, I hate men, I hate straight people, I hate cis people." I'm just saying understand that there are some people out there who say those things but they don't hate the individuals, they hate the ideas, because they're tired of the oppression.
Tasha Renee Yeah, you girls understand the oppression of being females and everything, but think about people who have to deal with the combination of all of these things? I follow someone on tumblr who is non-white, non-cis, not-hetero. They have to put up with all of this shit on a daily basis. Lots of people who fall under that category get WAY more crap from the "norm" than necessary.
Tasha Renee Again I'm not saying I hate the people, I hate the ideas. White supremacy is some KKK bullcrap, patriarchy and heteronormativity are ancient ideas, and it's almost 2013. We seriously need to understand that you can't keep forcing gender norms on people, because it's extremely uncomfortable and honestly can make people hate themselves.
Tasha Renee Because of white supremacy, I hated myself for being black. Because of patriarchy, I hated myself for being a woman. Because of heteronormativity, people don't seem to acknowledge that asexuality is actually a thing. Because of gender norms, people kept telling me to act more "girly."
Tasha Renee I call bullshit on all that stuff.
Keshia Pitt Why am I utterly unsurprised that everyone disagreeing with that post is white.
Keshia Pitt Power differentials are a thing, people. Me saying I hate white people doesn't, you know, actually carry the consequence of white people being harmed. The other way around, however, is still very much true. Same with women and patriarchy, same with queer people and heteronormativity, same with cis people (and I'm cis myself) and gender norms. Ugh.
Keshia Pitt We say we hate you because we're tired of you hurting us and we're too busy protecting ourselves to sit and pick out every single white person who's "not like that" when most of you guys ARE, in fact, like that. If you're not like that then it shouldn't bother you.
Keshia Pitt Doubly disappointed that two of you are women, too, since when it comes to men and patriarchy you should know how this feels.
Keshia Pitt Cry me a river, write a sad poem in your journal about how upset you are that the mean black people are generalizing abusers that wear the same skin color you do, and move on.
Keshia Pitt Or better yet, educate yourselves and stop raising Tasha's blood pressure.
Kara Stephens And this is why I hate myself for being white sometimes. I can't have an opinion about something that disagrees with anyone of any other skin tone or I'm racist. I can't say what I mean to anyone because the race card gets thrown out.
I'm an Ambisexual White woman and you know what? I'm not feeling any of this male oppression you guys keep talking about. I didn't feel pressured by societal norms for sexuality growing up and I live in the goddamned bible belt! I felt more oppressed from the minority kids in my school who got away with /everything/. I was punched in the gut by a black kid and you know what happened? I paid him a couple bucks to leave me alone and I got in trouble for supporting a bully, but the little shithead didn't have anything happen to him.
When he did it to another little white girl and her mom complained to the school she was destroyed in the local paper for being racist.
There was a time in college when I politely asked this woman to move and what does she do? Turn to her friends about how Whitey Crackers are always trying to tell good honest folk what to do and that my people oppressed her people and I had no right to ask her to do anything. So I ended up on a rant about the Cherokee peoples (who I have some in my ancestry) that were forced on a march from their homeland, are still huddled on reservations and /still/ can't own their own freaking land. Then I was called a racist bitch from everyone around me before I turned and walked out.
THAT. THAT is the bullshit I hate. I hate this goddamn victim mentality that people have. Yeah, I've been pretty privileged my whole life, but my father just DIED a month ago and now I'm looking at losing my home and my car and pretty much everything else I own. But you know what? I'm not crying oh woe is me. I've picked myself up by my bootstraps and I'm taking out loans and figuring this damn thing out. I refuse to let anyone or anything beat me down. Women were oppressed for eons and you know what? I'm not crying foul. Neither are a lot of my friends going into fields dominated by Men. They are putting on their big girl panties and working hard to prove themselves. They don't sit in front of a computer complaining about the injustice of it all.
That's how it should be. Ok, so something shitty happened to you. Suck it up and move on.
Zeo, sweetie, I love you to death. I promise, but I can't just sit back and let people insult me because of what I look like.
Matt Blanchard How do you think it feels to be a while, straight guy?
Guess what, we still get discriminated against. Unless you've got money, people will discriminate you. I was the only white kid around growing up. Yeah, I went to a catholic school. Know why? Because my parents wanted me to have a decent education. Something the city's schools weren't good at. But enough about that part. Zeo, you've met me. Were you ever afraid that I'd try to do something inappropriate to you? We slept in the same house, ate the same food, etc. I'm going to guess you didn't feel threatened. Because you know me. So don't just assume everybody is out to get everybody. Some of us are just as tired of discrimination as you are. But I'm also tired of POC (and it's not just POC, it's many white people too) and both genders feeling entitled to anything. Nobody's entitled to anything, ever. You have to earn it.
Tasha Renee I don't assume everyone is out to get me. I'm saying I hate all of those ancient ideas of white supremacy and everything else that pushes me back. I'm a weak person. I've always been a weak person. I can't fight well like everyone else can.
Matt Blanchard Most of us hate it too love, seriously. I'm not going to say everybody does, otherwise it wouldn't exist. But you saw your big problem there. You're a strong person, and I know it. You just don't credit yourself enough
Kara Stephens I hate all the archaic ideas too, but "white supremacy" isn't really all that ancient. It's fairly recent, in all actuality. Well, recent being a relative term.
And I too, know that you're stronger than you think.
Keshia Pitt And then everyone proceeds to make this about their white guilt and white feelings instead of getting Tasha's point.
Kara Stephens I don't have any guilt actually. I haven't done a damn thing :'D
And yes, this is about MY PERSONAL feelings. I'm just pissy because you can't get away with making racist comments and no one calls you out on it. You, personally. Ma'am. Don't take this as a generalization.
Tasha Renee If I was strong I wouldn't still be hating myself after 23 years of being a black girl.
Keshia Pitt I'm just going to leave this masterpost here for all the ignorant white people in this thread because I have physics and biochemistry finals tomorrow and don't have time to babysit: http://vasundharaa.tumblr.com/post/3191 ... good-white
Kara Stephens Sweetie, you are strong. You just have to believe in yourself and shrug off what other people have said to you. Fuck them. Say it with me! Fuck the haters! I'm learning, slowly, that you just have to let the bullshit roll off. It's still hard for me after all the abuse I went through in school. Those people don't matter. The people who love you matter, ok hon?
Kara Stephens Mmm. Racism. It's okay when it's directed to white people :'D Thank you Miss Pitt for proving my point that hate is a two way street. I'm glad you've got strong opinions, that's awesome. But maybe that strength could be directed at equality and friendship instead of making people feel bad for who they are, mmk?
Keshia Pitt White people don't experience racism; also, get off your kumbaya high horse, thanks.
Keshia Pitt I'll talk to you later, Tasha!
Matt Blanchard First off, wait. White people don't experience racism? I'm...pretty sure you pointing out all of this is racism. Wait, here we go:
Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior. (So, by this. You saying that "we" are hurting you. White people are hurting you. That's..racist right?
also:
"We say we hate you because we're tired of you hurting us and we're too busy protecting ourselves to sit and pick out every single white person who's "not like that" when most of you guys ARE, in fact, like that. If you're not like that then it shouldn't bother you."
So that means it's cool if I say all black people are just as racist, or are abusive, because we're too busy protecting ourselves from getting mugged, etc to pick out every black person who isn't like that, when from the ones that I've met, most are like that. If you're not cruel, idiotic, etc. You shouldn't have a problem with me saying that, even if I don't believe it.
But you do, don't you? See how these double standard things go? I'm very sorry I don't know what it's like to not be white. But I do know what it's like to not be accepted, not feel like you're in the right body, etc. And trust me Zeo, love. Your skin color is only a big deal if you make it out to be. Hell, most of the time I forget you're black until you start posting stuff like this victimizing yourself as well as others. Most people, especially on the internet, don't see skin color. But people blow up on the ones that do, and just like everything else, it gets blown out of proportion.
Kara Stephens Well thank you for educating me. I'll just go say thank you to the next person that calls me a cracker and be thankful that I'll never experience hate for my skin color from anyone anywhere.
Tasha Renee Nobody. Is saying. Anything. To. Me. Looking into things daily, I have a much lower chance of getting anywhere because of who I am.
Tasha Renee Also guys, cracker =/= nigger. So don't act like you're hurt by being called a cracker.
Tasha Renee I'm done here.
Matt Blanchard A word is only powerful if you let it be. And while you might not think it's offensive, it is. Hell, being called anything can be offensive if it's said with hostility.
Kara Stephens Zeo, babe. I don't want to lose you as a friend. And I gotta say that being called a cracker /did/ hurt. I try my best to be polite to everyone i meet unless they give me reason not to and being called names... any kind of name in anger hurts me. How can you not see that?
And you only have a low chance of getting anywhere if you let it happen. Don't let it happen. Fuck the haters, remember? Who cares what anyone thinks of you. We /love/ you. I only want to see you happy again.
Tasha Renee Tell me this stuff when a black lady doesn't get fired because she defends her natural hair.
Matt Blanchard People get fired for shitty reasons all the time, not just black people. Not just mexicans, not just etc etc.
Kara Stephens That is an unfortunate thing that ONE asshole did. When that happens you pull on your big girl panties and find another job. I got fired for having the flu.
Katie Gurecki I like how I wasn't even addressing skin color when I was thinking about this, because you mention three things, too of which I fit. I've stopped trying to argue skin color. I get it, I'm white, so my opinion means nothing on the matter, (which is a racist thought if you ask me). But how about this? Hate is fucking hate. It doesn't go past that. If I say I hate men, then I am saying I hate all men. If I said, I hate men in general, and am tired of the oppression, bam, now I am saying that. I get hating an idea, but I also get that hate is a powerful thing. It's the fuel behind the oppression. Why the fuck would you try saying it's okay when it's the thing that is doing what you despise? If you have to hate anything, hate hate, not the haters. Hate racism, not racists. Sure, they are asses, but someone needs to take a step up. Judging someone on one small thing, an opinion, to me is just a small step from judging on their skin color, gender, or sexuality. So here, not even talking about skin color, just the two way street and redundancy.
Katie Gurecki Zeo, you are only limited by yourself. Just because less people have a job have in one field that are say, black and female, doesn't mean you don't have a shot. Don't be self defeatist. Maybe those low numbers are going to be the thing that leaves you needed. There's lots wrong with the world. But they don't change until people change them.
Helen Simone Williams So you actuall said, in actuallity, how "one person did one thing" and you went on some bullshit tangent about having a black bully.
And you are oppressed for being white and/or male
So basically
I'm seeing a lot of mess in one post that I'm not very willing to read because I'm not willing to hate strangers today.
Helen Simone Williams So, here's the thing, motherfuckers!
I lived in Greenwood, MS for a good deal of my life and 2 years ago a relation got lynched.
Last week I got called security on for being in my common room. He asked me, on the third floor of my key card locked dorm, if I lived there.
My school moved the lines to conveniently stuff me on the other side of town with a lot of other minorities. For the sake of their kids education.
Kara Stephens I said how quite a few people did quite a few things and the way to end this is not to hate people or institutions or colors who homes who countries or who gives a flying fuck what else.
The way to stop hate is not to hate more. The way to stop hate from coming at you is to stop hating. Katie made a great point, " I get hating an idea, but I also get that hate is a powerful thing. It's the fuel behind the oppression. Why the fuck would you try saying it's okay when it's the thing that is doing what you despise? "
I don't hate anyone. I hate ideas. I hate racism. I hate morons. I hate things that people do, not what they are. I wish that other people could see this too.
Helen Simone Williams I'm not even going to GET into how a family member of mine who is college educated and never had a police history and was a top notch citizen
Is going to probably serve up to 20
For a crime that only poor (minority) crimes would do.
Elizabeth Neff get that 'we all bleed red' bullshit out of here
Kara Stephens I thought this was about equality?
Helen Simone Williams My entire life is a series of racist-ass people,
Like you,
Scrutinizing people that don't look like /you/ and faulting them for being both that and "cryptic" (minding their own business.)
Elizabeth Neff hell yes its about equality but by saying 'oh we're all human' effectively erases poc suffering
Helen Simone Williams I dare you
Helen Simone Williams To call being ignored or resented
Helen Simone Williams The same thing
Helen Simone Williams As me and my lineage being jeopardized by breathing.
Helen Simone Williams Just so I can break out the cr- word.
Kara Stephens All people suffer. We all do. It's stupid to categorize people by how much they suffer. If I wanted to do that I could start yelling about the Palestinians or the Christians in Iraq or any number of other people who have lives that are horrible.
And I'm sorry that you hate me so much for having the opinion that all people are equal and we all suffer and we all need to pull our heads out of our asses sometimes. I'm sorry that you would like to hurt me just because I don't fit into the mold of what you like to see.
People are people are people. And we all suffer.
Elizabeth Neff no its not stupid to catagorize people by how much they suffer because some people suffer more than others.
and yeah, all people /should/ be treated equally, but theyre NOT and you need to treat them as such
Helen Simone Williams Break open a history book. Even if you watch the NEWS
You will SEE that someone is REPEATING Trayvon's case with someone FOR PLAYING MUSIC
You will SEE a police killed a handcuffed little boy and he said it was a suicide
I know they were said in passing, and written off as "incidents", but open your EYES.
Helen Simone Williams Are you stupid.
Helen Simone Williams You can't HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT PEOPLE LIVING AND DYING.
Helen Simone Williams You PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE ASSHOLE.
Helen Simone Williams We ALL SUFFER. My ass.
We all suffer and some people can ignore it because its CONVENIENT.
Elizabeth Neff ^^^^ this exactly
Helen Simone Williams How many racism or race courses have you taken.
Helen Simone Williams Gender and women's courses.
Helen Simone Williams GLBTQ courses.
Helen Simone Williams Have you been involved in civil rights?
Helen Simone Williams Has it occurred to you that ALL OF THOSE THINGS exist for a reason.
Helen Simone Williams I like how you came in here and effectively wrote off events as racist because they involved people of color.
Helen Simone Williams And then you drown out other people's concerns by saying they were isolated.
Kara Stephens I've been involved in many GLBTQ rights issues over the years since it came to my attention in high school. And I haven't taken any of those courses in college because I'm at a Tech school and they simply aren't offered. My education is centered around a job. being a Vet tech. Helping animals.
I haven't written off anything. It sucks. It truly does the things that have happened to you and the people you know. But it doesn't help to dwell on things. I've been told that over and over again by my psychiatrist. Don't dwell. Let go of the past. Work towards future goals.
I'm sorry that you think I'm a hateful person because I'm not. I love Tasha more than I can possibly say. If i could get her and rescue her from the life she's living in then I would. I want her to feel good about herself because she is a beautiful intelligent woman. I want desperately for her to believe that.
Helen Simone Williams Dwell.
Helen Simone Williams Motherfucker. The reason it sucks ass. Is because racism is a SYSTEM.
Helen Simone Williams It is people LIVING and seeing their celebrities whitewashed. It is having your accent being a joke. It's being written off as a fetish.
Helen Simone Williams It's LIFE.
Kara Stephens My accent is a joke to people too. But I guess it doesn't matter, does it?
Helen Simone Williams Y O U are dwelling. We are breathing and dying slowly. The only way we can "NOT DWELL" is by dying.
Helen Simone Williams Nope. Because google didnt dedicate a side of the site to it you derailing asshole.
Helen Simone Williams Tell me why there is no "white people" costume or "white" way to dress.
Elizabeth Neff how is an accent in any way comparable to racism
Helen Simone Williams But there are black accents, Mexican foods, Aboriginal American costumes...
Elizabeth Neff 'joke about' is completely different than being killed over
Helen Simone Williams THAT'S racism. Being able to dehumanized or write off PoC concerns or lives or whatever.
Helen Simone Williams This isn't bullying. I don't care about bullying. I've dealt with those.
Helen Simone Williams This is RACISM it can't be written off.
Helen Simone Williams Where are you going to go???
Kara Stephens Because "white" just like "black" is an inaccurate term for skin color with many nationalities and cultures attached to it. I could dress German. Or even Polish. Or perhaps I could look into the beautiful clothing from Namibia. Or even South Africa...See More
Helen Simone Williams To the friends that go on your status and tell you that you're wrong?
Elizabeth Neff south africa is white people tho
Elizabeth Neff and you can wish all you want but its still very hurtful to poc when you effectively erase all their suffering NOW (not back in the day but now)
Helen Simone Williams You know damn well that that is different FROM A CONTINENT
Kara Stephens It was just an example, so was German and Polish. I'd like to try and find some traditional Egyptian clothing too, or Moroccan. And yes, I'm aware it is. I don't think there's any basis for separation here. We all wear the same things.
I'm not erasing anyone's suffering. I never said it didn't exist. It does. The hate exists and i wish people would grow up and treat everyone equally. We're heading into 2013 and Racism is something we has humans should have outgrown by now.
Helen Simone Williams And you know damn well people don't say "Nambian" print they say "African" print
Elizabeth Neff race =/= nationality
Keshia Pitt You're perpetuating racism right now, funnily enough.
Kara Stephens I apologise Elizabeth, you're right.
Elizabeth Neff no we dont all wear the same things. we're all incredibly different and we need to acknowledge that
Helen Simone Williams It was a shit example?????
Also white people made race a concept, so you're preaching to the choir.
Elizabeth Neff SO THE WHITE PERSON GETS THE APOLOGY?
Elizabeth Neff FOR REAL?
Keshia Pitt ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SURPRISED
Kara Stephens You get an apology because I made a mistake in my vocabulary.
Helen Simone Williams Ok, you also missed the entire costume point.
Elizabeth Neff but youre not going to
Elizabeth Neff okay
Keshia Pitt white people only ever listen to other white people donchaknow
Helen Simone Williams Lol wyt ppl
Keshia Pitt She talked down to two POC in this thread and yet white Elizabeth comes in and says a few things and she gets the apology I cannot
Kara Stephens I'm not apologising for having an opinion. I'm not going to feel guilty because some people are douchebags especially when i was attacked the moment I said anything.
Keshia Pitt THREE POC counting her own firned
Elizabeth Neff opinions can be wrong dude
Kara Stephens I never Put Zeo down. I love that girl like my own flesh and fucking blood you leave her out of this
Helen Simone Williams Yeah and you're one of them
Elizabeth Neff you were attacked because you came in and made this post about yoUR WHITE FEELINGS
Helen Simone Williams We JUST said
Keshia Pitt Your opinion's racist and you're racist, unfortunately. And your racism's hurting your friend because you refuse to acknowledge that her self-esteem issues have EVERYTHING to do with racism.
Helen Simone Williams That you can't treat this like an opinion
Keshia Pitt She hates herself because RACISM MADE IT THAT WAY. A racism that YOU ARE PERPETUATING by erasing her experiences.
Helen Simone Williams It's dehumanizing to treat
Helen Simone Williams Dying people as an opinion
Helen Simone Williams AKA racist
Keshia Pitt You are putting Zeo down right now.
Tasha Renee Kara, I love you, but I honestly did feel like you guys were talking down to me as if my suffering as a POC is just normal human suffering. It's not the same thing. It really isn't. I asked these guys to help me because I can't seem to get the message across.
Keshia Pitt You are ignoring Zeo's experiences with race and racism.
Helen Simone Williams And it's sad
Helen Simone Williams Because baby honey
Helen Simone Williams I'm the big guns
Helen Simone Williams It's gotten this bad.
Helen Simone Williams CODE WHITE CODE WHITE CODE WHITE
Keshia Pitt We're here because we're sick of seeing white people dismiss our experiences and pain in favor of talking about their own. Which is what you and white person #2 and #3 did up there to Zeo.
Helen Simone Williams (It's funny because white people)
Tasha Renee I seriously want you to read this stuff and look into it. These guys aren't the only ones who are irritated with this chat.
Keshia Pitt You're a shitty friend.
Kara Stephens Zeo... Zeo, love. I'm sorry. I never meant to hurt you.
Tasha Renee C'mon don't call her a shitty friend. Just tell her she's made some mistakes.
Keshia Pitt Then maybe next time instead of hurting her over and over and over you could be a little less willfully ignorant?
Tasha Renee I still consider you a good friend but PLEASE listen what I have to say and stop shrugging off my experiences.
Keshia Pitt Fine. She made some mistakes which resulted in her hurting you. Which is, you know, shitty friend behavior.
Tasha Renee I lost an ENTIRE group of friends
Helen Simone Williams No make her feel guilty rub her nose in it
Tasha Renee because they told me I was overreacting to racism
Keshia Pitt And you're telling her the same thing - that she's overreacting to racism. Just like they did.
Tasha Renee So please just take the time to look at this and understand what we're getting at. This is what my friend posted and these are hundreds and thousands of voices that need to be heard
Tasha Renee but they're always talked down to
Tasha Renee http://vasundharaa.tumblr.com/post/3191 ... good-white
This is a resource post for all the Good White...
vasundharaa.tumblr.com
This is a resource post for all the Good White Person™s out there. You know, the...See More
Kara Stephens Zeo, I'll never stop being your friend. I love you. I'm sorry that it looked like i was making light of it. But I swear to you, i wasn't. I was just saying that it's not ok to hate the haters.
Keshia Pitt oh my god stop making excuses
Tasha Renee But that's the way I took it, Kara.
Helen Simone Williams Well bruh
Tasha Renee Like I said, I lost an entire group of friends because I overreacted to racism.
Keshia Pitt apologize if you're going to apologize and call it a day intent is not magic you were racist towards your friend and that's that
Helen Simone Williams Here's the deal
Tasha Renee I tried to explain to them how hurtful it was to me
Elizabeth Neff so you should be nice to people who kick you while your down every god damn day?
Tasha Renee I had a complete relapse and wanted to die
Tasha Renee they made me feel that bad
Helen Simone Williams Yeah.
Helen Simone Williams It's frustrating.
Helen Simone Williams The entire argument
Keshia Pitt And you did the same thing as people who drove Zeo to that. Congratulations.
Helen Simone Williams Was well, it's not only frustrating but EXTREMELY not ok to ACT like it is
Helen Simone Williams And express that vocally.
Helen Simone Williams And so, that's why what you did was wrong because
Helen Simone Williams It's not fair. If she is going to be born to this world, let her breathe as much as she can. That's all you really can do.
Tasha Renee I love you Kara Stephens, Matt Blanchard, Katie Gurecki, but they're right. You guys have made me feel exactly the same way. How dare I suffer because racism is a thing.
Helen Simone Williams She is not being wrong for being frustrated and acknowledging it and being /wary/ of people who treat her like shit.
Kara Stephens And I'm sorry that the meaning of what i was saying became totally misconstrued.
Kara Stephens But... this reaction? This was an overreaction. I need to go before I start backsliding myself.
Keshia Pitt No one misconstrued what you said. Just that what you said was racist.
Tasha Renee Hush guys, that's enough.
Seriously. Someone tell me how the hell that happened, because I'm confused.
