Only Individual 2015-06-19

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jeffepp
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by jeffepp »

elanora wrote:This makes it seem like Atsali has some other sort of neural deficit rather than autism. She doesn't really display any other autism signs, and if she was as much of a high-functioning autist as she seems to be, practicing would have helped. Prosopagnosia can't be it, as she can recognize people, but perhaps there's some variant or other sensory disorder. Magic is also on the field, so it's possible all bets are off (a wizard did it).
This is what I said yesterday, but you did it with less words. I... can run on.

I would think that if it was autism, there would be other indicators, and there would be a diagnosis. Something else, most of those I have interacted with, that have been diagnosed with autism, have impulse control issues, except where sexual maters fall. Atsali seems to have too much control over most impulses (i.e. she needs prodding to do a lot of stuff), but not a lot when the hormones are involved.
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Dave
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Dave »

Brasten wrote:
DilyV wrote:Aunt Monica looks happy... Pickle's smile is extremely infectious...
Happy children are infectious. ;) Especially when you let yourself go and just enjoy the moment of them living the moment.
That could be part of why Atsali can read her. Castela is an exuberant child, and she broadcasts her feelings at an EIRP of about a megawatt or so.

She practices, too... if I recall correctly, Pickle's "Fairy Stomp" performance took highest honors in her kiddygarten Interpretive Dance recital. :twisted:
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Elvis
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Elvis »

jwhouk wrote:Yep, we have officially reached "that point" in the comic.

Even the fans don't recognize the MAIN CHARACTER anymore.
Who did not recognize Atsali?


;)
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by AmriloJim »

oldmanmickey wrote:.... it is cannon that her song does not effect anyone she loves.
Actually, the love flows the other direction... her song does not affect anyone who truly loves her.
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Gyrrakavian
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Gyrrakavian »

Here's a short video for anyone who believes the only 10%brain usage myth
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=YxIS3XxfFS0
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Atomic
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Atomic »

We're running into anthropormorphism - assigning (fully) human emotions/motivations to a non-human entity. For example, the thing about dogs, horses, etc, being color blind -- no, they see red and green just fine, but they lack the blue receptors. Thus their world colors appear differently than we'd see.

As Oldmanmickey pointed out, it may be a normal trait of Sirens / Succubi to be blind to facial emotional cues -- they're predators and those cues might negatively affect their predation. Like, for example, pitying their would-be meal! In Pickle's case, Atsali might be cluing in on body posture rather than face. Thus she's face blind, but sensitive to whole body postures.

Pickle emotes with her pose, doesn't she?
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GlytchMeister
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by GlytchMeister »

It may also be due to Castela being part plant. Her face, at least when it isn't glamoured, may still be generally humanoid, but it might be inhuman enough to not trigger the facial expression blindness.
This works with both the human version of facial expression blindness, as well as the Siren Predator Facial Expression Blindness. I think Humans were Siren's main prey, so they would most likely resist influence from human faces, but not Whatsit faces.
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by zachariah »

[quote="Dave"

DilyV: Aunt Monica looks happy... Pickle's smile is extremely infectious...

Brasten: Happy children are infectious. ;) Especially when you let yourself go and just enjoy the moment of them living the moment.

That could be part of why Atsali can read her. Castela is an exuberant child, and she broadcasts her feelings at an EIRP of about a megawatt or so.

She practices, too... if I recall correctly, Pickle's "Fairy Stomp" performance took highest honors in her kiddygarten Interpretive Dance recital. :twisted:[/quote]
We keep making the mistake of thinking Pickle is a human child, she is not. She was left at the orphanage after rescue by the Fae from some un-named organization. At that young age I doubt she had much, if any, humanoid form. I can imagine her as a young bush being handed over with instructions: Water her daily and feed weekly. Watch for drooping leaves.

The point being that she has no referent to facial expressions beyond what she has seen. When young her shape changing skills were untaught and probably prone to her emotional state. Being very young she adapted and learned. First to take a shape others liked more. Then seeing different facial expressions and matching them to actions. Being young she had no subtlety and copied facial expression in an exaggerated manner. She learned a smile helped people be nicer to her. The anger face encouraged them to avoid her. If you look at past strips the range of expressions she has are limited and she uses happy/glee mostly. That one gets the most positive reaction from others. By being limited to a small range of expressions, and all of them displayed in the most overt manner, Sali learned to read them on Pickle. But the normal range of humanoid expression is far more extensive and cover a much wider range of emotional content. She can read really broad expressions by thinking about what they mean with pickle. But anything less will go right over her head or confuse her.

Siren songs doesn't affect those who love her, not those who she loves. So family members are not automatically safe.

Final thought: If siren wants to go on a diet does she eat midgets? Thin ones would be a low fat diet.

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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by AmriloJim »

Most dietitians suggest smaller portions as an effective strategy.
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by jwhouk »

Elvis wrote:
jwhouk wrote:Yep, we have officially reached "that point" in the comic.

Even the fans don't recognize the MAIN CHARACTER anymore.
Who did not recognize Atsali?


;)
^5 for that one.
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by illiad »

Gyrrakavian wrote:Here's a short video for anyone who believes the only 10%brain usage myth
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=YxIS3XxfFS0
let me unmangle that for PC users... :)

I am sure the full answer is not known yet... there is a case of one very intelligent guy, whose brain scan revealed his brain to be at least 30% fluid!!! :shock: :o
- It's all genetics, some are lucky enough to look very young, some not..

I think the real answer is that brain pathways are set down early in life, and if you have not experienced much, space is just used up...

I hear plenty of stories of young growing up in more 'connected to nature' societies, eg 'American Indian', who learn to recognise all manner of things (they *know* it will rain soon, understand animals etc..), that may seem like paranormal perception, but city people have blunted senses...

just like any organ, if it is fully exercised when growing, it will grow far more able than 'usual'..:)

yes, 10% use is a lazy phrase, it is like saying to a 'weak guy' that his muscles are only 10% used, when he could have 'pumped iron' at an early age, to make the muscles bigger!
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Catawampus »

shadowinthelight wrote:Is Castela different enough that she gets around Atsali's face reading deficit? Does she give off other pheromone/psychic/ect signals that help Atsali make the connection? So many possibilities with a unique Whatsit.
Insidious Whatsit mind-control spores.
jwhouk wrote:thus "needing a bra by morning"
That part at least was apparently just normal development for sirens, judging from what other characters (e.g. Bud) said about it.
AmriloJim wrote:Actually, the love flows the other direction... her song does not affect anyone who truly loves her.
Or who truly hates her, perhaps.
Atomic wrote:Pickle emotes with her pose, doesn't she?
So Pickle's a pretty posey?
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by kingklash »

illiad wrote:
Gyrrakavian wrote:Here's a short video for anyone who believes the only 10%brain usage myth
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=YxIS3XxfFS0
let me unmangle that for PC users... :)

I am sure the full answer is not known yet... there is a case of one very intelligent guy, whose brain scan revealed his brain to be at least 30% fluid!!! :shock: :o
- It's all genetics, some are lucky enough to look very young, some not..

I think the real answer is that brain pathways are set down early in life, and if you have not experienced much, space is just used up...

I hear plenty of stories of young growing up in more 'connected to nature' societies, eg 'American Indian', who learn to recognise all manner of things (they *know* it will rain soon, understand animals etc..), that may seem like paranormal perception, but city people have blunted senses...

just like any organ, if it is fully exercised when growing, it will grow far more able than 'usual'..:)

yes, 10% use is a lazy phrase, it is like saying to a 'weak guy' that his muscles are only 10% used, when he could have 'pumped iron' at an early age, to make the muscles bigger!
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Prester Fred »

On the subject of expression blindness as an adaptation to a diet of humans:

Since this is the Wapsiverse rather than the ActualGreekMythologyverse, we don't know that sirens eat humans. It's entirely possible that this is just as false as vampirism being transmitted via bite.

Also, just because Devyn is Poseidon's daughter doesn't mean she has to be thousands of years old, and even if she is it doesn't mean she has to be a "known" mythological figure. I'm personally assuming she's only as old as she seems to be until we're told otherwise.
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by shadowinthelight »

Prester Fred wrote:Also, just because Devyn is Poseidon's daughter doesn't mean she has to be thousands of years old, and even if she is it doesn't mean she has to be a "known" mythological figure.
Actually she is Poseidon's niece. The way he get's around there is no knowing who or how old her parents are either.
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by DinkyInky »

BlackFulcrum wrote:For me the jury is still out on what her particular disability is, I've reread the archive from her introduction till today, and I can't really tell 100%.

It could be some form of Autism (Aspergers/High Functioning in particular) but since every case is different it's hard to tell, mostly because we haven't seen all aspects of her personal life that would help to identify it.

From what I've learned myself about me, and what I've been told by my therapist about other Aspergers cases, there are some indicators, like her having trouble with reading facial expressions and body language, her somewhat odd formal way of speaking, even the fact that she can only "read" Castela, I for instance can only read my parents really, and that's because I spent the most time with them, the same could go for her with Castela.

But like I said, I don't want to nail it down just to those factors, Aspergers differs from person to person, for instance, because of the inability to read facial expressions most become unsure and introverted around strangers, often not facing them, looking at the floor or over the shoulder of the person they are having a conversation with, not actively participating in conversations, but there are also some who actually talk up a storm to a perfect stranger, my therapist told me about an other client of hers who just started conversations with total strangers over how his day went, whether they were interested or not, and because he couldn't read facial expressions and body language, he couldn't tell people were not interested in what he had to say till they actually said so verbally.

I also am missing some clear tells, like the limited amount of interests that most, if not all, aspies have, but that might be because we haven't seen all of her life and hobbies/interests, also things like how scheduled or not her life is, us Aspies tend to live the day by a very set mental schedule.(note: tend to)

And finally, I don't want to say it's this or that disorder, because Atsali is 16 year old fictional incubus-siren hybrid girl, I'm a 34 year old normal human guy, not everything applies, I have poor understanding of what girls go trough in their teens, so everything I thought that pertained to that was left out of my analysis.
My own Aspergers was identified when I was 31 years old, now while looking back it did explain a great deal about me, and why I'm the way I am and not more "normal" , but hell if I know everything from my teens and what odd thing could be pointed out as particularly Aspergers, or just being an hormonal teen, only the really clearly big things stand out as "ya that's probably Aspergers, and that's probably normal odd teen", so even my own understanding of myself during my teens is vague at best.
You are very fortunate you could get one. Every time I go, I get told it's rare, or impossible for a girl to have it. I have had three unofficial diagnosis, but it's not enough. It's getting more frustrating every time I try to get diagnosed. They also are changing a lot of Aspies to PDD-NOS, which is a lot harder to pin down.
You can be sociable, yet socially awkward. My filters don't always engage, and I ramble on. Most folk won't deal with me because I'm either annoying, or intimidating. Change freaks me out to the point of neurosis, or depression.

They vary greatly from boy to girl. Just my observation.
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Catawampus »

DinkyInky wrote:You are very fortunate you could get one. Every time I go, I get told it's rare, or impossible for a girl to have it. I have had three unofficial diagnosis, but it's not enough. It's getting more frustrating every time I try to get diagnosed. They also are changing a lot of Aspies to PDD-NOS, which is a lot harder to pin down.
You can be sociable, yet socially awkward. My filters don't always engage, and I ramble on. Most folk won't deal with me because I'm either annoying, or intimidating. Change freaks me out to the point of neurosis, or depression.
Obviously it must be because you are a siren, and ordinary human doctors aren't aware of the symptoms of sirenness. Yep.

Now excuse me while I go check to make sure that I have a good sturdy ship mast or a plentiful supply of wax, just in case. . .
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by BlackFulcrum »

DinkyInky wrote:You are very fortunate you could get one. Every time I go, I get told it's rare, or impossible for a girl to have it. I have had three unofficial diagnosis, but it's not enough. It's getting more frustrating every time I try to get diagnosed. They also are changing a lot of Aspies to PDD-NOS, which is a lot harder to pin down.
You can be sociable, yet socially awkward. My filters don't always engage, and I ramble on. Most folk won't deal with me because I'm either annoying, or intimidating. Change freaks me out to the point of neurosis, or depression.

They vary greatly from boy to girl. Just my observation.
They do, from what I remember from my therapy sessions is that Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) in general, and Aspergers in particular is far harder to determine in women then in men, mostly because for some reason women compensate for the disabilities better then men.
Some women with ASD have told researchers that they compensate by mimicking others in an effort to fit in, down to using the exact same inflections that others used.

Okay I just looked it up, cause it was like one or two sessions we talked about the difference between men and women with ASD, and this whole thing made me curious.
A few examples of the differences are (IMPORTANT NOTE: these are only examples from scientific research, in reality the differences are much more nuanced and people with ASD will often recognize themselves in aspects of both genders):

Social contacts
Men - No real social contacts
Women - Social contacts present

Interests and Fascinations
Childhood:
Boys - "autistic" interests like Planes, Trains, Ancient Egypt, etc
Girls - obsessive like interest in normal girl interests like horses, princesses, etc
Adulthood:
Men - "Autistic interests" like science and technology, for instance how does a jet engine work, airplane spotting, memorizing train tables, or even molecular formula's
Women - Near obsessive interest in normal subjects like reading, or watching tv shows

Also it is know that people with ASD can "blow up" over something trivial, something I can attest to myself, tho apparently this is more common in men then in women, women are on the other hand more likely to internalize, with fear and depressions as a result.
I mentioned for instance "living scheduled" in my original post, but regularity, or rigid and patterned behavior might be a better wording, having to go off of that pattern, being told to do something outside of your "day plan" can cause such an episode.

As a final note, I use Aspergers Syndrome a lot, because that's what I have, and when I was taught about it by my therapist the DSM-IV (DSM is the "bible" of psychological world) was still being used, they have since switched to the DSM-5 where Aspergers, and other subcategories of ASD have been eliminated, it is now part of a general ASD, which handles cases on severity, generally classifying what was Aspergers Syndrome as "Mild ASD" rather then a separate disorder.
There's still criticism from some scientists and professionals on the DSM-5 for removing the Aspergers category, as there are some differences between the original definitions of High Functioning Autism and Aspergers Syndrome, and how they were diagnosed, and they shouldn't be shoved in the same box in the DSM-5, the workgroup that set up the DSM-5 disagrees on the basis that there was actually a lot of overlap, and the differences could be down to individual cases, for the simple fact that no two cases of ASD are the same, even if they have the same diagnosis.
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by lake_wrangler »

zachariah wrote:We keep making the mistake of thinking Pickle is a human child, she is not. She was left at the orphanage after rescue by the Fae from some un-named organization. At that young age I doubt she had much, if any, humanoid form. I can imagine her as a young bush being handed over with instructions: Water her daily and feed weekly. Watch for drooping leaves.

The point being that she has no referent to facial expressions beyond what she has seen. When young her shape changing skills were untaught and probably prone to her emotional state. Being very young she adapted and learned. First to take a shape others liked more. Then seeing different facial expressions and matching them to actions. Being young she had no subtlety and copied facial expression in an exaggerated manner. She learned a smile helped people be nicer to her. The anger face encouraged them to avoid her. If you look at past strips the range of expressions she has are limited and she uses happy/glee mostly. That one gets the most positive reaction from others. By being limited to a small range of expressions, and all of them displayed in the most overt manner, Sali learned to read them on Pickle. But the normal range of humanoid expression is far more extensive and cover a much wider range of emotional content. She can read really broad expressions by thinking about what they mean with pickle. But anything less will go right over her head or confuse her.
Interesting, and even plausible.

But the bottom line is: Atsali doesn't do subtle, and Castela is anything but subtle! :lol:
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Re: Only Individual 2015-06-19

Post by Dave »

lake_wrangler wrote:But the bottom line is: Atsali doesn't do subtle, and Castela is anything but subtle! :lol:
I think you've just pointed out the common key element in their personal metaphors... the thing that truly makes them sisters.

Castela is subtle, like a brick thrown through a window... and Atsali, of course, is built like a brick outhouse.

Clearly they were both born under the astrological sign of Adobe (a little-known constellation in the southwest part of the zodiac).

This also explains why Atsali has chosen Jin (Adeobe) as her mentor.
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