Shouting At Me 2015-06-18

[oldmanmickey]

While all of these conditions are interesting they all seem to be the rest of some kind of brain damage in the individual. This is a way makes sense for Sirens and other predators and for them becomes a survival trait.

Animal predators do not think about emotional, or social, connections when hunting and killing their prey. But intelligent predators would. To be an effective predator would require that they are able to ignore, or discount, emotional connection, or feeling, towards their prey. If they couldn't then eventually they would self destruct due to emotional conflicts from eating their friends or family. So they can not tell that their prey is terrified and probably do not care if they are.

But one point does bother me. If Sali cannot read social clues then how does Pickle manage to tease her so effectively? A lot of teasing depends on facial clues and body language. Makes you wonder how Pickle survived doesn't it? After all pickle likes to yank the tail of the tiger.

Going with my theory that its a species trait she can still feel emotions and has the full range of them, she just cant see them in others. Sorta like that one Star Trek next gen episode Darmok, where the entire race spoke an interpretive emotional language that the universal translator could not handle. This would have no effect though on her own feelings and emotional attachments.

[tophoo]

I see a lot of interesting ideas in here- a lot of valid points.
I don't think I quite subscribe to any of them yet, but some great observation, just the same.

I'm still grinding gears on Sali, and the noises coming from the transmission mostly sound like, "Additional pathos! Yay."

Writer's discretion, of course. No argument there- not my characters, not my story.
But still...

Yay.

[jeffepp]

She can understand tone of voice. She got when the girl hesitated about doing clothing for her.

This might be a version of face blindness. She can recognize the face, but not the expressions. Consider facial expressions as a kind of language, that her mind has problems translating into emotional understanding. She gets emotions, and understands when people talk about emotions, but cannot connect facial cues with them. Or, it's like color blindness, when shades of color are used to depict things.

We forget that an eyebrow movement, shift of the mouth, wave of a hand, or a wink are all part of how we convey the subtle context of our emotions, and therefor, the real meaning of our words. A wink is as good as a nod to a blind man, and that may be the case with birdgirl, as well. And, this may explain why she didn't seem to get the hints and euphemisms that have been used to explain things to her.

"She likes you" <wink>
"Yes, she's a good friend."
"I mean, she really likes you." <waggles eyebrows>
"Well, sure, that's why we hang out."
"I mean, that way." <licks lips>
"What is which way?"

Now, read that without the stage directions. What does it literally say. The real context is in the facial cues, not the words, themselves.

Now, imagine having spent your life unable to see these cues, but knowing they are there. You stop trying to see them, because you cannot. You don't even try to figure what people are trying to say without saying, so you let things go by you. One ringtone sounds like another to the tone deaf, so you stop checking your phone each time one rings, because it usually isn't yours.

We, as humans, have lots of things that we are blind or deaf to, and that doesn't make us autistic. Which is not to say anything against someone that is autistic, but it is an over used word, and diagnosis. And, it seems to be what a lot of people jump to when someone is a little different. Atsali may, be autistic, or may not be. It is hard to diagnose many of the "blindnesses", as they are not really about seeing something, but seeing (or not seeing) something IN a thing. A child may go years, getting bad marks for not knowing one color from another, before someone bothers to check to see if they can see the difference between them. Someone that cannot tell one number from another, is just bad at math, unless Dyscalculia is diagnosed. And, as children, we have issues expressing our selves, and why we cannot spell, or carry a tune, or taste the difference between salt and sugar. We just can't, and because we can't understand how others can do those things, we can't express that either. Further, there are degrees of "blindness" (i.e. red/green color blindness, versus full color blindness), and so someone can go years "getting by" at something, just enough not to trigger anyone to think to test them.

[Dave]

She can understand tone of voice. She got when the girl hesitated about doing clothing for her.

This might be a version of face blindness. She can recognize the face, but not the expressions. Consider facial expressions as a kind of language, that her mind has problems translating into emotional understanding. She gets emotions, and understands when people talk about emotions, but cannot connect facial cues with them. Or, it's like color blindness, when shades of color are used to depict things.

We forget that an eyebrow movement, shift of the mouth, wave of a hand, or a wink are all part of how we convey the subtle context of our emotions, and therefor, the real meaning of our words.

Yup. And, most of those that you've just listed are evolved human signalling modes. By the standards of most animals, humans have extremely mobile and expressive faces - the musculature and nerve structure of our faces is unusually flexible. We use it to convey information about our emotional state, in ways which most animals cannot. We out-do even our closest relatives among the primates.

So, it wouldn't be surprising if a lot of the subtlety of human expression might be lost on an anthropoid-shaped para species with a different evolutionary path. Other species "message" their emotions in different ways.

I know that dogs can be quite good at picking up on the emotional state of their owners, but it's a good question as to how much of this is "seen" in our faces, and how much is from other cues (tone of voice and posture, for example).

[illiad]

dogs have acute sense of smell, or something like that.. My friends dog knows I am coming(behind the closed window in the room!), when I have only just turned into the road!!

horses have a totally different way of showing 'emotions' by the motions of their ears...

[Gyrrakavian]

Umm, either Sirenfolk have a social blind spot you could drive a fleet of semis through, or we may have confirmation that Atsali is autistic spectrum. Actually both of those can be true at the same time so...

Hmmm... could be. Though, some of us try to practice reading expressions and tone. Some of us are better at it than others, hence the "high functioning" prefix some of us get. Hell, we've had two autistic presidents (probably). Jefferson and Nixon both meet at least 8 of the basic 15 qualifiers/signs of having an autism spectrum disorder.

I was going to suggest she still had an Ethitian or two rattling around upstairs.

[Gyrrakavian]

While all of these conditions are interesting they all seem to be the rest of some kind of brain damage in the individual. This is a way makes sense for Sirens and other predators and for them becomes a survival

Autism IS NOT brain damage. Autism IS NOT mental retardation.

Using a computer analogy, autism is a brain that's just wired a bit differently than a neurotypical ("normal") brain. Sure, there are those processes and functions that we do varying degrees of far better at, but there are also those that the program for wasn't coded very well.

[illiad]

zachariah: be careful where you tread, do not believe stupid opinions of stupid people who publish lazy headline grabbing titles just to shock and sell more copy...

dont just believe - do your research..

and DO remember Wapsi is NOT real life....

[zachariah]

While all of these conditions are interesting they all seem to be the rest of some kind of brain damage in the individual. This is a way makes sense for Sirens and other predators and for them becomes a survival

Autism IS NOT brain damage. Autism IS NOT mental retardation.

Using a computer analogy, autism is a brain that's just wired a bit differently than a neurotypical ("normal") brain. Sure, there are those processes and functions that we do varying degrees of far better at, but there are also those that the program for wasn't coded very well.

I did due my research. almost everything mentioned theses conditions, not autism as they have not figured that one totally out yet. They all stem from malfunctions in the various brain systems for recognizing, or interpreting, these visual signals in the brain. Either in seeing them, or decoding them. No matter what it stems from something is incomplete, or not working, in the brain. That is brain damage. A damaged system is one that has faults, or problems that prevent it operating in the intended way. Any attempt to take this beyond that statement is being done by the reader, not me. The problem is we assume brain damage is always something major and reduces a person to being maybe less than human. That is not the case. People with no long term memory suffer from brain damage just as Sali does. It makes their life hard but they can cope.

[kingklash]

It does explain a lot about Atsali. But, she might need to lay this one out early on in any relationship, if the look on Jessie's face is any indication. But She nailed it too, with the "On the ball" line.

[Dave]

They all stem from malfunctions in the various brain systems for recognizing, or interpreting, these visual signals in the brain. Either in seeing them, or decoding them. No matter what it stems from something is incomplete, or not working, in the brain. That is brain damage. A damaged system is one that has faults, or problems that prevent it operating in the intended way.

Ummm... that's a loaded term, zachariah, and I don't think you'll find any serious brain-development researchers using it in this context. As to why it's a loaded term: it leads to questions like:

• Just how is the human brain "intended" to work?
• Just who, or what, "intended" it? ("Intention" is an attribute of a sentient being.)
• How do you know that the brain of an autistic person was not "intended" (by whomever/whatever) to work in exactly the way it is?

I think "damage" is a term better reserved for situations where something did once work in a specific way, but has been altered (by disease or trauma) so that it no longer works in that way. This is how the term "brain damage" is usually used.

If a brain never developed in a particular way in the first place... is it damaged? I'd say "no". Compared to typical development, it may be different (slightly or greatly), or incomplete (again, slightly or greatly), or it may have capabilities that a typical brain does not (again, slightly or greatly). It may share all of these attributes... a fair percentage of people who have deficits in some areas, have greater capabilities in others (the "savant" phenomenon being an extreme example).

Consider people with synesthesia, where seeing a particular color also triggers the sensation of hearing a specific sound (or vice versa, or etc. with other senses). Not common, but not terribly rare. Are the brains of people with synesthesia "damaged" because they're not working "as intended" (the way most peoples' do)? Is your brain "damaged" (and is mine?) because our brains don't work this way, and human brains were in general "intended" to have this sort of cross-sensory enhancement? In either case, who "intended" what's supposed to be, and how do you (or I) know this?

[jwhouk]

Let's not forget, people, that we're dealing with a non-human entity with Atsali. Rules about human brain function don't fly (pays pun jar) with Sirens.

[Thor]

I simply consider all brains that do not function the same way mine does as being damaged. It saves a lot of fretting and analysis.

[Sgt. Howard]

"Normal" brain function....? What little I have seen of 'normal' brain function is scary. Here we are wondering about the criteria of what involves 'damaged' vs. 'differently wired' brain function, yet I tell you truthfully- the majority of absolutely repressive, stupid and downright dangerous laws have been written and passed by 'normal' minds. The majority of asinine, bigoted and totally false schoolbooks were written by 'normal' minds. Most of the product warnings that leave you scratching your head in bewilderment are the direct result of actions taken by 'normal' minds.
An IQ of 100 means this; half the population is LESS MENTALLY FUNCTIONAL than you!.. and they (for the most part) are considered to have 'normal' minds!

Thank GOD I am not normal!

By medical definition, genius is a form of mental disease... think about it.

[Opus the Poet]

Has anyone noticed that Atsali's bikini is getting progressively smaller and smaller as this arc progresses? At the start ( http://wapsisquare.com/comic/all-aboard/ ) it went more or less comfortably under the curve of her breast to her rib cage, but today's is only slightly larger than a nipple cover. The breasts themselves do not seem to be getting any bigger, so the bikini top must be shrinking, starting with this strip ( http://wapsisquare.com/comic/you-inviting-me/ ). Any bets on which of the paras involved might be to blame? (Besides Pablo, that is) Jin was the one who selected that suit.

[Sgt. Howard]

Has anyone noticed that Atsali's bikini is getting progressively smaller and smaller as this arc progresses? At the start ( http://wapsisquare.com/comic/all-aboard/ ) it went more or less comfortably under the curve of her breast to her rib cage, but today's is only slightly larger than a nipple cover. The breasts themselves do not seem to be getting any bigger, so the bikini top must be shrinking, starting with this strip ( http://wapsisquare.com/comic/you-inviting-me/ ). Any bets on which of the paras involved might be to blame? (Besides Pablo, that is) Jin was the one who selected that suit.

I am thinking that my pants are made of the same stuff...

[zachariah]

They all stem from malfunctions in the various brain systems for recognizing, or interpreting, these visual signals in the brain. Either in seeing them, or decoding them. No matter what it stems from something is incomplete, or not working, in the brain. That is brain damage. A damaged system is one that has faults, or problems that prevent it operating in the intended way.

Ummm... that's a loaded term, zachariah, and I don't think you'll find any serious brain-development researchers using it in this context. As to why it's a loaded term: it leads to questions like:

• Just how is the human brain "intended" to work?
• Just who, or what, "intended" it? ("Intention" is an attribute of a sentient being.)
• How do you know that the brain of an autistic person was not "intended" (by whomever/whatever) to work in exactly the way it is?

I think "damage" is a term better reserved for situations where something did once work in a specific way, but has been altered (by disease or trauma) so that it no longer works in that way. This is how the term "brain damage" is usually used.

If a brain never developed in a particular way in the first place... is it damaged? I'd say "no". Compared to typical development, it may be different (slightly or greatly), or incomplete (again, slightly or greatly), or it may have capabilities that a typical brain does not (again, slightly or greatly). It may share all of these attributes... a fair percentage of people who have deficits in some areas, have greater capabilities in others (the "savant" phenomenon being an extreme example).

Consider people with synesthesia, where seeing a particular color also triggers the sensation of hearing a specific sound (or vice versa, or etc. with other senses). Not common, but not terribly rare. Are the brains of people with synesthesia "damaged" because they're not working "as intended" (the way most peoples' do)? Is your brain "damaged" (and is mine?) because our brains don't work this way, and human brains were in general "intended" to have this sort of cross-sensory enhancement? In either case, who "intended" what's supposed to be, and how do you (or I) know this?

I will change the intended to fully functional. You're right intended implies someone designed it which is a question we can't answer. Fully functional can be argued with as well as no one has a fully functional brain, we only use 10% or so. that means we all are not fully functional.

As to correct function the only measure we have is the majority. If 90% of brains operate that way it is the standard measure. While we all vary in different ways our basic skill set, or functions, are consistent. If one part of the circuitry is not functional due ti hardware, or software, then it is damaged. But it cannot be repaired as easily as a computer.

As to cross sensory, and cross other things you are right. The brain has the ability to reroute around damaged areas with sufficient training, or re-patterning. But that ability comes into play when conditions exist that prevent the usual pathways being used. Example is a brain injury causes memory loss. With time the memory can be recovered. Speech can be relearned if lost. Same with hearing, smell, and other functions of the brain. But if the damage, or malfunction, is too great it cannot. Some beings are born with the circuitry out of whack and non-functional circuits. Some of these are very subtle and difficult to identify, others are not. But if the sensory rerouting is random, and beyond personal control then the circuits are NOT functioning correctly.

[zachariah]

"Normal" brain function....? What little I have seen of 'normal' brain function is scary. Here we are wondering about the criteria of what involves 'damaged' vs. 'differently wired' brain function, yet I tell you truthfully- the majority of absolutely repressive, stupid and downright dangerous laws have been written and passed by 'normal' minds. The majority of asinine, bigoted and totally false schoolbooks were written by 'normal' minds. Most of the product warnings that leave you scratching your head in bewilderment are the direct result of actions taken by 'normal' minds.
An IQ of 100 means this; half the population is LESS MENTALLY FUNCTIONAL than you!.. and they (for the most part) are considered to have 'normal' minds!

Thank GOD I am not normal!

By medical definition, genius is a form of mental disease... think about it.

You are confusing two different meanings of the word. Normal for machines or organisms:is the medium standard by with an organism functions. Normal for personalities: An ill defined standard by which one persons behavior, or thought patterns, are compared to a social group as a whole. To the second meaning there is no such things as normal except as a perceived opinion of a social group and is meaningless outside of that group. Often it is meaningless inside the group as well but they refuse to admit it.

Whether to be normal or not depends on the consequences to the individual by being to far away from the groups standard of normal. The punishment ranges from being ignored, to shunning, to exile, to being burned at the stake. Luckily current society has moved away from witch burning. But that doesn't mean we will always stay here either does it.

[AmriloJim]

Opus, the shrinkage started when 'Sali got into the pool... fabric that shrinks when it gets wet?

[TazManiac]

I simply consider all brains that do not function the same way mine does as being damaged. It saves a lot of fretting and analysis.

On this particular point, you have my Proxy...

Opus, the shrinkage started when 'Sali got into the pool... fabric that shrinks when it gets wet?

"Here, wear this bikini; 'it's made of Wool..."