Imagine That 2015-05-29

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Akeche
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Akeche » Fri May 29, 2015 10:58 am

Julie wrote:
Akeche wrote:A tad preachy, but I find this more favorable than some of the offered options people thought up. Still, Don't Shoot the Messenger and all that.

I'd argue with her on that last comment in the first panel, of course, but that's mainly because of where they're located. We discussed that in the other thread, we're prudes in the US.
But she is voicing the increasingly popular perspective of folks in the US. Prudish habits are being used as excuses for body shaming and the early sexualization (is that a word?) of teenagers...and that's not okay.
Just to add onto what Bathorys said, we have to keep in mind that Atsali's assets are most certainly a point of sexualization. People who like girls, most of the time, also like boobs. I mean hell Nadette's eyes wandered all the damn time. Sometimes we seem to forget that Paul gave the at the time fourteen year old(or did she just turn fifteen?) teenager a pair of knockers which dwarfed Monica's, and also made her tall and leggy. There's a hint of sexualization inherently in her character design, only reinforced by the pinups drawn of her and sold by Paul on eBay.

I know that you yourself didn't outright say it, but some people here seem to think it's horrible that people might find the bird-brain to be "hot" when her design is meant to be appealing in that way.

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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by meisdadoo » Fri May 29, 2015 11:04 am

Once again I have to say...did not see that one coming. Which is why I love this strip, lots of sudden twists and turns that are not at all predictable.

But today is Friday and there is still no telling where all this is going. . .

As far as jin is concerned (or Paul for that matter) All I can say is: Do you think (s)he plans it all out, or just makes it up as (s)he goes along?

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Akeche
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Akeche » Fri May 29, 2015 11:10 am

meisdadoo wrote:Once again I have to say...did not see that one coming. Which is why I love this strip, lots of sudden twists and turns that are not at all predictable.

But today is Friday and there is still no telling where all this is going. . .

As far as jin is concerned (or Paul for that matter) All I can say is: Do you think (s)he plans it all out, or just makes it up as (s)he goes along?

Little from column A, a bit from column B.

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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Opus the Poet » Fri May 29, 2015 11:12 am

Dave wrote:
Atomic wrote:
Opus the Poet wrote:ETA: I have some experience dealing with being a character in a fictional universe. Now about that rewrite I asked for, now that the one pound tumor is removed from my neck that pathology report is going to be all fat and blood vessels, right. And no more trucks hitting me, that shit's getting repetitive, especially after the third one.
Perhaps being a sales rep for Acme Corporation does not suit you!
It's not being a sales rep that's a problem. It's being a customer.
Hell I'm not even a customer, I just want their delivery trucks to not hit me. :twisted: :ugeek: Seriously, one truck hitting me and getting totaled out is funny in retrospect, especially because I only had minor scrapes and bruises from getting thrown across the intersection. The second truck in the same intersection with very similar scrapes and bruises and the truck similarly totaled out was hilarious after it quit hurting. The third truck more than 30 years later, not so funny :evil:
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Opus the Poet » Fri May 29, 2015 11:15 am

Akeche wrote:Just to add onto what Bathorys said, we have to keep in mind that Atsali's assets are most certainly a point of sexualization. People who like girls, most of the time, also like boobs. I mean hell Nadette's eyes wandered all the damn time. Sometimes we seem to forget that Paul gave the at the time fourteen year old(or did she just turn fifteen?) teenager a pair of knockers which dwarfed Monica's, and also made her tall and leggy. There's a hint of sexualization inherently in her character design, only reinforced by the pinups drawn of her and sold by Paul on eBay.

I know that you yourself didn't outright say it, but some people here seem to think it's horrible that people might find the bird-brain to be "hot" when her design is meant to be appealing in that way.
Or to quote a certain Mrs. Rabbit, "I'm not a Bad Girl, I'm just drawn that way."
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Fri May 29, 2015 11:21 am

T'Renn wrote:
KnightDelight wrote:I don't know ... but should not Poseidon be one of those elder gods that everyone is trying to keep out?
I've been assuming that the Old Gods being kept out are more on the order of the Lovecraftian type. Not those specifically, but definitely the hugely inhuman and insanity-inducing. Poseidon would be more on the power level of beings like the Titans, who are demonstrably still allowed, unless too ill-behaved.
I assumed that Poseidon is one of the "immortal politicians" (like Kukulcan) that Jin used to scam during the loops.
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Fri May 29, 2015 11:24 am

kingklash wrote:If it wasn't for a certain Tuna spurring the girls into sending an envoy, we wouldn't have been witness to this rather pleasing moment.
Right - we'd have seen a different strand of Jin's contingency skein.
Proof Positive the world is not flat: If it were, cats would have pushed everything off the edge by now.

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Julie
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Julie » Fri May 29, 2015 11:40 am

Bathorys Daughter wrote:But what IS "early?" I mean really. When people were lucky to make it to 30, marriage and breeding often started at 12 or 13. It had to. Those rites of passage, like bat mitzvah happen at 12 and 13 for a reason. The reason being that those were the ages of marriage eligibility way back when. The biology has not changed, it's only societies attitudes that have. Though in some places early teens is still the norm. Like it or not, girls are sexual creatures, and breedable even before teen years start. We simply allow them to be kids much longer nowadays. Anyway, my point is that these girls are only "kids" because we deem them to be so. Nature and biology say otherwise but we ignore it. Or we try to ignore it. It's a mistake to say these girls are too young to be "sexualized." They may act like giddy girls but, if they have menstruated, they are women. We just let them continue to be children. It's really just a game we play as a society. Unfortunately it messes with their minds quite a bit and makes them unsure of their place in the world. They have these very adult feelings and thoughts yet are treated as children. I know it messed with my mind. <steps off soapbox>
I understand that you are approaching this from a strictly biological standpoint, but that's not the whole of the picture anymore. The ability to procreate does not constitute an ability to handle the emotional and psychological weight of being "an adult." That's a large part of why society implemented the concept of ages that constitute being a "minor" and therefore not fully an adult. The successful navigation of puberty is no longer all it takes to be considered an adult, so biology cannot be the only perspective on this issue. While you may have felt that being treated as a child while feeling things as a woman "messed with your mind" I can say from my own experience that being felt up by guys just because I had an impressive rack that implied I was "ready for it" was a mindfuck that it took me years to deal with. I was still trying to recover from being sexualized without my consent or preparation in my mid-20s when I first started dating my husband. Having the physiology of a sexual being does not make you a sexual being, nor does it make you an adult. It makes you adult shaped.

The teenage years are incredibly awkward and uncomfortable for everyone because of the complex physiological and emotional changes that are taking place, but they are the in-between stage as we move from being children to being adult. Menstruation (which started for me when I was 11 and sure as heck not as breast-acular as I am now) is not the trigger for adulthood, nor is it the trigger for when a person should be considered sexual...at least not in most modern cultures. That said, even a fully adult female shouldn't be demonized for wearing a bikini just because she's curvy and "boobs trigger sexual thoughts." That's the other person's problem...not hers.
Akeche wrote:Just to add onto what Bathorys said, we have to keep in mind that Atsali's assets are most certainly a point of sexualization. People who like girls, most of the time, also like boobs. I mean hell Nadette's eyes wandered all the damn time. Sometimes we seem to forget that Paul gave the at the time fourteen year old(or did she just turn fifteen?) teenager a pair of knockers which dwarfed Monica's, and also made her tall and leggy. There's a hint of sexualization inherently in her character design, only reinforced by the pinups drawn of her and sold by Paul on eBay.

I know that you yourself didn't outright say it, but some people here seem to think it's horrible that people might find the bird-brain to be "hot" when her design is meant to be appealing in that way.
Again, a person who has curves is not inherently sexual. They may be viewed that way by others, but that's part of the problem...because they did not invite such attention...they were just existing and someone decided that they were "sexy." I would like to point out that I don't think that there's a problem with people finding certain people or body types attractive (I actually try to refrain from judging the folks who comment on Atsali's appearance with any language beyond "cute" because I know they probably aren't thinking about her age). It's just not an opinion that they need to force on others...especially when the recipient of that attention is a minor. And if I recall correctly, Paul actually made Atsali look this way not to make her sexually appealing, but to remind people that looking sexually appealing is often outside of the control of the individual...and that it's not fair to sexualize someone based on appearance alone. Reactions like that are part of why I have NEVER owned a bikini...and why the mere thought of wearing a normal swimsuit in public is enough to make me swear off swimming forever. Breasts don't mean I deserve to be oggled...and it would be lovely if girls like Atsali could grow up without my neuroses and insecurities.
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Fri May 29, 2015 11:42 am

Akeche wrote:Just to add onto what Bathorys said, we have to keep in mind that Atsali's assets are most certainly a point of sexualization. People who like girls, most of the time, also like boobs. I mean hell Nadette's eyes wandered all the damn time. Sometimes we seem to forget that Paul gave the at the time fourteen year old(or did she just turn fifteen?) teenager a pair of knockers which dwarfed Monica's, and also made her tall and leggy. There's a hint of sexualization inherently in her character design, only reinforced by the pinups drawn of her and sold by Paul on eBay.

I know that you yourself didn't outright say it, but some people here seem to think it's horrible that people might find the bird-brain to be "hot" when her design is meant to be appealing in that way.
A discussion between Ash and Emily in Misfile recently just came to mind.

To set the scene (for those who don't follow/are unaware of Misfile) Ash (short red hair - if it were in colour) and Emily (longer hair) were affected by a slacker angel's misfiling of papers in the Celestial Filing Depot - Emily lost two years of her life {and early acceptance to Harvard} and Ash lost something near and dear to him and gained boobs. To the rest of the world, it's always been that way. Since the Misfile, they've become friends, and now Very Close Friends {despite Emily insisting she's 100% straight}. It's Emily's {second} eighteenth birthday, and Ash has taken her to a restaurant that specialises in fondue.

Image

Image

BTW - this bonus page (possibly NSFW though no actual Naughty Bits are shown) appeared between those two...
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DinkyInky
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by DinkyInky » Fri May 29, 2015 11:43 am

Yeah, and I knew girls when I was in third grade that had those attributes already.

Hell, my best friend since nine "sis" daughters were having issues with it...and they were eight and nine, and nearly as tall as me. Big brother also hit puberty way too early. With things like rBGH/rBST being used in dairy kids consume(yeah, I know they say no studies prove it, but doing research on family histories and having zero early bloomers on either family side going back about ten or so generations, and the only difference was the treated dairy...you do the math.), it's become the norm.

I was flat chested until my mid twenties due to not knowing anything about choosing a bra, but hit puberty in my single digits. In less than a year after learning all about fittings, I went from piddly nothing to a C, and after I had my son at 31 almost seven years later, I exploded into an F.
I had numerous women tell me once I dried up they'd shrink back down, but hah...no.

I'm 5'3" and stacked like a Texas Poker deck, and they're going nowhere(I work out and wear proper gear, so no, gravity won't get them either).

Point is, body shaming and body discrimination is still cruel, and needs to be stopped, end story.

I got bullied for being prettier and skinnier(I had Jet's metabolism) than most of them[so of course they told me I was fat and ugly], Korean, Polish, smart, nerdy, geeky, flat chested, short, Catholic, loose, pretty much everything. I went through HELL, and because of that I have an extremely low tolerance for bullies. Heaven forbid the parents of the child that bullies my son and the kids that he hangs out with be bullies...they rather HATE me, because I'm like Jin, and will find a sneaky way to assist in the resolution of the issue.

There's nothing wrong with seeing beauty in a young girl like her, but again, people treating them like they are the sum of their design and parts is inherently the big problem.
I see very beautiful girls for what they are, beautiful girls. Same for young men. That I could be their Mother(and not look like I'm old enough to), is irrelevant. My moral compass and aesthetics won't let me see into more than just their beauty. Paul is showcasing a very real problem in society today, and doing so in an entertaining manner. She's lucky to be making friends that aren't just there for the perks. Not many of us do.
Yanno how some people have Angels/Devils for a conscience? I have a Dark Elf ShadowKnight and a Half Elf Ranger for mine. The really bad part is when they agree on something.

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Akeche
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Akeche » Fri May 29, 2015 12:05 pm

I suppose it might just be my inherent cynicism but... While I'm sure Paul chose to make Atsali the way she is now for other reasons too, I have no doubt that a big one was so he'd be able to draw plenty of pinups that would sell like hot cakes. Used to be that Monica was the main focus there, but with her being put on the sidelines that's been moved to the young birdy. Really I'd not blame him in any way if that was the case, considering each pinup goes for $60-$100.

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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Tenjen » Fri May 29, 2015 12:09 pm

Alright, see this thing some of the posters are talking about "inherent sexuality". that isnt a thing. Also supposedly that people dont have a choice either way and some serious rubbish about menstruation that isnt even biologically accurate, read a frikkin book, watch a documentary if you need to, wiki it!. Thats something you're applying to someone.

And its absolute shit. for. them. The vast majority of people dislike being seen that way because it gets in the way of their entire lives. they cant be taken seriously at whatever venue (work, life, relaxation, being in public, sports, being wiht friends, making friends, hobbies, breathing air) because of the views you are spouting.

You are supporting views that actively reduce a whole individual to the perception of their flesh and it hurts them, it hurts them HORRIBLY.

other people have already brought up a number of points. but what matters most, what REALLY COUNTS IS.

Your views ruin these peoples lives. why would you want that? why would you support such a thing? How can you support such a perception that gets people hurt so terribly? A perception that reduces them as people? that gets them raped? Murdered? Reduces their quality of life? Makes them feel terrible or hinders them in any life activity they seek out?

Why should you getting your jollies "just cause" cost all these peoples peace of goddamn mind for the entirety of their lives? is this view really worth the misery and pain it causes?

They are not inherently sexual, they are inherently and primarily PEOPLE.
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by illiad » Fri May 29, 2015 12:10 pm

DinkyInky: yep, there is a famous presenter here..
(yeesh, Tenjen, where did YOU grow up??? :roll: - most 'disadvantaged ' people get good training from their family in various self-defence.. (mental and physical) )
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Akeche
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Akeche » Fri May 29, 2015 12:17 pm

Yeah that's a little bit of an extreme reaction if I'm perfectly honest. Saying "I like boobs, and other people like boobs too" Is a far cry from what you're talking about. I mean it's almost like saying that just finding someone attractive is some kind of crime.

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illiad
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by illiad » Fri May 29, 2015 12:20 pm

as I was saying, famous presenter... she is a 'pretty girl' looker, but is actually more of a 'Bud' character, a bit rough...and pregnancy had the same effect as DinkyInky :) she does a comedy show wich she loves, and all the pregnancy jokes!! :D :D

As for poor Atsali, I dont think ANY RL teen had 'firm KK' thrust upon them... they do force a quick growing up though... have a look for the song 'guy named sue' for the male version!! :D :D
Last edited by illiad on Fri May 29, 2015 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Akeche
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Akeche » Fri May 29, 2015 12:23 pm

On another topic though still related to the comic, what happened to Paul's tumblr page?

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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by tophoo » Fri May 29, 2015 12:27 pm

Tenjen wrote:Alright, see this thing some of the posters are talking about "inherent sexuality". that isnt a thing. Also supposedly that people dont have a choice either way and some serious rubbish about menstruation that isnt even biologically accurate, read a frikkin book, watch a documentary if you need to, wiki it!. Thats something you're applying to someone.

And its absolute shit. for. them. The vast majority of people dislike being seen that way because it gets in the way of their entire lives. they cant be taken seriously at whatever venue (work, life, relaxation, being in public, sports, being wiht friends, making friends, hobbies, breathing air) because of the views you are spouting.

You are supporting views that actively reduce a whole individual to the perception of their flesh and it hurts them, it hurts them HORRIBLY.

other people have already brought up a number of points. but what matters most, what REALLY COUNTS IS.

Your views ruin these peoples lives. why would you want that? why would you support such a thing? How can you support such a perception that gets people hurt so terribly? A perception that reduces them as people? that gets them raped? Murdered? Reduces their quality of life? Makes them feel terrible or hinders them in any life activity they seek out?

Why should you getting your jollies "just cause" cost all these peoples peace of goddamn mind for the entirety of their lives? is this view really worth the misery and pain it causes?

They are not inherently sexual, they are inherently and primarily PEOPLE.
Thanks- we get it. You've a bee in your bonnet, a chip on your shoulder, a burr under your saddle.
But just because people may be incorrect, ill-informed or just plain wrong-headed, where the hell do you get off criminalizing them?

Education works better than pointing fingers, and telling people that they bad, bad human beings, and should be ashamed that they are breathing.
Y'know, I've got a nice, concise, little avatar pic that I've been using for ten damned years, and this is the first place I've ever tried to use it that said it was too big.
Screw it- I'm stayin' generic.

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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Akeche » Fri May 29, 2015 12:35 pm

illiad wrote:as I was saying, famous presenter... she is a 'pretty girl' looker, but is actually more of a 'Bud' character, a bit rough...and pregnancy had the same effect as DinkyInky :) she does a comedy show wich she loves, and all the pregnancy jokes!! :D :D

As for poor Atsali, I dont think ANY RL teen had 'firm KK' thrust upon them... they do force a quick growing up though... have a look for the song 'guy named sue' for the male version!! :D :D
You have excellent taste in music.

But yeah Atsali's a really weird case. Y'know with the whole... literally growing up physically overnight thing, and the sheer size of her bust. Blondie is an extremely lucky girl to have sprouted upward so far, cause if she'd stayed about her original height. Whoof, and she thinks she has back problems right now.

The only reason I brought up the pinups was because, well... If one frequents tumblr enough, they'll see several people judging Paul because of that. Seeing him as a hypocrite.

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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by Julie » Fri May 29, 2015 12:40 pm

Akeche wrote:I suppose it might just be my inherent cynicism but... While I'm sure Paul chose to make Atsali the way she is now for other reasons too, I have no doubt that a big one was so he'd be able to draw plenty of pinups that would sell like hot cakes. Used to be that Monica was the main focus there, but with her being put on the sidelines that's been moved to the young birdy. Really I'd not blame him in any way if that was the case, considering each pinup goes for $60-$100.
Actually, I think Paul designed her the way he did for the story he was trying to tell. I could be wrong, but he does go out of his way to not present Atsali in an overtly sexual manner for her pin-ups (like he's done for Castela) primarily because she is a child...and if people view her sexually, he's called them out for it. I could be wrong...but that is what I've seen come from him about this, so I'm inclined to think he wasn't hoping that people would get their rocks off at his portrayal of an under-aged girl with massive breasts and therefore spend gobs of money on his drawings.
Akeche wrote:Yeah that's a little bit of an extreme reaction if I'm perfectly honest. Saying "I like boobs, and other people like boobs too" Is a far cry from what you're talking about. I mean it's almost like saying that just finding someone attractive is some kind of crime.
No...it's saying that treating people differently than other due to the hand that nature and genetics played them is wrong. People are people. Someone can find another person attractive all they want, but they don't have the right to force their opinions on the individual or others...What you think is sexy doesn't mean that it IS sexy. It's sexy to you. A girl with large breasts in a bikini isn't trying to be provocative. She's just being...no matter what people think about her looks.
illiad wrote:(yeesh, Tenjen, where did YOU grow up??? :roll: - most 'disadvantaged ' people get good training from their family in various self-defence.. (mental and physical) )
I'm glad there are apparently people out there who get "training" from their families to handle this kind of thing. The "training" I got? It's my fault if I make a man horny and I should go out of my way to take up as little space as possible so I don't accidentally touch a man...and I shouldn't speak up about when I've been violated because I did something to provoke it...and I'll be mocked by my peers for it...and the people in authority won't even flinch or ask questions about it (much less take corrective action)...so pretend it never happened and dress as frumpy as you can unless you really do want the attention...and then you're a slut for wanting it, so you need to accept that label and act the part. Is that the kind of self-defense training you're thinking that friends and family should be giving? Yes, Tenjen reacted strongly, but that's because this is a real subject that causes people real pain...and it's really wrong. <end rant>
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illiad
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Re: Imagine That 2015-05-29

Post by illiad » Fri May 29, 2015 12:42 pm

hey, I have known a few 'large' women, and they do have a 'handle' on the 'effect' of their size... I have to constantly remind my female friends that 'poor men' are *slaves* to their hormones, they cannot help it..

if you want to stop them, try actually *offering* ( while having a fist ready to get them in a sensitive spot...) LOLOL... most would either faint or be frightened away! I am a scot, so a lot stronger - my sister laughs at the weak southerners!!
Last edited by illiad on Fri May 29, 2015 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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