Time To Think 2014-03-19

[Opus the Poet]

Point to Atsali!

[shadowinthelight]

I'm starting to get mental images of the trouble these two could get into if Jin says yes. MIB could have their hands full.

[Dave]

Well, when she puts it that way ...

... it does seem as if Atsali has just as much emotional reason to feel guilty and conflicted as Jin does, but has managed it in 15 years of lifetime rather than 80,000 or so.

One wonders, who will end up teaching whom?

Could work both ways, I suppose, and end up being a healing experience for both of them.

[Atomic]

(Nightmare Fuel)^2

Yeah -- they both need to talk. Now they've each met somebody else who's got a clue.

[meisdadoo]

I will see your "murder and torture of children" and raise you "millions of voices crying out and suddenly being silenced--by me"

Now that we have that on table. . .

WTH, Atsali was more disturbed by the sudden onset of puberty, than silencing an entire civilization stuck in limbo. . . .uber creepy.

[jeffepp]

Bawling hug in 3-2-1

[My2Cents]

To paraphrase from Dr. Who

Jin: Fear me, I have killed hundreds of people.
Atsali: Fear me, I killed all of them.

Jin thinks the all the people she killed over the cycles makes her evil/bad, but she has just been topped by a teenager!

[AmriloJim]

Well, when she puts it that way ...

Well, so much for using that cliche....

[TazManiac]

That feeling in your tummy, like lead based nioki...

[Yamara]

See, Jin, no real pressure; the program is entirely voluntary.

Just like my doing the "Called-it Dance" way way in the background behind you? Totally voluntary on my part.

I will see your "murder and torture of children" and raise you "millions of voices crying out and suddenly being silenced--by me"

Now that we have that on table. . .

WTH, Atsali was more disturbed by the sudden onset of puberty, than silencing an entire civilization stuck in limbo. . . .uber creepy.

Atsali was more visibly disturbed by believing Kath was dead. The death of a single new friend is parsable. Puberty is natural even among the preternatural.

Having the mad distillation of ancient humanity poured into your mind with the easiest point of reference being the mass infanticide committed by the secret hate-being you narrowly tricked into a small box, is a tiny bit different. Just the thickness of skin.

There really aren't words for it.

And when you can't talk about something like that, who knows how you'll lash out.

[jwhouk]

Jin has that "knock me over with a feather" look.

They obviously have a lot more in common than either of them would like to admit. The only difference is that Bia didn't show up in Atsali's scenario.

Actually, as I think about it, Atsali had one thing going for her that Jin didn't have until just recently: family.

[Yamara]

They obviously have a lot more in common than either of them would like to admit. The only difference is that Bia didn't show up in Atsali's scenario.

I think you'll find Bia all over Atsali's scenario, at least the part we've seen.

Tina's not the first to have goatshead eyes.

[jwhouk]

Oh. Yeah, you're right.

I'm starting to think that "Wapsinicon" is really Lakota for "all Bia's fault."

[Sphinx-Napped]

astial just handed jin her a i can top that auntie.

what do you have other then killing and torture people..?

umm I've killed a entire race...

point to astial

[Aleister Crow]

"I try to tell myself that I saved them, and finally gave them peace."

Anyone getting the feeling this is followed by an unspoken "I wish I could believe it"?

[zachariah]

Sali appears quiet a bit more emotionally mature than she used to be. But she is wrong about what is happened. Yes she did get the entire thing down loaded into her head. It was an accident she ended up with them and they took advantage of the accident to enter her head to escape. As the passed through her and escaped into death, at last released from confinement and insanity. Sali cannot blame herself for this. She did not cause it. She did not send them to death. They made the choice and used her to accomplish it. Sounds like Sali really does not understand what happened and why. So a mentor to help her see she did not do it and was instead a victim of the escaping, insane, souls.

[Catawampus]

One wonders, who will end up teaching whom?

Trying to teach something to others is often an effective way of really learning the thing yourself.

WTH, Atsali was more disturbed by the sudden onset of puberty, than silencing an entire civilization stuck in limbo. . . .uber creepy.

People can easily react to relatively small upsets and tragedies. Major traumatic calamities, on the other hand, will often totally overwhelm a person and leave them not knowing how to react. They'll end up not showing much apparent reaction at all at the time, because they put the problem aside temporarily. Later on (perhaps much later), though, they may have a complete breakdown seemingly out of nowhere, or they'll start showing some subtle personality shift, or some other problems may show up.

Years ago a friend of mine was partially crippled by a malfunctioning RPG hitting him in the stomach. His reaction to it was basically, "Huh. Well. How about that?", and he went on with his life as best as he was able under the circumstances. He never acted upset about it, or really reacted to it at all. And then a few months ago he killed himself because of it. Another guy I knew had unofficially adopted an orphan kid; when the kid was killed in a random artillery attack, the guy barely reacted at all. A couple of months later, though, the minor inconvenience of his shovel handle cracking caused him to have a total breakdown due to pent-up emotion finally breaking loose. Just because somebody shows no major reaction doesn't mean that they aren't affected.

So it is kinda creepy, because we don't know how Atsali is going to finally react to everything. Which is why it will be a good thing to have somebody else there to help her through it all.

[Dave]

atsali just handed jin her a i can top that auntie.

what do you have other then killing and torture people..?

umm I've killed a entire race...

point to atsali

And, for our next guest, let's have a warm welcome for Kevin Uxbridge, just back from his self-imposed exile on Rana IV!

Sali appears quiet a bit more emotionally mature than she used to be. But she is wrong about what is happened. Yes she did get the entire thing down loaded into her head. It was an accident she ended up with them and they took advantage of the accident to enter her head to escape. As the passed through her and escaped into death, at last released from confinement and insanity. Sali cannot blame herself for this. She did not cause it. She did not send them to death. They made the choice and used her to accomplish it. Sounds like Sali really does not understand what happened and why. So a mentor to help her see she did not do it and was instead a victim of the escaping, insane, souls.

I don't think it's quite that simple and easy, on a couple of levels.

An intellectual understanding that "it was an accident" is very different from an emotional "being at peace" about a terrible trauma. Sometimes these two things seem to have almost nothing to do with one another. They must be achieved separately, through different processes... and achieving emotional peace often involves a process of grieving.

I'm not sure whether Atsali has yet had a chance to mourn for those who were saved/freed/lost/destroyed through her actions. If not, then she'll probably need to.

Secondly... saying that it was "just an accident" may not get Atsali off of her own hook. The whole Big Adventure was full of examples of how Atsali tends to act impulsively, throwing herself into new situations without thinking out the possible consequences for herself and others. If she had acted just a bit more cautiously in the Mapimi cave, and not stuck her hand into an orifice where angels fear to tread, she wouldn't have gotten zapped by the Big Download at all... and there might have been another way of dealing with the trapped Ethetians which might even have saved a few by restoring them to life and sanity. Her own tendency towards impulsive, headlong actions was one of the prime triggers of all that occurred.

I suspect that Atsali will consider this possibility at some point, if it hasn't already occurred to her. What happened, happened at least in part due to her own choices, and so she is morally responsible to some extent for the Ethetians' demise. ("responsible" isn't the same thing as "guilty", of course)

[KnightDelight]

As Euryale would say "Way-ellll shut mah mouth"

WTH, Atsali was more disturbed by the sudden onset of puberty, than silencing an entire civilization stuck in limbo. . . .uber creepy.

That happened to them. Puberty happened to HER!

Sali appears quiet a bit more emotionally mature than she used to be. But she is wrong about what is happened. Yes she did get the entire thing down loaded into her head. It was an accident she ended up with them and they took advantage of the accident to enter her head to escape. As the passed through her and escaped into death, at last released from confinement and insanity. Sali cannot blame herself for this. She did not cause it. She did not send them to death. They made the choice and used her to accomplish it. Sounds like Sali really does not understand what happened and why. So a mentor to help her see she did not do it and was instead a victim of the escaping, insane, souls.

Yes, they were released. I doubt they were looking to die in their escape though. More likely looking to get back into the world. Still, who knows if they were healed of their insanity. Does death do that or are you still insane afterwards? Hopefully the realm of the dead, whatever it is in the Wapsiverse, is better equipped to handle hundreds of thousands of insane souls all at once (maybe they get a memory wipe). We certainly couldn't had they been reconstituted.

[Radical_Knight]

Jin has that "knock me over with a feather" look.

They obviously have a lot more in common than either of them would like to admit. The only difference is that Bia didn't show up in Atsali's scenario.

Actually, as I think about it, Atsali had one thing going for her that Jin didn't have until just recently: family.

I was originally thinking ..."I have never seen an effective expression for Gobsmacked until now".