Something is Up 2014-02-04

[jwhouk]

I think it's more the original prophecy from Sybil:

"The Land of the Crescent will turn to glass, but you (Bia) would have a descendant who will set the powers right."

[Platonix]

Hasn't Shelly already done that? If not through her role in destroying the Calender Machine, then through her work in creating the new vimana cell to restore Jin's sanity?

[DilyV]

Evil is rational, and Bia has a plan. It's highly unlikely that her visit to Tina was altruism for it's own sake, so what's she up to? What plan of hers would require use of someone with Tina's insight?

Bia doesn't strike me as a meddler -- she's out for a prize of some kind. What would constitute a victory for her? Something beyond simple vengeance, I'd expect.

The Cylons had a plan too and we see how well that all turned out... (yeah, sue me I'm a BSG geek)

[donoho]

Bia aside...

Calm, confident, sagely Monica is pretty damn cool.

[Julie]

Well said M...well said. I'm with everyone else on this. While Bia may not be evil or intending evil, that doesn't mean her plans will lead to good results. Grand plans are just the beginnings of grand mistakes.

Phix and Shelly both would want to know that Bia is stirring the pot again with Tina as the focus of whatever her plan might be... which could be enough to enrage Phix all over again.

Quoted for truth. I'd be interested to see what Phix thinks about Bia mucking around with Tina given that she's kind of Tina's "watchdog" (even if she's elected not to pay too close attention based on how well Tina's been doing on her own)...and given her own personal history with the Titan.

[Aed]

I suspect that prophecy still plays a big motivation in Bia's actions. The question is, does anyone truly understand what the Sibyl was saying will happen?

And what part do five winged beings play in it (assuming that's the same prophecy)?

Five winged beings- Tina, Phix, Shelly, Atsali, and... ?

Lilly may be the fifth winged being that we know of but I'm not certain that we know much about that particular prophecy.

[Dave]

I suspect that prophecy still plays a big motivation in Bia's actions. The question is, does anyone truly understand what the Sibyl was saying will happen?

And what part do five winged beings play in it (assuming that's the same prophecy)?

Five winged beings- Tina, Phix, Shelly, Atsali, and... ?

I think it's more the original prophecy from Sybil:

"The Land of the Crescent will turn to glass, but you (Bia) would have a descendant who will set the powers right."

You may very well both be right. I think the presence of the prophecy (or prophecies) is crucial here, for very non-trivial reasons.

It all has to do with Time.

Prophecy is (as one SF author pointed out) a form of time travel or time-bending. I'm not talking about predictions or guesses here, but true prophecy. Such a prophecy of What Must Be, involves information traveling backwards in time, from the event itself back to the day when the prophetic vision was "seen".

This gets really tricky in a universe such as Wapsi Square, because we've seen that Wapsi time isn't a fixed progression. Time isn't linear, and history can be changed. The Calendar Machine bent/reset time repeatedly, wiping out more than two dozen timelines. In the Time Forest dimension, the timeline flows backwards from mainline Wapsi time, wasn't subject to the Calendar Machine bending, and may even have warped back into a circle at the moment Shelly entered/exited. The demons are quantum beings, not subject to the normal limitations of space and time.

What I'm beginning to suspect, is that Sibyl's prophecy is a true prophesy which must come true... because if it doesn't, this would create a paradox which would have very bad effects on the Wapsi Square timeline. If something prevents the prophesy from coming true, the whole timeline might reset (just as the CM did, but even moreso), or split apart, or be shattered. Everything we've seen happen there might (as Laumer's "Dinosaur Beach" put it) be relegated to the realm of unrealized possibilities. It could cease to ever have been.

It's possible that this is what Bia is trying to prevent. She's trying to maneuver people and events into a path which will force the prophesy to come true, so that the whole Wapsi timeline (back to and even before the destruction of Lanthis) doesn't become self-inconsistent, and thus cease to be. She may be trying to ensure the creation of a Being which is capable of traveling back (or sending information back) ten thousand years or so, to tell Sibyl that Bia's descendant has set things right and that the Five Winged Beings have done ???. (I'm guessing this could be Tina at some point, due to her demonic origins).

In doing so, Bia would enable Sibyl to be a true prophet, and thus bind the timeline into a consistent state.

So... as little as I like the idea, a heartless, conscienceless bitch may be just what's called for here. Bia may be acting just like one of the industrial capitalists who built the railroads and oil companies and trusts and newspaper empires during the development of the American west. She'll manipulate anyone, scam anyone, lie as much as she needs to, in order to achieve her goal. She won't care who she hurts, as long as she can make a prophet.

[Aed]

I suspect that prophecy still plays a big motivation in Bia's actions. The question is, does anyone truly understand what the Sibyl was saying will happen?

And what part do five winged beings play in it (assuming that's the same prophecy)?

Five winged beings- Tina, Phix, Shelly, Atsali, and... ?

I think it's more the original prophecy from Sybil:

"The Land of the Crescent will turn to glass, but you (Bia) would have a descendant who will set the powers right."

You may very well both be right. I think the presence of the prophecy (or prophecies) is crucial here, for very non-trivial reasons.

It all has to do with Time.

Prophecy is (as one SF author pointed out) a form of time travel or time-bending. I'm not talking about predictions or guesses here, but true prophecy. Such a prophecy of What Must Be, involves information traveling backwards in time, from the event itself back to the day when the prophetic vision was "seen".

This gets really tricky in a universe such as Wapsi Square, because we've seen that Wapsi time isn't a fixed progression. Time isn't linear, and history can be changed. The Calendar Machine bent/reset time repeatedly, wiping out more than two dozen timelines. In the Time Forest dimension, the timeline flows backwards from mainline Wapsi time, wasn't subject to the Calendar Machine bending, and may even have warped back into a circle at the moment Shelly entered/exited. The demons are quantum beings, not subject to the normal limitations of space and time.

What I'm beginning to suspect, is that Sibyl's prophecy is a true prophesy which must come true... because if it doesn't, this would create a paradox which would have very bad effects on the Wapsi Square timeline. If something prevents the prophesy from coming true, the whole timeline might reset (just as the CM did, but even moreso), or split apart, or be shattered. Everything we've seen happen there might (as Laumer's "Dinosaur Beach" put it) be relegated to the realm of unrealized possibilities. It could cease to ever have been.

It's possible that this is what Bia is trying to prevent. She's trying to maneuver people and events into a path which will force the prophesy to come true, so that the whole Wapsi timeline (back to and even before the destruction of Lanthis) doesn't become self-inconsistent, and thus cease to be. She may be trying to ensure the creation of a Being which is capable of traveling back (or sending information back) ten thousand years or so, to tell Sibyl that Bia's descendant has set things right and that the Five Winged Beings have done ???. (I'm guessing this could be Tina at some point, due to her demonic origins).

In doing so, Bia would enable Sibyl to be a true prophet, and thus bind the timeline into a consistent state.

So... as little as I like the idea, a heartless, conscienceless bitch may be just what's called for here. Bia may be acting just like one of the industrial capitalists who built the railroads and oil companies and trusts and newspaper empires during the development of the American west. She'll manipulate anyone, scam anyone, lie as much as she needs to, in order to achieve her goal. She won't care who she hurts, as long as she can make a prophet.

Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!

... though you may well be right.

[Yamara]

First, kudos to Paul for having Tina describe Bia as "tall", when she appears slightly shorter than Tina in the moment: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/let-yourselves-feel/ ...Because dreams are like that. Very nice.

Bia doesn't strike me as a meddler -- she's out for a prize of some kind. What would constitute a victory for her?

Her sister? /rimshot

Actually, since "dysfunctional family" is what she represents in the plot at the moment, what the other Stygians think about Bia's actions would tell us quite a bit. Charon is involving his daughter, and Bud is no longer absenting herself from any of this.

Something beyond simple vengeance, I'd expect.

She's been described (in both our space and Wapsispace) as an agent of Zeus... the very personification of Force itself. It's possible that her goal may be an Olympian one, assigned to her by The Big Guy, rather than being personal.

Her plan, whatever it is, may not be "evil", might not be "good" either... it might be morally neutral or ambiguous. Whatever it is, I doubt it's terribly concerned with the comfort or even the wellbeing of those it happens to involve... that doesn't seem to be her strong suit, from what we've been told about her.

In Wapsi, evil is reserved for humans, so if Bia is dabbling in evil, she would need humans. And she has indeed bred with humans, but back in Lanthis, the capacity for human evil took her at least somewhat by surprise. She seems to have been trying to mitigate damage ever since; we've just seen a more sympathetic side of mitigation through following Bud's story.

I trust Bud, even though she was once a genocidal maniac. It's one of those odd twists of human emotion: Bud wiped out an ancient civilization, and we're pretty cool with it now. Bia lies about sleeping around recently, and we think she's the worse villain for it.

Phix and Shelly both would want to know that Bia is stirring the pot again with Tina as the focus of whatever her plan might be... which could be enough to enrage Phix all over again.

Quoted for truth. I'd be interested to see what Phix thinks about Bia mucking around with Tina given that she's kind of Tina's "watchdog" (even if she's elected not to pay too close attention based on how well Tina's been doing on her own)...and given her own personal history with the Titan.

So this may also be Bia's way of flagging Monica: Bia can take any form she wants, but presented herself in human adult form without alteration to Tina in her dream. Tina would want to speak to Monica first about dreaming, and so M can mediate the truce, or whatever Bia intends, with her younger relatives.

What this has clearly shown, however, is that Bia is involved, and if Bia is involved, she was always involved. That's how Titans think.

And since we know she has no scruples in taking various forms, the dream-Bia is making a stab at honesty with Tina. But she may not have been so honest previously, what with being always involved.

She may have been popping in and taking on false forms in all 11 dimensions, guiding Tina with words of wisdom all along.

Is this the first time we've seen Bia comfort Tina? Or the second?

. . . or the third.

[sheik]

I suspect that prophecy still plays a big motivation in Bia's actions. The question is, does anyone truly understand what the Sibyl was saying will happen?

Traditionally Sibyl's prophecies always come true, but not always in the way the interpreters read them. In fact the defective interpretations are often critical to the outcomes.
Bia may be busily engineering an outcome contrary to her expectations and not know it.
The trouble for us is, unlike Bia, we have no clue as to what "set the powers right" actually means, and perhaps Bia doesn't either.

[kingklash]

If so: What would that make our Tinas? (1.0, 2.0 etc)

Confused?

You won't be, after this episode of "Soap"!

[Dave]

Just realized... Cafe U296 and its island must be pretty far around the planet from Minneapolis... a lot further than the Bermuda Triangle. If the sun is just rising there, when Tina has just gotten off of work (and Monica is getting ready to "wind down" at the end of the day)... close to a 12-hour time difference? It must be very close to the far side of the planet for this timing to work. Somewhere in the Indian Ocean, or Polynesia?

I don't recall Monica and Jin discussing the actual locations they were investigating...

[jwhouk]

Bia aside...

Calm, confident, sagely Monica is pretty damn cool.

I was thinking about that today - in years past, Monica would be poiting to the Library so fast, you could hear the "PHIIIIIIIXXXXXX!!!" in downtown Milwaukee.

Now, the Jaguar Girl is cool, calculated and confident. It's a nice change.

[jwhouk]

First, kudos to Paul for having Tina describe Bia as "tall", when she appears slightly shorter than Tina in the moment: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/let-yourselves-feel/ ...Because dreams are like that. Very nice.

Bia doesn't strike me as a meddler -- she's out for a prize of some kind. What would constitute a victory for her?

Her sister? /rimshot

(groan)

Please deposit one pair of Air Jordans in the pun vault for that one.

[jwhouk]

Just realized... Cafe U296 and its island must be pretty far around the planet from Minneapolis... a lot further than the Bermuda Triangle. If the sun is just rising there, when Tina has just gotten off of work (and Monica is getting ready to "wind down" at the end of the day)... close to a 12-hour time difference? It must be very close to the far side of the planet for this timing to work. Somewhere in the Indian Ocean, or Polynesia?

I don't recall Monica and Jin discussing the actual locations they were investigating...

They had only narrowed it to two, and I believe it was in one of the "triangles" that apparently were set up by the World Grid's activation.

[Catawampus]

Five winged beings- Tina, Phix, Shelly, Atsali, and... ?

Roy!

[davids4250]

I do not think Bia is evil, she just has her own agenda, and as a Titan, does not really concern herself with the wellbeing of others.
I do wonder about how great is her desire for vengeance. At the very least, Phix caused her a great deal of embarrassment by knocking her through the wall of the Library. Bia could not cause any serious harm to Phix in the Library, but if/when Phix leaves the Library, she is vulnerable. Have we seen Phix outside of the Library since that incident? How about Nudge? Bia might feel like she owes he some payback, too. Have either of them spent time outside since then? Someone who is better at archive searches might know.

[Grantwhy]

Tina did not lose all kinds of memories. She has retained learned skills, obviously, like speaking English ... or recognition of newspaper clippings, not to say their relevance ... perhaps voice recognition comes with that package? Or perhaps Bia registers with her on an instinctive level, like Phix did?

The Demons lost their memories, but maybe they've been able to pickup/use some of the original Tina's?

That or knowledge does not equal memories and didn't get scrubbed from the Demons minds?

Then again, I've assumed that the "something" that "compelled" Tina 2.0 to come to the Twin Cities, was Nudge. She may have had a hand in the collective's retention of certain (types of?) memories. Or even implanting some? Moreover, even if Tina retains certain memories independent of Nudge, there's no saying she had any memory of Bia before the "punishment"

Now, I don't have the time to go archive surfing, but back when Nudge 'spilt the beans' on Shelly's ancestry (and Bia got punched out of the Library ), didn't something get said around that time that Nudge did something/was involved in that plan? If not, her knowledge was surprisingly detailed.

If so, might she have acted on behalf of Bia (or on a suggestion from Bia?) in getting Tina 2.0 to her current state/location?

[Opus the Poet]

She won't care who she hurts, as long as she can make a prophet.

I have absolutely no idea what would constitute a payment for a pun like that, but it would have to be huge. I understand there are diamonds the size of the moon at the core of Jupiter...

[Fairportfan]

She won't care who she hurts, as long as she can make a prophet.

I have absolutely no idea what would constitute a payment for a pun like that, but it would have to be huge. I understand there are diamonds the size of the moon at the core of Jupiter...

As long as the prophet gets paid...