Wapsi Square Forum

But being banned from Argo is the pinnacle of bannedishness.

GlytchMeister wrote:Well, if a big eagle can achieve takeoff with a fawn, I wouldn't be surprised if an adolescent siren didn't really notice the weight of her huge tracts of land.

That eagle lifted a fawn. A big eagle is 6kg. A small fawn is 30kg. So that makes the eagle's maximum takeoff weight/load capacity ratio of about 5x.
(Forgive my rough math. I'm doing this on 1 hour of sleep in 48 hours total...)
Let's assume Astali is 50 kg for the sake of simplicity. If I give her a maximum takeoff weight/load capacity ratio of 4x to account for the human aspects of her physical structure, she could take off and fly a short distance with 200 extra kg. That's about 1.3 William Perry's. That is a really, really big freakin' guy. That's the kind of guy who, upon meeting him, you ask him very politely not to eat you.

I really doubt an extra pound or two (total guess) would make much of a difference. I would think the most difficulty would arise from the volume. They'd get in the way more than they'd weigh her down.

Although, the closest experience I've ever had to having big boobs is wearing a backpack on my front. So take my theories with a box of salt.

Well...first of all, I'm impressed that you went so far as to figure out the math surrounding this kind of thing. However, you focused on how her flight might be impacted by the added weight...not her standing, sitting, and walking (running is out of the question without one of Lydia's non-Newtonian wonders). While her wings would easily be able to handle the strain of a new massive set of mammaries for take-off and flight, the same may or may not be true of her back. You don't see eagles sidling along on their feet carrying the additional weight of a fawn like it's nothing. To counter-balance the added mass on the front of the body, you have to work the core muscles to push the lower back forward and the shoulders back (at least that's the best I can describe what it takes for me to sit upright with good posture instead of curling my spine forward into a slouch)...and maintaining that erect position can be a strain if the muscles aren't accustomed to it...or just aren't well developed.

But like I said before...siren physiology may be equipped to handle this kind of thing. It's possible that her back and abs went through an overnight change just like her breasts did. I just know that large breasts aren't easy on the human body, so I sympathize with what Atsali might be experiencing.

GlytchMeister wrote:That eagle lifted a fawn. A big eagle is 6kg. A small fawn is 30kg. So that makes the eagle's maximum takeoff weight/load capacity ratio of about 5x.
(Forgive my rough math. I'm doing this on 1 hour of sleep in 48 hours total...)
Let's assume Astali is 50 kg for the sake of simplicity. If I give her a maximum takeoff weight/load capacity ratio of 4x to account for the human aspects of her physical structure, she could take off and fly a short distance with 200 extra kg. . . .I really doubt an extra pound or two (total guess) would make much of a difference. I would think the most difficulty would arise from the volume. They'd get in the way more than they'd weigh her down.

Two points about your comparison:

1) These sorts of things don't scale up or down neatly. That's why you can't make a heavy-lift aircraft simply by taking the plans for a smaller one and doubling the size of everything. More than likely, you'll just get an airplane that falls apart even as you're building it.

2) An eagle carrying something is a case of a weight suspended beneath the center of balance and supporting force. In Atsali's situation, it's more a case of torque being applied in a horizontalish cantilever system (unless Atsali takes her aunt Monica as a role model and starts running around on all fours). So, more along the lines of an eagle trying to walk around carrying a fawn in its outstretched wings. Even assuming that the wings had the dexterity and grip to hold the fawn, I doubt that the eagle could manage. And all of the other eagles would point and laugh.

Luckily, I don't think that Atsali has to worry about a ratio that's quite up to 5:1. As far as I know, that is; I missed the section on Siren Anatomy & Physiology in my biology studies (darned fellow classmates, tying me to a mast and all that).

So take my theories with a box of salt.

I think that a box of Nabisco's fruit Newtons would be more apropos.

Well...first of all, I'm impressed that you went so far as to figure out the math surrounding this kind of thing. However, you focused on how her flight might be impacted by the added weight...not her standing, sitting, and walking (running is out of the question without one of Lydia's non-Newtonian wonders). While her wings would easily be able to handle the strain of a new massive set of mammaries for take-off and flight, the same may or may not be true of her back. You don't see eagles sidling along on their feet carrying the additional weight of a fawn like it's nothing. To counter-balance the added mass on the front of the body, you have to work the core muscles to push the lower back forward and the shoulders back (at least that's the best I can describe what it takes for me to sit upright with good posture instead of curling my spine forward into a slouch)...and maintaining that erect position can be a strain if the muscles aren't accustomed to it...or just aren't well developed.

But like I said before...siren physiology may be equipped to handle this kind of thing. It's possible that her back and abs went through an overnight change just like her breasts did. I just know that large breasts aren't easy on the human body, so I sympathize with what Atsali might be experiencing.

Ah, so there is some lever-fulcrum physics going on here, then?
...hmmm... Well, I don't really have any data on how tall Astali is, where her overall center of gravity is, or where the specific center of gravity for her breasts are... but I think we can agree that she is tall, and the specific center of gravity of her breasts is significantly higher and farther out than her overall center of gravity, putting her position at or near the brink of instability, so her back muscles must be exerting a fair amount of force to counteract the force of gravity exerted on her breasts that is also being multiplied by the mechanical advantage of the whole lever-fulcrum system her spine, back muscles, and breasts are a part of.

I never really thought of it this way. But, being an engineering student, it suddenly makes so much more sense now. And when factoring in bounce, the physics get a harmonic element thrown in, making the forces involved that much more intense.

If anyone can find some height data on Astali, I'm sure I can throw together some more ridiculous calculations. I'm kind of looking at the harmonic motion equations in fear now...

As for why I'm going this far in the math? I like to learn more about the world. Doing the math associated with weird phenomena, in this universe or in fictional worlds, is how I gain perspective on what exactly is going on.
Plus, I get bored easily, and I want to keep my math skills sharp for when winter break is over, and I start taking calculus.
...
Oh, wow. If I can start applying calculus to the Wapsiverse, things are gonna get really wacky. The imagination boggles.

GlytchMeister wrote: ...hmmm... Well, I don't really have any data on how tall Astali is, where her overall center of gravity is, or where the specific center of gravity for her breasts are... but I think we can agree that she is tall, and the specific center of gravity of her breasts is significantly higher and farther out than her overall center of gravity, putting her position at or near the brink of instability, so her back muscles must be exerting a fair amount of force to counteract the force of gravity exerted on her breasts that is also being multiplied by the mechanical advantage of the whole lever-fulcrum system her spine, back muscles, and breasts are a part of.

I never really thought of it this way. But, being an engineering student, it suddenly makes so much more sense now. And when factoring in bounce, the physics get a harmonic element thrown in, making the forces involved that much more intense.

If anyone can find some height data on Astali, I'm sure I can throw together some more ridiculous calculations. I'm kind of looking at the harmonic motion equations in fear now...

As for why I'm going this far in the math? I like to learn more about the world. Doing the math associated with weird phenomena, in this universe or in fictional worlds, is how I gain perspective on what exactly is going on.
Plus, I get bored easily, and I want to keep my math skills sharp for when winter break is over, and I start taking calculus.
...
Oh, wow. If I can start applying calculus to the Wapsiverse, things are gonna get really wacky. The imagination boggles.

Perhaps you can start factoring in harmonics and bounces with this example:

GlytchMeister wrote:I'm kind of looking at the harmonic motion equations in fear now...

I'm not sure if it would be really easy or if it would be really difficult to get a research grant to study that subject. Depends on how much you let the funding board participate in the data collection and analysis, I suppose.

Perhaps heavy breasts HELP Siren flight - their natural period of oscillation might match that of the natural frequency of her wing beats, allowing her to fly with less effort.

The MST3K theme song just started playing in my head: "Just repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax'.".....

NOTDilbert wrote:Perhaps heavy breasts HELP Siren flight - their natural period of oscillation might match that of the natural frequency of her wing beats, allowing her to fly with less effort.

Or they provide more storage space for in-flight luggage.

The MST3K theme song just started playing in my head: "Just repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax'.".....

But what if over-analysing odd minutiae is how we relax?

Actually, I find that to be a good part of the fun of fiction: work out the problems in the writer's plot and setting, and then try to figure out ways in which the problems could potentially work and not really be problems after all.

GlytchMeister wrote:

Well...first of all, I'm impressed that you went so far as to figure out the math surrounding this kind of thing. However, you focused on how her flight might be impacted by the added weight...not her standing, sitting, and walking (running is out of the question without one of Lydia's non-Newtonian wonders). While her wings would easily be able to handle the strain of a new massive set of mammaries for take-off and flight, the same may or may not be true of her back. You don't see eagles sidling along on their feet carrying the additional weight of a fawn like it's nothing. To counter-balance the added mass on the front of the body, you have to work the core muscles to push the lower back forward and the shoulders back (at least that's the best I can describe what it takes for me to sit upright with good posture instead of curling my spine forward into a slouch)...and maintaining that erect position can be a strain if the muscles aren't accustomed to it...or just aren't well developed.

But like I said before...siren physiology may be equipped to handle this kind of thing. It's possible that her back and abs went through an overnight change just like her breasts did. I just know that large breasts aren't easy on the human body, so I sympathize with what Atsali might be experiencing.

Ah, so there is some lever-fulcrum physics going on here, then?
...hmmm... Well, I don't really have any data on how tall Astali is, where her overall center of gravity is, or where the specific center of gravity for her breasts are... but I think we can agree that she is tall, and the specific center of gravity of her breasts is significantly higher and farther out than her overall center of gravity, putting her position at or near the brink of instability, so her back muscles must be exerting a fair amount of force to counteract the force of gravity exerted on her breasts that is also being multiplied by the mechanical advantage of the whole lever-fulcrum system her spine, back muscles, and breasts are a part of.

I never really thought of it this way. But, being an engineering student, it suddenly makes so much more sense now. And when factoring in bounce, the physics get a harmonic element thrown in, making the forces involved that much more intense.

If anyone can find some height data on Astali, I'm sure I can throw together some more ridiculous calculations. I'm kind of looking at the harmonic motion equations in fear now...

As for why I'm going this far in the math? I like to learn more about the world. Doing the math associated with weird phenomena, in this universe or in fictional worlds, is how I gain perspective on what exactly is going on.
Plus, I get bored easily, and I want to keep my math skills sharp for when winter break is over, and I start taking calculus.
...
Oh, wow. If I can start applying calculus to the Wapsiverse, things are gonna get really wacky. The imagination boggles.

This made me smile. I love it when people nerd out in cool ways. Congrats, GlytchMeister! You're my favorite person for the day! *hugs!*

Oh...and if you figure this stuff out and can apply equations to it, I TOTALLY want to see the results.

Based off of the average height of kids in kindergarten, Castela is about 3'6" tall, which would make Astali an even 7' based off of this picture, where Astali is roughly 2x Castela's height.

Now, based off of comparative height analysis of Astali and Monica, whose height, according to her cast page, is 4'10", Astali's height is 5'8".

Unless someone can get enough of Paul's attention to get him to make a post confirming Astali's actual height, I'm afraid the range of values here is too great to make any meaningful calculation.

Or, if someone has the ability to derive Astali's height from her bodily proportions, that might at least narrow the field. I would try, but the extent of my knowledge in that field is based entirely off of da Vinci's Vitruvian Man.
I have a sneaking suspicion that drawing wouldn't quite work with the likes of Monica or Astali.

*ahem*

Oi! Paul! A little help here? Some canon establishment would be really nice. I don't want you to go as far as Star Wars (their wiki has gravitational constants for each planet...Dagoba's is 0.9g.)

I just need Astali's actual height, please.

Thanks in advance,
GlytchMeister

EDIT: Is it ok to PM Paul and ask him this? Or do I just wait? I'm not sure about the etiquette here...

Julie wrote:This made me smile. I love it when people nerd out in cool ways. Congrats, GlytchMeister! You're my favorite person for the day! *hugs!*

Oh...and if you figure this stuff out and can apply equations to it, I TOTALLY want to see the results.

Weee! *hugs back*

You would have loved the table I sat at for lunch in high school. Pretty much every conversation was either like this one, or we were nerding out over the latest news in science and engineering. There was a lot of discussions where we calculated the power of something Gandalf did. I can't remember the exact figure, but the time he blocked the balrog's hit with the magic shield was pretty impressive, physically speaking. We even got down to frame-by-frame analysis to determine the speed of the sword.

And then, whenever a jock started to bother us, we started to try to reconcile quantum theory with relativity. I'm pretty sure some of the words we used shorted out his poor little brain. He walked away looking a bit shell shocked.

Fairportfan wrote:Highway Departments (at least the Georgia DOT) decide where to put these

13165484842090101506Deer Crossing Sign.svg.hi.png

by watching where deer strikes occur with some frequency. That makes sense.

Supposedly, one woman in our state objected to such signs--she claimed that the DOT should put them in less-used spots, to keep the deer off the high-traveled roads. . . .

Atsali grew taller with her "growth spurt" in addition to her chest size. She is now about 5'10", prior she was about 5'4".

That makes sense.

Wapsi wrote:Atsali grew taller with her "growth spurt" in addition to her chest size. She is now about 5'10", prior she was about 5'4".

Paranormals do not do anything in small steps do they?

jwhouk wrote:That makes sense.

I have no clue as to WHY i thought you were talking about Bmonk's comment above, about the lady that objected to the deer crossing signs, but that was the first thing i thought when i read your post, and i'm thinking that you thought that was "reasonable?!"... i thought she was a nut-job, personally... i had to go back and real thru them again to realize you weren't talking about his comment, but to PAUL'S comment, for that to make sense...

Wapsi wrote:Atsali grew taller with her "growth spurt" in addition to her chest size. She is now about 5'10", prior she was about 5'4".

Yay! Height data!
*cracks knuckles*
[southern accent] It's number crunchin' time! [/southern accent]

(Time passes...)

Ok, so I had to break out the pencil and paper (and some old high school honors physics notebooks) for this one. This is as far as I got:

link to image of my calculations so far

So, does anyone remember how to calculate the torque on a diagonal strut when a vertical downward force is applied to the top end and the bottom end is affixed to a pivot? (I simplified Astali's body a bit... There's no way I am going to do all the calculations necessary for each muscle and bone between the breasts and the pelvis...)

EDIT:

Just realized my current value for the force of gravity exerted on Astali's boobs should be doubled, seeing as Astali has two boobs... D'oh!

Interesting findings: according to my math, Astali is lugging around almost twenty pounds of breast tissue. DAYUM!

Also, her bones are very strong, but hollow.

GlytchMeister wrote:

Wapsi wrote:Atsali grew taller with her "growth spurt" in addition to her chest size. She is now about 5'10", prior she was about 5'4".

Yay! Height data!
*cracks knuckles*
[southern accent] It's number crunchin' time! [/southern accent]

(Time passes...)

Ok, so I had to break out the pencil and paper (and some old high school honors physics notebooks) for this one. This is as far as I got ...

Ever encounter A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown: Essays for a Scientific Age?

Fairportfan wrote: Ever encounter A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown: Essays for a Scientific Age?

Not until now... But now I know what I want for my birthday. Those dresses have always baffled me.

Calculation progress update: Currently looking up free physics textbooks in iBooks. Also consulting Trigonometry and Calculus textbooks. Haven't found Torque yet. I will finish this. And then I'll see about figuring out the harmonic aspects.

EDIT: Found a mediocre textbook, doesn't go in-depth enough to give me the info I need to solve the problem. But I did notice that simple harmonic motion is the very next chapter after torque. How 'bout that?