Just Stop Talking 2013-11-15

[jwhouk]

...And shutting up Death's daughter for a while, too.

I'm thinking the Bibliothiki is the Ultimate Chessmaster(tm)

[Dave]

...And shutting up Death's daughter for a while, too.

I'm thinking the Bibliothiki is the Ultimate Chessmaster(tm)

"Not chess, Mr. Spock. Poker."

We've been shown that the physical structure of the Bibliothiki consists of buidings constructed atop many chunks of jagged cliff-like rock, floating in midair. Paul is obviously telling us that The Library's power and majesty is built entirely on a bluff.

(drops a healthy bribe for the building inspector into the Pun Jar. I have no idea how those midair stairways could possibly comply with the National Building Code.)

[illiad]

Fairportfan and others...

If you need to put 'dubious' vid links up, please try dailymotion - or *anything* that is not youtube, that *stamps* on anything vaguely rude or copyright...

or at least quote the name of the video, so we can find it!!!!!

even just for decent music clips, dailymotion is better....

We've been shown that the physical structure of the Bibliothiki consists of buildings constructed atop many chunks of jagged cliff-like rock, floating in midair. Paul is obviously telling us that The Library's power and majesty is built entirely on a bluff.

Well I guess that society just uses poiting to get around - those lines may just be water/ electric connections... apotraic magic solves a lot building problems!!

[GuySmiley]

I'm convinced the Bibliothici arrange the meeting between Atsali and Katherine because it knew they needed each other. Solving the mystery of the Anasasi and purging the evil spirit possessing Brandi was a bonus.

I don't doubt this. The library knew exactly what each of them wanted and knew what would happen if it put them together in this situation and wanted it to happen. Otherwise it probably wouldn't have let Atsali leave like she did, not good for business to have kids on field trips wandering off on their own I suspect, unless you want them too.

My point was, I don't think Atsali needed to use any type of Siren 'power of suggestion' to convince Katherine she wanted to go. On the other hand, the Siren 'power of picking her up and flying her out the door' was exactly what she needed.

[pinglederry]

People take away from your comic exactly what they bring to it. If someone is so obsessed with sexuality, you can be sure that's what they consume in mass quantities. This is one of the most sensitive arcs you've ever done, but try explaining that to someone who ... well, "has the emotional range of a teaspoon," to steal a great phrase.

Remember wossname - i think he was DnTME or something like that on the 9CL boards (or maybe he was that here and something else over there) who, for a while, denied he was the same person?

He was extremely misogynistic and prone to let it be known that violence by men against women didn't bother him, but violence by women against men was Right Out.

He seems to have disappeared from both fora, and i, for on, don't miss him.

Huh. For some reason I thought his handle on the WS comment pages had "wolf" in it somewhere, but we already have The Old Wolf here, so I don't remember what it could've been. That guy was the quickest way to ruin my reading of any discussion thread; I'm so glad he apparently didn't make the transition to the forum (or grew up enough to realize how icky that stuff was and left it behind).


On a different note, for those puzzled by the hearts around Castela's muffled words in the last panel: remember the first time we saw Castela again after she got adopted? Her reaction to seeing Kath looked just like that, except without Atsali muffling the "MAMA! ". I think it's pretty adorable that she apparently reacts to seeing Kath that way even when the absence is just them being in different bedrooms for the night.

[Bathorys Daughter]

What is all this angst over this arc and a few rude comments about people's (that includes women/girls) fascination over breasts? It seems like a welcome comedic break from the heavy topics of recent stories. It may get heavier later, but so far it's quite humorous, especially the flying tackle and Castela's overreaction. So cute. Well, except maybe for those eyes on stalks. Drops the cutie factor a few points.

Also, what if this is her normal other shape and how we usually see her is her trying to tone it down. Sirens may have the voluptuous shape as their normal "other" shape, even at 15. Heck, I've known human girls who were well endowed even at 15. Not me, sigh. Still not me for that matter.

Overall, I think Mr. Taylor has rewriting of mythology yet to do concerning sirens, just as he has done on Phix and other paranormal creatures. The shipwreck tales may be blown well out of proportion for the drama of things and they were not really so bloodthirsty as made out to be.

Just remember, Kath. You could have stuck with just the fish.

Looks like Oscar has been relegated to the "other child who is always away at college" status now.

After reading through this thread and viewing most of the videos (one was taken down before I could review it) I think folks are dragging to much of reality (or alternate realities) into the Wapsi-verse. Pickle was telling the story before the flash back so I think we should try and see things from her point of view. For example PonPonPon probably comes a close as any. Look closely and you will even find a bee.

Frankly I fail to see how PonPonPon relates to this or anything else in the known universe.

Remember wossname - i think he was DnTME or something like that on the 9CL boards (or maybe he was that here and something else over there) who, for a while, denied he was the same person? He was extremely misogynistic and prone to let it be known that violence by men against women didn't bother him, but violence by women against men was Right Out. He seems to have disappeared from both fora, and i, for on, don't miss him.

And I think it's very petty and wrong to say nasty things about people who aren't here to defend themselves.

[pinglederry]

Remember wossname - i think he was DnTME or something like that on the 9CL boards (or maybe he was that here and something else over there) who, for a while, denied he was the same person? He was extremely misogynistic and prone to let it be known that violence by men against women didn't bother him, but violence by women against men was Right Out. He seems to have disappeared from both fora, and i, for on, don't miss him.

And I think it's very petty and wrong to say nasty things about people who aren't here to defend themselves.

Meh. I'm usually all for that, but only if I think the person in question would give me the same consideration. Also, what about what Fairportfan said was "nasty"? If you mean where they said that they don't miss the guy, it might not be a very nice thing to say, but it's not exactly "nasty". If you mean the part where Fairportfan described what sort of stuff the guy said, is it still considered "say[ing] nasty things" about him if it's true? That was probably one of his less-vicious assertions. He did have interesting comments about the story sometimes, but the other stuff was almost triggering-level offensive, especially if you tried to engage him about it.

[illiad]

After reading through this thread and viewing most of the videos (one was taken down before I could review it) I think folks are dragging to much of reality (or alternate realities) into the Wapsi-verse. Pickle was telling the story before the flash back so I think we should try and see things from her point of view. For example PonPonPon probably comes a close as any. Look closely and you will even find a bee.

Frankly I fail to see how PonPonPon relates to this or anything else in the known universe.

well I looked at the youtube comments, and some were saying that the characters name literally translates to 'exploding boobs'....

[as363]

Well folks - looking at my clock - we only have several hours left before Mondays episode graces us with its appearance. I'm hoping that Mr. Taylor continues in the vein that he has been running in . Gives us more time to re-read the previous last week or so and further bring out more points to ponder. Or have more of them cleared up. As an aside - I'm wondering how much influence the Library has on this entire arc. We talked a lot about it when the cast was in Mexico - but it seems to have gone to the wayside lately. Would it be in Kat's character for her to visit the Library again - and see what Phix has to offer ??

[jwhouk]

It'd be interesting if we found ourselves back at the Paranor-Mall on Monday.

[Catawampus]

So we are seriously, truly, and openly talking about the attractiveness and orgasms of a 15 year old, who like every other character, now has massive breasts. It's not even being played for laughs. It's been played for titillation. That's scary.

As far as the comic goes, yeah, it is seriously, truly, and openly talking about (or illustrating) the attractiveness and sexuality of a 15-year-old. The storyline has been quite obviously building up for over a week now towards the subject of teenagers going through puberty and having issues with their appearance and sense of self; that typically happens in the early teenage years, so you really have to make it about a kid in her early teens. This is a major life issue for most of the human population, and seems like a perfectly valid subject for somebody to address. If you think that you can examine the problems of puberty without bringing up the problems of puberty, or discuss the insecurities of body image and social ideals without mention of the body or the ideals, go right ahead.

The storyline is also apparently using a sort of Jekyll-and-Hyde type of metaphor, with the one aspect being Atsali in her usual appearance and the other being her sirenesque one. The form with the massive breasts is representing the form that most teenage girls (and probably most teenage boys, for that matter) consider to be the ideal of female form. I expect that it is supposed to be over-the-top in physique and sexual attractiveness; that's a whole establishing part of the metaphor. Just how this metaphor is handled and where it takes us is something we'll have to wait and see. Some of the storylines and messages that Paul Taylor has given us over the years have worked out well, some fell flat for me (and I really believe that much of the latter is due more to my own shortcomings rather than to shortcomings in the storytelling). But even when it does fall flat, I still enjoy the characters themselves and the way in which they interact with each other. That's something that, in my opinion, Mr. Taylor is very skilled at and is the main reason why I decided to read this comic.

As for every other character having massive breasts: no. Even excluding the ones who obviously wouldn't have them (Kevin, Alan, Dietzel, et al), still no. The characters in this comic show a wide range of body shapes. More so than most comics that I can think of, in fact. Amanda, Shelly, Bud, Georgette, Tsillah in her normal look. . .none of them are all that likely to be needing to special order their undergarments. Most of the rest are sort of in the average range, from what I can tell. Many of the female characters do show off what they have to best effect, sure, but how is that different from how women would act in real life? This isn't the story of some Amish commune or something such as that, after all.

And if you're not seeing the humour in this storyline, or even in the last couple of pages of the story, well, that's your loss. I'm finding it hilarious.

If you're referring to the comments in the forum with your complaint, then you're apparently missing the point that most of the comments are either about personal experiences or about generalisations. I literally spent part of my life living in a cave, yet even I know full well that people are going to make lots of jokes whenever breasts are mentioned in a situation that isn't totally serious. Heck, many will do so even when it is totally serious. Most of the comments specifically about Atsali's appearance and sexuality seem to be more along the lines of discussing those aspects of the storyline theme, which is not exactly a shocking find on a forum for discussing the aspects of the storyline.

[Catawampus]

I guess this also proves that Kath is no longer a nudist.

I imagine that would have changed as soon as she brought the girls home.

Or else at some point we're going to get another flashback with even more family awkwardness in it.

BOOBIES!!!

Yeah...that was really all I had to share today.

What an udderly silly post.

The way Kath's luck re peace and quiet has been running, it's about time for everybody to find out that Oscar is actually a were-kraken (just about to reach puberty).

He could be the miniaturised pocket version, given a limited release to the public for betta testing.

Silly question,but does the Siren's song only affect males?

The mythology says they "lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island".

As at the time all sailors are assumed to be male so I can see where the assumption that sirens song/charm work only on males, but is there any evidence one way or the other on if their song/charm affects females as well?

There are no silly questions, merely silly people who ask questions.

Anyway, most of the mythology I've read that talks about the sirens doesn't say anything about sexuality being a basic part of the sirens' songs. Rather, it's more that they make whatever sorts of claims and promises they think will appeal to the listener (so sex could be a part of the lure, but it could also just be promises of power or wealth or knowledge). According to Athenaeus of Naucratis, for example, they told Odysseus that they knew about everything everywhere and could also see the future. Plus, they just apparently sang incredibly beautiful songs. All of that combined drew any listener to their island, where people would just sit around listening until they fell over dead from starvation and thirst. Promises of wealth and power tend to work just as well on women as on men, and both men and women can appreciate music, so I don't imagine that it would only work on men. Though perhaps the sirens only targeted men, ignoring women.

Of course, the Greeks generally made little distinction between mythology and history, and were quite happy to re-work either one to fit the needs of the moment. So there's not really one unified canon of myths. There could very well be some myths stating that sirens could lure women, while others firmly state that they couldn't. And since this comic tends to take those myths and scramble them all up anyway, Atsali could end up working in some totally unexpected way (luring only hermaphroditic hippos, for example).

So cute. Well, except maybe for those eyes on stalks. Drops the cutie factor a few points.

Aww, c'mon! They're adorable! And so expressive, too!

[loxmyth]

Appropos of the Library apparently manipulating things to give folks the information and relationships they need (rather than what they actually want)... I'm reminded of an old observation. Einstein's objection to quantum theory's probabilistic nature was that he had trouble believing that God plays dice with the universe. I suspect that the Library not only plays dice with the demigods, but (a) is winning, because (b) it cheats.

Or maybe the demigods are the dice it's playing with.

Everyone else has already covered the observations about humor, about perspective, and about the fact that you can't discuss the transition from child to adult without admitting that bodies exist, so I don't think I have much to add there except to second the support for Pablo. Seems entirely tasteful and appropriate and insightful to me, as well as maintaining a good balance between serious topic and humor... but no material will be to everyone's taste, and everyone does see it through their own experiences and filters. The last arc was hard for some folks to read; maybe this one will be hard for this complainant. Up to them to decide whether they can deal with sticking around to see what's done with it or if they should go read something else... but it's clear that consensus is that their concern is misplaced.

[Opus the Poet]

He could be the miniaturised pocket version, given a limited release to the public for betta testing.

There is a pun vault inquiring about typos and looking pointedly in your direction.

There are no silly questions, merely silly people who ask questions.

Point taken

Anyway, most of the mythology I've read that talks about the sirens doesn't say anything about sexuality being a basic part of the sirens' songs. Rather, it's more that they make whatever sorts of claims and promises they think will appeal to the listener (so sex could be a part of the lure, but it could also just be promises of power or wealth or knowledge). According to Athenaeus of Naucratis, for example, they told Odysseus that they knew about everything everywhere and could also see the future. Plus, they just apparently sang incredibly beautiful songs. All of that combined drew any listener to their island, where people would just sit around listening until they fell over dead from starvation and thirst. Promises of wealth and power tend to work just as well on women as on men, and both men and women can appreciate music, so I don't imagine that it would only work on men. Though perhaps the sirens only targeted men, ignoring women.

Or it could be the tale-tellers ignoring women as beneath notice...

[AmriloJim]

Though perhaps the sirens only targeted men, ignoring women.

Does the superstition of women onboard sailing vessels being bad luck extend back to the age of the Sirens?

[zachariah]

Though perhaps the sirens only targeted men, ignoring women.

Does the superstition of women onboard sailing vessels being bad luck extend back to the age of the Sirens?

Maybe even further. This probably comes from the problems that can happen with crews on long voyages. With mixed crews back then unless the women were as hard bitten and tough as the men possible confrontations could break out in the crew over them. It would create stress and tension from men who might be tempted, or stupid enough to use force. Since sailing was risky and the captains wanted as few problems as possible in the crew women were excluded. In some cultures it worked, but most of the cultures it didn't. What captain would want possble crew control problems in dangerous situations. So the myth got started.

[KnightDelight]

As far as age is concerned, we should remember that, when most people didn't live past 30, 13 was considered an adult. You hit puberty and you were considered ready to go. Nature considered you ready after all. 40 was old age and people's bodies were simply worn out from the hardships they endured. We still have a harking back to that with the Bar Mitzvah ritual. 15 would be considered well into adulthood. It wasn't all that long ago either. I seem to recall something about cowboys in the old west often starting out in their mid teens. Before child labor laws children were worked as hard as adults. Well before 13. My point is that thinking of age 15 as being still a child is a very recent concept in human history. People from the 1800s and even early 1900s would be amazed we were even discussing and agonizing over this. Even today, many people in countries like India would be wondering what all the fuss is about.

[Julie]

[tigger voice] The most wonderful thing about boobiez
Iz boobiez are wonderful thingz
their tops are made out of jello
their bottomz are made out of springz
they're bouncey, trouncey, founcey, pouncey
FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN!!!
The most wonderful thing about boobiez is...
Mine aren't the only onez!!!!![/tigger voice]

drops a Winnie the Pooh DVD in the pun jar to be safe

WIN!! Thank you for putting that together!

[illiad]

Though perhaps the sirens only targeted men, ignoring women.

Does the superstition of women onboard sailing vessels being bad luck extend back to the age of the Sirens?

Maybe even further. This probably comes from the problems that can happen with crews on long voyages. With mixed crews back then unless the women were as hard bitten and tough as the men possible confrontations could break out in the crew over them. It would create stress and tension from men who might be tempted, or stupid enough to use force. Since sailing was risky and the captains wanted as few problems as possible in the crew women were excluded. In some cultures it worked, but most of the cultures it didn't. What captain would want possible crew control problems in dangerous situations. So the myth got started.

well I did a bit of googling....
http://www.maritimeheritage.org/news/womenatsea.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/em ... shtml#five

[ICQisstillathing]

So we are seriously, truly, and openly talking about the attractiveness and orgasms of a 15 year old, who like every other character, now has massive breasts. It's not even being played for laughs. It's been played for titillation. That's scary.

Wow, if that's the only thing you can take away from this new arc, I feel sorry for you. Your reading comprehension, human understanding, and experience of others who have had their bodies embarrass them during growth spurts is severely lacking. If you're being aroused by this and that makes you uncomfortable, that's on you. This is NOT about arousing anyone, she's 15 years old, and this arc will be about body acceptance, dealing with potentially negative attention, finding real friends, and finding strengths in oneself. If you need to cling to my comic being negative in your mind, please go away and tell every like-minded person to yourself how much I suck and the go away. If you're willing to let the story unfold and find the meaning in my work, feel free to stay. Your choice.

Funny thing. I've been reading since Kathryn was legitimately creepy looking, the comic's description included the god of alcohol, and a decent number of the comics focused on people mooning over each other. So, 2002? In other words, I've been watching the story unfold for a while. As time has gone on, your art and story lines have changed. The comic has grown a beard. No more reflections on making big strong girls feel feminine, which was in itself a form of body acceptance. Now it mostly untangling mythology, killing babies, torturing people for all eternity, figuring out who is whose mom, and so on. The funny elements are afterthoughts. I enjoy the plot, but the last few have been uncomfortable.

I'm thinking of Evil Diva (bear with me), which was a quasi-lighthearted storyline about a devil girl with good powers that come from a wand. There was a time skip and Diva was visiting her sister's college, at which point she was almost date raped and used her magic to get out of it, at which point I stopped reading. Date rape is serious shit to throw into a comic that was more or less about being a teen out of place in the world. Using a magic wand to prevent the actual rape felt so disingenuous and lazy that I couldn't go back.

So when Monica was saved from her rapist by vampires, became an avatar who could magically heal out some portion of damage and guilt. I went...oh no, it's Evil Diva all over again. Certainly, Wapsi was darker than Evil Diva, but at the same time, I became hesitant. Walking into a coffee shop and raping someone was beyond the pale even for this comic. I trusted the writing and, well, was mostly disappointed in how it was resolved (Everyone is more or less a-okay! We just need to hug it out!). However, I was still invested in the characters.

Then I take a look at poor Atsali, who transformed overnight from an interesting sidekick into yet another busty babe (Go look at the character art over time. Everyone is curvier and more hourglass shaped. The random critters are introduced as busty. The fish person is busty.) Atsali's wearing a button-down shirt to bed. Do you know how many teen girls who wear that to bed? Having been one, the answer is, not many. It was done to show everyone the cute underboob shot and the visual gag of the buttons popping off. She's uncomfortable. Wildly so. Yet she's being drawn in the same perspective and presentation as we get when seeing Monica deliberately trying to be sexy. And having gone through the enjoyable (?) experience of growing huge boobs and needing to deal with them, I can say that at that age, my first instinct wouldn't be to shut up my baby sister, whom I have and who is mouthy. My first instinct would be covering myself. So I'm not being aroused. I'm saying that in the context of what's happening, it's not being drawn in a way that suggests awkwardness.

Long story short, I'm now reading for schadenfreude. Maybe I'll come back when there's more mythical plot, but I have a feeling it'll just be more T&A. Which is a damn shame.