Wapsi Square Forum

Julie wrote:...In the end, you're probably right about being careful about prophecies when we don't know the full prophecy...and even then people have to be careful about prophecies.

No kidding... Just thinking back to all the stories I've read/seen/heard, I get a jumbled mess of thought trains. I still don't think I fully understand the details of the Prophecies in The Belgariad and The Malloreon.
Hell, the Mrin Codex has two separate possible reasons for why it was so cryptic: A) the Mrin Prophet was totally bonkers, but that was all the Light Entity had to work with or B) because the Light Entity knew it really annoyed one of the main characters and thought it would be funny.
So, when dealing with prophecies, I wouldn't be too surprised if they turn out to just be an elaborate troll on Monica and Co. by a bunch of trickster gods and etc, possibly including Nudge, Hermes, and Loki.
Or, it could mean exactly what it says, but just sounds cryptic to mess with our heads.
...
That's the thing with Prophecies... The future has infinitely many possibilities, all of which could be caused by the most infinitesimal differences. Monica buys crunchy peanut butter instead of creamy by accident, and finds out at the counter. She spends an extra 60 seconds in the store getting creamy peanut butter. Because of this delay, she begins her drive home a minute later, by which time the temperature outside has dropped just low enough to begin freezing a particular puddle on her way home. She drives over it, skids ever so slightly, causing a tiny pebble to be dislodged from the asphalt.
A few months later, that tiny irregularity has become a pothole. A non local businessman is driving along at night, hits the pothole, and damages his tire more than he would have. This extra tire damage makes him get a flat on the way to an important business meeting the next summer, and is thus late. His boss decides to promote the businessman's coworker instead, who runs the company into the ground instead of building it up into a successful enterprise. Hundreds of thousands of people are not hired. A portion of them go into crime instead, one of which happens to be a particularly twisted ursamorph, who becomes an assassin specializing in infiltrating high-security hideouts. They eventually get a contract from some very rich people who want the President of the United States killed in a manner that would incriminate his cabinet. The people's trust in their government falters and fails. Revolts, riots, and revolution tear across the nation. The weakened state of the Union invites foreign attack, and the USA is no more, replaced by a war-torn place that looks more like Somalia than anything else. As a result, interplanetary colonization technology is not developed in time for the catastrophic failure of Earth's climactic system, and the last dregs of humanity perish as their planet becomes ever more hostile to life, culminating in a Snowball Earth, killing everything that doesn't live off deep-ocean hydrothermal vents, and immortal beings.
All because Monica accidentally picked up the crunchy peanut butter instead.

The Belgariad, the Malloreon, Belgarath the Sorceror and Polgara the Sorceress flatly contradict each other on many points.

Fairportfan wrote:The Belgariad, the Malloreon, Belgarath the Sorceror and Polgara the Sorceress flatly contradict each other on many points.

Perhaps the Light Entity's two explanations of the Mrin Codex were a hint to what David Eddings was doing with the whole series, though to a lesser extent. Perhaps he didn't keep notes on all the explanations from previous books... Or he just made up new ones because it's funny to mess with people's heads.

Julie wrote:not sure about your reference to Katherine since I don't remember her with wings. . .

Seeing as how prophecies often seem to get all metaphorical or symbolic, I figured that Katherine could metaphorically be considered "winged". She was in the Air Force, after all, and even though only a fraction of the personnel actually fly around much, every person wears wings on their uniforms at some point or another. Often many, many sets of wings. And then there's all of the various unit emblems and whatnot that also feature wings.

Julie wrote:...don't know who "Ms. Vespa" is...

...was it the hornet that stung Monica on her butt?

GlytchMeister wrote:

Julie wrote:...don't know who "Ms. Vespa" is...

...was it the hornet that stung Monica on her butt?

Likely, being that "vespa" is Italian for "wasp".

Or "annoying motorscooter that exacerbates traffic".

GlytchMeister wrote:...
That's the thing with Prophecies... The future has infinitely many possibilities, all of which could be caused by the most infinitesimal differences. Monica buys crunchy peanut butter instead of creamy by accident, and finds out at the counter. She spends an extra 60 seconds in the store getting creamy peanut butter. Because of this delay, she begins her drive home a minute later, by which time the temperature outside has dropped just low enough to begin freezing a particular puddle on her way home. She drives over it, skids ever so slightly, causing a tiny pebble to be dislodged from the asphalt.
A few months later, that tiny irregularity has become a pothole. A non local businessman is driving along at night, hits the pothole, and damages his tire more than he would have. This extra tire damage makes him get a flat on the way to an important business meeting the next summer, and is thus late. His boss decides to promote the businessman's coworker instead, who runs the company into the ground instead of building it up into a successful enterprise. Hundreds of thousands of people are not hired. A portion of them go into crime instead, one of which happens to be a particularly twisted ursamorph, who becomes an assassin specializing in infiltrating high-security hideouts. They eventually get a contract from some very rich people who want the President of the United States killed in a manner that would incriminate his cabinet. The people's trust in their government falters and fails. Revolts, riots, and revolution tear across the nation. The weakened state of the Union invites foreign attack, and the USA is no more, replaced by a war-torn place that looks more like Somalia than anything else. As a result, interplanetary colonization technology is not developed in time for the catastrophic failure of Earth's climactic system, and the last dregs of humanity perish as their planet becomes ever more hostile to life, culminating in a Snowball Earth, killing everything that doesn't live off deep-ocean hydrothermal vents, and immortal beings.
All because Monica accidentally picked up the crunchy peanut butter instead.

So, you are an engineer with a taste for Chaos theory. That can't go wrong in any possible way (Watches the news as you create the first Starship with Improbability Drive):roll: (Also I loved your long term results of a Chaos event.)

Mark N wrote:

GlytchMeister wrote:(crunchy-peanut-butter-flavored global mass extinction)

So, you are an engineer with a taste for Chaos theory. That can't go wrong in any possible way (Watches the news as you create the first Starship with Improbability Drive):roll: (Also I loved your long term results of a Chaos event.)

Yeah... I kinda get that a lot. Y'know how Dr. Sheldon Cooper is described as "one failed lab experiment from being an evil genius"? A friend of mine once said I'm one successful lab experiment from being an evil genius. muahaha.
...
Chaos theory? That's what it's called? Huh. I've always sort of thought of it as my own weird mixture of timey-wimey + many worlds theory + butterfly effect. I guess I have a comprehensive, yet catchy name for it now.
...
I could keep going, but the post was getting to tl;dr lengths, and I didn't want to take up a whole page when I have a grand total of 95 posts including this one.

Interesting side note: iPad Autocorrect will change muaha into MUAHAHAHAH. It kinda feels like my iPad is a bit too enthusiastic about maniacal laughter.

Butterfly effect = Chaos Theory.

jwhouk wrote:Butterfly effect = Chaos Theory.

Whoops! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

...huh. I think I have some new ideas for some books. I've never really thought of using chaos theory to make a story before. That whole thing just sorta blurted out, if that word works in typing context. Fascinating.

GlytchMeister wrote:

jwhouk wrote:Butterfly effect = Chaos Theory.

Whoops! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

...huh. I think I have some new ideas for some books. I've never really thought of using chaos theory to make a story before. That whole thing just sorta blurted out, if that word works in typing context. Fascinating.

also look into fractals... how a *very simple* shape ( a bent line) can make a complex thing like a tree

Introduction to Fractals and IFS

or wiki shows a prettier one.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal

Don't forget, it's the the (cumulative) effect of of all those Butterflies that have provided a dampening, corrective aspect to otherwise obvious chaos.

Go plant some Butterfly (and BEE!) friendly plants in your backyard, fire escape, roof top garden.

The fate of our existence is in your hands...

GlytchMeister wrote:Y'know how Dr. Sheldon Cooper is described as "one failed lab experiment from being an evil genius"? A friend of mine once said I'm one successful lab experiment from being an evil genius.

*cough*


Sorry, my inner pedant was driving me crazy.

Re: illiad's fractals: yep, I've seen those before. Mandelbrot sets and all that.
I've always envisioned the interconnected timelines of the parallel universi in the many worlds theory to look like a messed up fractal tree, since every either/or situation creates a bifurcation between possibilities, and often these situations have more than one outcome... Monica might get the creamy on the first try, or she might get the crunchy, or she might forget entirely, or she decided to give crunchy a try since she already was at the cashier... Each possibility creating its own timeline and possible universe.
And then, if you want to get really deep, consider this: radioactive decay occurs only when you aren't looking at the atom itself (quantum stuff, don't ask me why. Apparently, uranium is shy, or something). When an atom finally does decay, the radioactive emission can shoot out in any direction relative to the atom (so far as I know). That pretty much creates infinitely many possibilities right there.
That's just one atom. Our universe contains a whole friggin' bunch of those things. And each little radioactive emission has a chance of setting off one chain of events or another.
And then there's the ever-so-slight possibility that something will happen because of some kind of quantum bullcrap or another that will literally re-write the very laws of physics. Or create another Big Bang inside of our own universe.
...
Re: MerchManDan's correction:
Dangit. I really should have looked that up before I made the reference. I should know better than to make an incorrect reference to a show about one of the most detail-oriented characters ever created.

GlytchMeister: I don't really get that 'observed' stuff... its all a 'thought experiment' by physicists.. a LOT of maths and formulas, that guys even smarter than Sheldon Cooper do every day..
search for 'double slit experiment' on youtube..
the big question is WHAT do they use to 'observe' ?? nobody says.. surely just seeing the 'unobserved' experiment is observing??????

Look up 'Brian Cox' who at least can make it a bit simpler for us normal folk...

illiad wrote:GlytchMeister: I don't really get that 'observed' stuff... its all a 'thought experiment' by physicists.. a LOT of maths and formulas, that guys even smarter than Sheldon Cooper do every day..
search for 'double slit experiment' on youtube..
the big question is WHAT do they use to 'observe' ?? nobody says.. surely just seeing the 'unobserved' experiment is observing??????

Look up 'Brian Cox' who at least can make it a bit simpler for us normal folk...

Richard Feynman, one of the leading quantum physicists, said that nobody really understands quantum mechanics.
I am certainly not going to say that I do. I'm just a guy with a knack for science, engineering, and math. But it is still possible to actually observe such tiny things. I've seen a photo of an individual atom so detailed you could see the electron cloud shell.
So we can actually watch a single atom of uranium like a blob of pitch, but the pitch is much more cooperative. Because of certain quantum laws (or something... Not an expert!) uranium and other radioactive elements will literally refuse to decay if you watch the atoms themselves on an individual scale... Until you look away. (It's really freaking frustrating, and -even worse- it lends a little bit of credibility to Weeping Angels. Sure, they'll decay if you just stare at a chunk of them with your eyeballs and drool all over yourself. But not if you pick one out of the crowd and monitor it.
I honestly have no idea how an atom knows if it's being monitored. It's creepy, if you ask me.

That's why it looks as if quantum entanglement of sub-atomic particles won't work for faster-than-light communications ... because you have to observe the "receiver" and observing it keeps it from working.

Fairportfan wrote:That's why it looks as if quantum entanglement of sub-atomic particles won't work for faster-than-light communications ... because you have to observe the "receiver" and observing it keeps it from working.

Ask Ursula K. Le Guin, her Ansible does this all the time and Orson Scott Card's even gave birth to a sentient consciousness named Jane.

Tina wrote:The sun is a star, they don't give off light! That's just an expression! They only emit radiation!

It just occurred to me that Tina might have hollow eyesockets because her eyes were physically destroyed in the crash that left her soulless. She needed extensive plastic surgery to get her teeth back in working order, so it's entirely reasonable to suppose that there was other damage. The Crew would be familiar with the concept of light from their experience of the demon realm, but they're probably using their own aura-vision powers to compensate for the fact that Tina's body is completely blind. That would allow them to perceive their surroundings by picking up psychological impressions of people and objects, but leave them with no solid idea of how these things would look to someone who could see. That would explain why she never got the hang of making her eyes look fully natural -- she can read their impressions of what she looks like and make adjustments until it doesn't bother them much, but her eyes still fall into the uncanny valley because she can't see what she's doing and has to guess. It would also explain the noodle incident where she somehow managed to run over her own wrist while parallel parking. She couldn't see the curb, so she was trying to compensate by feeling for it with her hand.

ActionKermit: yeah, If you have been following Geordi on Startrek NG, his visor sees all radiation, so it is not quite the same as 'human vision' as he explained in one episode.. you may find some digital cameras see 'more' than your eyes, there may be IR or UV sources interfering..