Wapsi Square Forum

lake_wrangler wrote:

jwhouk wrote:No, like I said: Doubt doesn't like being told she's a liar. And the "pants on fire" part was just M's emphasis of the fact.

But we know (and I don't have time to look for it) that Monica did put one or more of her demons on fire before, as was mentioned when she was informed that the rules had been changed (nose flick). So she had done some fiery stuff that harmed the demons (even if not permanently). Since she had no astral fire capabilities until the knife in her head, what exactly did she do to them, back then?

Earliest manifestation of the "Demon Shepherd".

Not directly related to the Jaguar Girl, perhaps.

She had the capability of the Power of Suggestion before her Jaguar Girl powers manifested themselves at the Calendar Machine.

The whole thing is complicated enough that Pablo can tell the story as he wants.

I think she was always the Jaguar girl, (born with the capacity and trained since childhood) the Phoenix part though is all Bia.

Mark N wrote:I think she was always the Jaguar girl, (born with the capacity and trained since childhood) the Phoenix part though is all Bia.

Was it Bia? Wasn't the knife/key thing that stabbed Monica something they got from Tina (she used it to wind her clock)? I feel like there was discussion about Bia's involvement at some point, but I don't really recall the comic where it was clearly stated that Bia was the one who put the phoenix blood in the knife/key. A little help?

Also, this...

jwhouk wrote:She had the capability of the Power of Suggestion before her Jaguar Girl powers manifested themselves at the Calendar Machine.

I think when Bud and Shelly were teasing the Jaguar Girl into full manifestation it was mentioned that the blade was solidified Phoenix blood made by Bia. I'll try to find it...

Jabberwonky wrote:I think when Bud and Shelly were teasing the Jaguar Girl into full manifestation it was mentioned that the blade was solidified Phoenix blood made by Bia. I'll try to find it...

Yep, http://wapsisquare.com/comic/my-turn/

ETA: Ah, yes, the "blade was solidified Phoenix blood". I got nothing. "Anyone with Phoenix blood" was mentioned in connection with Astral Fire, but not in connection with the blade, as far as I recall.

Sidhekin wrote:

Jabberwonky wrote:I think when Bud and Shelly were teasing the Jaguar Girl into full manifestation it was mentioned that the blade was solidified Phoenix blood made by Bia. I'll try to find it...

Yep, http://wapsisquare.com/comic/my-turn/

Well, it says made by Bia (like the other tchotchkes) but it doesn't say "phoenix blood".

Sidhekin wrote:

Jabberwonky wrote:I think when Bud and Shelly were teasing the Jaguar Girl into full manifestation it was mentioned that the blade was solidified Phoenix blood made by Bia. I'll try to find it...

Yep, http://wapsisquare.com/comic/my-turn/

ETA: Ah, yes, the "blade was solidified Phoenix blood". I got nothing. "Anyone with Phoenix blood" was mentioned in connection with Astral Fire, but not in connection with the blade, as far as I recall.

Well...I could be an annoying nitpicker and point out that Bud merely asks Shelly to verify that the blade was made by Bia, and Shelly didn't answer the question. But I think it's safe to assume from that comic that you guys are right. I just wonder how it got into Tina's posession then.

Julie wrote:Well...I could be an annoying nitpicker and point out that Bud merely asks Shelly to verify that the blade was made by Bia, and Shelly didn't answer the question. But I think it's safe to assume from that comic that you guys are right. I just wonder how it got into Tina's posession then.

All we seem to know for sure, is that Tina 2.0 says she found the clock and the blade-key that it wound up, in Tina 1.0's house after she "awoke" in the morgue, "felt they were important", and kept them. Since Tina 2.0 hasn't ever been portrayed as being a liar, we can probably take her explanation as being accurate, I think.

This loosely implies a whole bunch of possibilities... that Bia herself might have given it to Tina 1.0 with some kind of story about its importance; that Bia "planted" it in Tina's home at the time of her death and somehow induced Tina 2.0 to feel that it was important; that an earlier-time-loop Brandi, or Jin, may have done or arranged one of these "handoffs" entirely independent of Bia, "knowing" how such a blade would need to be used during this time-loop's CM smackdown; that knowledge about the key's possible role in the smackdown was so profoundly powerful that it may have survived through both Tina's death and the subsequent punitive memory-erasure of the demon covey; etc.

It seems likely that whoever set up Monica to be stabbed in the head during the smackdown, knew enough about the blade to be aware of all of the effects it would have on her, but even that isn't certain.

That was all Brandi. Or Senior Director Oduya (aka "Nu Gui", aka "Thup"). We'll never quite know for sure.

Sidhekin wrote:

Jabberwonky wrote:I think when Bud and Shelly were teasing the Jaguar Girl into full manifestation it was mentioned that the blade was solidified Phoenix blood made by Bia. I'll try to find it...

Yep, http://wapsisquare.com/comic/my-turn/

ETA: Ah, yes, the "blade was solidified Phoenix blood". I got nothing. "Anyone with Phoenix blood" was mentioned in connection with Astral Fire, but not in connection with the blade, as far as I recall.

IIRC, Shelly did tell Monica something like that "That blade in your head, that isn't really in your head, won't let you die. At least, not permanently."

So, it's the blade which empowers her resurrections... which take place in a burst of astral fire... which is something that's available to anyone who possesses Phoenix blood. And, the Phoenix is a beast which is notorious for resurrecting itself in a burst if flame.

So, either it's the blade which somehow innoculated Monica with Phoenix blood, or there are two entirely separate and unrelated McGuffins needed for her to resurrect in flames (Phoenix blood from an unexplained source to provide the astral fire, and the blade to create immortality in some unexplained way).

Occam's Razor suggests that the former is more likely.

Whether the blade was made of Phoenix blood, coated with Phoenix blood, filled with Phoenix blood, accidentally contaminated with Phoenix blood after having been used to stab the Emperor of the Phoenix Empire to death, or soaked overnight in a marinade of Phoenix blood, spices, and bourbon by a metallophage who planned to roast it for dinner the next day has not been revealed (except possibly on Paul's Facebook page, which I can't read because I don't subscribe to Facebook).

jwhouk wrote:That was all Brandi. Or Senior Director Oduya (aka "Nu Gui", aka "Thup"). We'll never quite know for sure.

That's entirely possible... but it just puts the mystery back a step. If true, it begs the question: how did the blade-key come from Bia (presuming that she created it) to Brandi? How much did Brandi know about its ultimate effect on Monica? How much of what happened to Monica was ultimately due to Bia's plans and manipulations? Did Brandi somehow maneuver Bia into creating the key, or did Bia out-chessmaster Brandi/SDO, or did they cooperate, or were their plans entirely independant and just intersected by chance?

As you say... we may never know for sure.

Dave wrote: So, it's the blade which empowers her resurrections... which take place in a burst of astral fire... which is something that's available to anyone who possesses Phoenix blood. And, the Phoenix is a beast which is notorious for resurrecting itself in a burst if flame.

So, either it's the blade which somehow innoculated Monica with Phoenix blood, or there are two entirely separate and unrelated McGuffins needed for her to resurrect in flames (Phoenix blood from an unexplained source to provide the astral fire, and the blade to create immortality in some unexplained way).

Occam's Razor suggests that the former is more likely.

All Bud said was that titans and people with phoenix blood could wield astral fire. We know M is a titan, so by the razor principle we don't have a reason to suspect that phoenixes are involved *at all* unless it gets called out explicitly in the story. That said, it might go some ways towards explaining why M survived having the front half of her head smashed off with her memories intact while Justin lost everything after he took a bullet to the brainpan.

ActionKermit wrote:All Bud said was that titans and people with phoenix blood could wield astral fire. We know M is a titan, so by the razor principle we don't have a reason to suspect that phoenixes are involved *at all* unless it gets called out explicitly in the story. That said, it might go some ways towards explaining why M survived having the front half of her head smashed off with her memories intact while Justin lost everything after he took a bullet to the brainpan.

Well... maybe... but I may pick a nit or two here.

Monica isn't a "titan". She's a "sub-titan". We don't know enough about the distinction between the two, to know whether sub-titans as a class are able to wield astral fire, or whether that's a somewhat-unique characteristic of the Jaguar Girl sub-titan (Monica). We also don't know how much (if any) "pre-sub-titan" status she had, before she was stabbed, repeatedly frozen, and then had her "waking up" burst of fire. It may very well be that the stabbing with the blade was an essential element in her becoming the Jaguar Girl sub-titan - and, if so, how?

Bud says that titans are able to wield astral fire. There's nothing on record, as far as I know, that says that titans are able to regenerate in the way that Monica does. Wapsiverse titans may well be immortal (non-aging) but they may or may not be effectively unkillable (as a class).

Phoenixes, on the other hand, have a long depiction as being portrayed as regenerating / being-reborn / becoming-their-own-child in a process of burning, which is what Monica does... it's possible that her use of astral fire to regenerate is something that other fire-wielders cannot necessarily do. And, Bud did specifically "call out" Phoenix blood after Monica first flamed up (and Monica pooh-poohted'ed it). Would Bud/Pablo have mentioned it in this context if it weren't directly relevant to Monica's situation. Maybe

Only Paul knows for sure.

Dave wrote:

ActionKermit wrote:ud says that titans are able to wield astral fire. There's nothing on record, as far as I know, that says that titans are able to regenerate in the way that Monica does. Wapsiverse titans may well be immortal (non-aging) but they may or may not be effectively unkillable (as a class).

Ummm, Epimetheus, for one, is apparently unkillable.

Granted, his unkillability is different from Monica's, as he doesn't remember surviving being shot in the head, nor that he was, nor even that he is Epimetheus. but...

===================

And his brother survived being chained up and having his liver eaten by a honkin' big eagle every day.

Dave wrote:

ActionKermit wrote:Only Paul knows for sure.

yeah, this is one that even Hanoi doesn't know...