Wapsi Square Forum

GlytchMeister wrote:It didn’t get past testing, though, because it was so effective. They tried to test it on something like a “Nuketown”, but the bats also found homes in the actual military base and set fires there, too.

Headline of the hour: "Military strategists toasted by their own batards."

(grins, ducks, runs like hell)

Well, Sir, the good news is that our test caused even more destruction than we ever thought possible.

The bad news is, we need to build ourselves a new base...

For those who wonder where that reference came from, being "Hoist by his own petard" refers to a 16th Century weapon that often blew up taking it's user with it.

Here's an interesting quote, from my wallpaper changer:
(Remember, as with all generalizations, there usually are exceptions...)

“Country people tend to consider that they have a corner on righteousness and to distrust most manifestations of cleverness, while people in the city are leery of righteousness but ascribe to themselves all manner of cleverness.” - Edward Hoagland

GlytchMeister wrote:Bats have a rather impressive ability to find their way into hard to reach places that also happen to be rather flammable. There was a weapon being developed durin WWII I believe that took advantage of this. A bat firebomb.

Take a few hundred bats and refrigerate them to make them hibernate. Strap little timed napalm or phosphorus charges to them. Pack em into a cozy lil multi-chambered container open to the air, fitted with a parachute. Pack that into a bomb shell that would split open at moderate altitude.

As the bats slowly drifted down on their parachute, they’d warm up, come out of hibernation, and fly down into the target city, roosting in eaves and walls and attics and whatnot come morning. Then, once they’re all probably asleep, the timers set off the fire charges and start fires all over the city. A few such bombs could actually set so much stuff on Fire it could make a firestorm, complete with whirls and a pyrocumulonimbus.

It didn’t get past testing, though, because it was so effective. They tried to test it on something like a “Nuketown”, but the bats also found homes in the actual military base and set fires there, too.

I used to know (he died years ago) one of the guys who helped run some of those tests.

The idea came from a guy who was a friend of Eleanor Roosevelt's, and that connection combined with his actually having come up with other plausible if weird ideas in the past meant that his idea got more attention than it might otherwise have received. It was passed on to several leading animal behaviourists and demolitions experts, who enthusiastically passed on the idea as being well worth development.

It was slow work, though, because it was totally unlike anything that had ever been done before. The incendiaries were easy enough, since little celluloid napalm bombs had been around for decades. These were attached by strings to little clips that were clipped to the chests of the bats. The bats were supposed to fly into the eaves of houses or whatever in Japan (it wouldn't work so well in European cities), and then gnaw through the string so that the bombs dropped into some nice flammable crannies. The bombs would then ignite when the acid timers in them went off.

The two biggest problems were the handling of and the deploying of the bats. To make it possible for the bats to be loaded up and packed into the cardboard bomb canisters, they had to be chilled to the point that they hibernated. Getting the timing on the hibernation just right was difficult. At first, they didn't give the bats enough time to wake up before deployment, and they all just dropped to the ground still asleep. Then they gave the bats too much time, and the bats woke up early, escaped, and set fire to some buildings that were under construction for the new military base that was being made. They also had problems getting the bat-deployment canisters to open properly.

Everybody pretty much agreed that the idea sounded crazy yet had a lot of potential, but they were still trying to work out some of the kinks in the system when a certain totally different secret weapon became a more immediately available method to bring the Japanese to submission. . .which it did.

There were other, less rational ideas for animal-guided munitions. The cat-bomb was perhaps the worst. The idea did have an almost sort-of logic to it: cats hate being dumped into water, and would try to avoid it if possible. The completely obvious follow-up to this fact is that if you took a bomb, strapped a cat to it, gave the cat control over the bomb's steering mechanism, and then dropped the bomb somewhere over a ship, the cat would instinctively steer the bomb away from all of the open water and onto the ship, with catastrophic results to said ship. Unlike the bat idea, apparently everybody thought that this particular idea was stupid right from the start. But the guy who came up with it had connections, and so the military had to at least make a show of researching the idea before scrapping it. Unsurprisingly, it turns out that tossing a cat out of an airplane simply results in the cat either freaking out or passing out, and having a hysterical or catatonic steering mechanism doesn't do much good for a bomb.

The best (actually useful) animal machine was a Coast Guard experiment involving pigeons. They were trained to peck upon seeing yellow or orange objects at a distance. Three pigeons were then packed into an underbelly observation dome on an aircraft so they could see the ground, or rather ocean, below. The dome was divided into three sections - right, left, and aft. When the pigeon saw a orange or yellow raft or life vest, it would peck, and the pilot would see lights on the console. They would steer right or left as needed, and when they over flew the target, the aft pigeon would peck, letting them know to turn around. It worked, but the animal types objected, and then there were the logistics of it all. Great results, lousy mechanics.

My favourite screwy-weapon-that-ought-have-worked was British - a four barreled (i think) device that used heavy springs to launch beer bottles filled with a mixture of liquid rubber/rubber cement and something - phosphorus? - that would ignite spontaneously.

When the bottles hit hard surfaces they would smash, the stuff would ignite on contact with air, and the rubber cement would burn and cling.

The idea was that the fact that it used springs would conserve powder, and there were plenty of factories producing beer bottles in the British Isles.

The problem turned out to be that civilian beer bottle quality control was not particularly good or consistent, and a non-negligible percentage of them would break inside the weapon when the spring launched them.

This made them rather unpopular with the guy who was supposed to use the thing, and at least equally as unpopular with the other guys in his unit.

The SOE's rat bombs proved to be surprisingly effective in an unintended way. Only one batch was made, and it was discovered and confiscated by the Germans. The whole project was cancelled. But the Germans ended up being so unnerved by the idea that they expended a huge amount of resources trying to secure their facilities against rat bomb attacks. The SOE chalked it up as a win, since the Allies managed to waste so much of the Germans' time and effort for so little Allied cost.

AnotherFairportfan wrote:My favourite screwy-weapon-that-ought-have-worked was British - a four barreled (i think) device that used heavy springs to launch beer bottles filled with a mixture of liquid rubber/rubber cement and something - phosphorus? - that would ignite spontaneously.

When the bottles hit hard surfaces they would smash, the stuff would ignite on contact with air, and the rubber cement would burn and cling.

The idea was that the fact that it used springs would conserve powder, and there were plenty of factories producing beer bottles in the British Isles.

The problem turned out to be that civilian beer bottle quality control was not particularly good or consistent, and a non-negligible percentage of them would break inside the weapon when the spring launched them.

This made them rather unpopular with the guy who was supposed to use the thing, and at least equally as unpopular with the other guys in his unit.

Yeah, a lot of the ideas that they rushed into trials or even production when they were expecting a Nazi invasion were. . .a bit rough around the edges. The sticky bombs that tended to stick to the user, the concrete pillboxes on wheels, and so on did actually have some utility, but it was compensated for by the huge flaws. But desperate times called for totally bonkers measures.

Catawampus wrote:The SOE's rat bombs proved to be surprisingly effective in an unintended way. Only one batch was made, and it was discovered and confiscated by the Germans. The whole project was cancelled. But the Germans ended up being so unnerved by the idea that they expended a huge amount of resources trying to secure their facilities against rat bomb attacks. The SOE chalked it up as a win, since the Allies managed to waste so much of the Germans' time and effort for so little Allied cost.

I'm reminded of Eric Frank Russell's SF novel "Wasp". It's the story of a human agent, surgically modified to pass as a Sirian humanoid, dropped onto a Sirian planet in wartime. His solo mission: use small-scale sabotage, trickery, and propaganda to mislead the Sirians into over-reacting against "subversion" and a nonexistent "invasion", tying up massive amounts of manpower and resources.

A lot of the tricks that the protagonist used, were ones that Russell and his peers in the US military had dreamed up for possible use against the Japanese during World War II (the Sirians are portrayed as an obvious play/parody on stereotypes of the Japanese during that war).

One of the major aspects of war is logistics. You can't just rush a fighting force to the scene, you have to support them once they're there. So anything you can do to disrupt or waste enemy resources is to your advantage.

The famous Dam Busters mission not only knocked out electricity for many factories and did enormous flood damage, the aftermath directly affected the Normandy invasion. The manpower and resources involved in repairing the dams took away workers, steel, and concrete from building the Atlantic Wall.

Hitler's meddling by the desire for bigger and better led to stupid projects like the Panser VIII MAUS tank, twice the size of a Tiger with an 5" / 128mm gun. A couple testers were built, at the expense of engineers, factory time, and 188 tons of resources to make a motorized blob that couldn't cross unprepared bridges or move fast enough to get out of the way. Not big enough for the German Ego you say? Why, let's crank out the Landkreuzer P.1000 Ratte! (Rats are bigger than mice, you see). And a svelte 1000 tons, it sported a twin gun 8" Cruiser (yes, navy cruiser ship thing) on six tracks and a crew of 2-3 dozen of Germany's finest to load the damn cannons, AND operate the Anti-Aircraft Battery On The Back End Of This Beast! Because oh, you know, passing aircraft just might see a huge iron box the size of a small apartment building plodding along and decide to shoot at it. Better make that TWO anti-aircraft batteries.

Ok, maybe this would have made a nice portable siege weapon but you probably want it to move faster than 10 mph. Hey! There's an idea? Just skip the armor, put railway wheels on the thing, and hope we can go through tunnels! Of course we have to hide it after spending the day shooting multi ton shells at the nearby (20+ miles) city, one per hour, so let's make our own tunnel to put it in. And hope the bombers don't seal the entrance. Drat. Maybe we need more bombers instead.

Back in my Air Force days, there were tons of professional reading material available, and one was a military review sort of thing, dealing with older conflicts with modern methods. One paper accounted for the Eastern Front vs Hitler. Hitler kept sending more tanks instead of spare parts (logistics again). The author calculated that 30 or more tanks could have been serviced for battle for the cost of producing one replacement tank. And the replacements were pretty useless quickly because the Same Parts were wearing out - seals, bearing, filters and so on. The comparison was the post Pearl Harbor response of sending a squadron (7 aircraft) of B-17 bombers to Australia to help defend the north from Japanese held parts of Borneo. By the time they got there, one aircraft was unserviceable. It was promptly cannibalized for the rest. More aircraft dropped out each day, so after a week or so of missions, the squadron was grounded. It was another month before the (ship borne) spare parts arrived. Logistics fail.

My WWII veteran father told me of a great but apocryphal story of the Boo-boo Maru. War planners knew of the Japanese warship buildup prior to Dec 41, and allowed a set of plans be captured by the Japanese. And, boy what a battle ship - 20" guns? These were 24". 14 Inch thick armor? How about 22 inches. Four propellers, try 5! And on and on, all of it larger and non-standard from what the Imperial Navy had or could make. The plans were carefully reviewed, then put into actions. More than two years later the ship was ready for launch - the most powerful war wagon on the planet, courtesy the USA. Speeches, Flags, Ceremony, and lo -- it slid down the ways, splashed into the water, bobbed, and rolled over.

Ho ho! Great idea if it actually happened, but hey - that's how you fight a war. Courtesy Sun-Tsu, the order of battle is:

• - Attack the plan
  - Attack the man
  - Attack the alliances
  - Attack the resources
  - Attack the army in the field
  - Attack the cities

Resources is logistics. No logistics, no army in the field.

This reminds me of a book I saw on a bookstore shelf exactly and only once, called "My Tank is Fight!". It was about various crazy weapons from around the world during WWII, and some didn't get past the initial planning stages because of various reasons, though a couple would actually have worked, if the war hadn't ended when it did.

Atomic wrote:Back in my Air Force days, there were tons of professional reading material available, and one was a military review sort of thing, dealing with older conflicts with modern methods. One paper accounted for the Eastern Front vs Hitler. Hitler kept sending more tanks instead of spare parts (logistics again). The author calculated that 30 or more tanks could have been serviced for battle for the cost of producing one replacement tank. And the replacements were pretty useless quickly because the Same Parts were wearing out - seals, bearing, filters and so on.

The Germans had a major problem with replacement parts, though, because of the complete lack of homogeneity in their motor pool. Germany's famous for its industrial capacity, sure, but remember that it was just coming out of the restrictions put in place by the Versailles Treaty. When they started charging off across parts of Europe, they didn't really have all that much in the way of mechanised vehicles. When they invaded Poland, a lot of their motor pool came from captured Czech vehicles. When they invaded France, it was with lots of Czech and Polish vehicles. And when they invaded Russia, it was with lots of Czech, Polish, French, and British vehicles, along with whatever their allies happened to bring along to the party. It was bad enough for their armoured units, but their transport units were in even worse of a mish-mash (and when the logistics of your logistics system is messed up, then you know that you're in trouble). Part of the idea of producing lots of new vehicles was to give them a chance to actually have standardised parts, making logistics much easier.

Ha! Going to war with lots of captured vehicles -- hadn't been aware of that one, but what a headache!

I read something similar about the Sir Francis Drake vs the Spanish Armada. While vastly outnumbered, Drake had the advantage of having well trained sailors and well stocked ships with similar type cannon. It seems the Spaniards had been planning a land invasion, so their ships were manned mainly with Soldiers, and they had many types of cannon, expecting to dismount them when they landed. It seemed the English could reload and fire in about 5-6 minutes per broadside, but the Spanish struggled to return fire every 30-40 minutes due to sorting out what shot went to which cannon and finding the gunners among the mass of soldiers aboard. I really doubt they were that stupid and ill trained, but that was the claim.

(I'm germinating a flik-song in my head; "we are the Gingerbread Cookie-Cutter Men & we are here, to Dominate you...)

You know... If you actually think about it, most of the reasons aliens invade in movies or whatever are actually rather pointless. Independence Day? It would have been much easier if they just stuck to mining the asteroid belt and uninhabited planets. Battle: Los Angeles? They could have been mining the Kuiper belt, and we'd never notice.

If aliens want slave labor, I find it hard to believe they couldn't build robots to do the work. We've got roombas, and haven't even set foot on any other planets (unless you're a conspiracy theorist). They have interstellar travel. I'm pretty sure robots to clean, build, or dig are well within their capabilities.

The main one that makes sense to me is a habitable planet that doesn’t need terraforming.

GlytchMeister wrote:The main one that makes sense to me is a habitable planet that doesn’t need terraforming.

Or on a slighly more grisly note - one that requires no terraforming and provides billions of head of two-legged cattle.

"Never meddle in the affairs of aliens, for you are crunchy and good with blzargh dressing."

I thought we weren’t really all that nutritious. Though, we have lots of four-legged cattle. They might kill us off and take our livestock. Or just take the planet and keep a bare minimum of aliens on-planet to keep the farms going. Screw the cities, they have a mothership to feed. Burn down the human cities and turn them back into farmland.

While they probably have algal protein all figured out, they might have a cultural desire for actual meat. Or maybe they just get tired of algal protein after a while. Earth would be a gourmet food production planet.

Gordon Ramsay might survive, though.