Wapsi Square Forum

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:16 pm**

Chain shot was pretty much an anti-personnel round, though it would chew up masts and rigging.

Less expensive anti-personnel rounds were grapeshot (six to twelve balls in a bag) or canister (even smaller balls - musket-ball size in a tin or brass canister - maybe with a wooden sabot).

Incidentally - referring to a gun as an "eight-pounder" or whatever doesn't necessarily indicate a limit on what weight the gun could throw, but rather is the weight of a solid ball that fits the gun, just as "twelve gauge" or "twenty gauge" in shotguns refers to the number of slugs for a gun that size that could be cast from a pound of lead

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:46 pm**

Just Old Al wrote:You ever make it to Boston, mate, let me know and we will go and see "Old ironsides". I work less than a mile from it.

Been there, bought challenge coins on the deck! Gave one to a navy man back at my work and he was most appreciative.

I visited the Constitution in July 2013, something I had been wanting to do for a very long time. Unfortunately, it was friggin' hot that day. Hit 101 F as I recall. Hotter than Texas it was! So they were not allowing anyone below deck due to the heat and lack of ventilation. I will be back one day, potentially this June. If it works out, I will take you up on your offer!

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Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:53 pm**

Cutty Sark was quite nice, when i toured her in 1992.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:00 pm**

louisxiv wrote:. . .though M&C is pretty good at hinting the real threat was wood splinters from ball impacts on the structure of the ship.

Yeah, that sort of thing tends to be a real common source of injury even in modern times, with or without any wood around. I knew a guy who worked for the British DMWD in the Second World War, and one task that they had to take on was armour for ships. They had been using concrete blocks to protect the superstructures from airplane fire and the like, but it turned out that the concrete actually made things even worse because the bullets would hit it and send swarms of pointy shards of concrete flying randomly all over. Basically it turned what would be individual bullet strikes into little mini claymore mines. Made the bridge crews rather uncomfortable. The DMWD eventually worked out a way to make a sort of resin brick with little bits of stone in it, that would absorb and stop the whole bullet rather than shattering all over. The same principle is used on land for concrete fortifications, which is why you'll see sandbags piled up around parts of concrete bunkers.

That's also sort of how a lot of current anti-armour rounds work: the projectile itself isn't the main danger, but rather the spray of (sometimes molten) pieces of the vehicle itself. That's part of why anti-armour rounds are often not very effective against targets that aren't heavily armoured, what with there not being much of anything in the path of the projectile to be turned into extra projectiles.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:02 pm**

In a concrete fortification, the purpose of the concrete is to hold the dirt up . . . Endicott-period fortifications (US) and their counterparts elsewhere in the world were normally covered with dry sand, frequently with burster plates (also concrete) bedded within the sand. Small shells would lodge in the sand and burst harmlessly . . . larger ones would strike the burster plate firmly enough to initiate the fuse as they passed through the burster plate, then would detonate in the sand layer(s) beneath the burster plate(s), but before reaching the protected installation.

Some of the reasons for using concrete : comparatively inexpensive, easy to place, to form, good strength, good decay and corrosion resistance . . . the list went on.

And the basic principles are still in use!

--FreeFlier

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:11 pm**

Catawampus wrote:That's also sort of how a lot of current anti-armour rounds work: the projectile itself isn't the main danger, but rather the spray of (sometimes molten) pieces of the vehicle itself. That's part of why anti-armour rounds are often not very effective against targets that aren't heavily armoured, what with there not being much of anything in the path of the projectile to be turned into extra projectiles.

Depleted uranium is effective against almost anything with a thickish steel skin - its mass punches through, and since uranium is about as flammable as magnesium, the friction sets it on fire, more often than not.

At which time, the crew finds themselves with a supersonic several-thousand degree fireball bouncing around inside with them, which will, on occasion, spoil your whole day.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:12 am**

Not to mention the fact that depleted uranium is toxic and kinda radioactive. So... Supersonic several-thousand degree fireball bouncing around creating poison smoke and maybe irradiating you.

That will spoil your day a little more than occasionally. I'd be just a bit miffed if I got into a situation like that.

(I probably wouldn't get more than miffed. I'd die before I had a chance to get any more displeased than miffed. I might end up beside myself, but that's due more to a literal interpretation and a judicious application of ludicrous gibs than me becoming rankled)

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:23 am**

GlytchMeister wrote:Not to mention the fact that depleted uranium is toxic and kinda radioactive. So... Supersonic several-thousand degree fireball bouncing around creating poison smoke and maybe irradiating you.

Not very radioactive - that's the "depleted" part.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:06 am**

AnotherFairportfan wrote:
GlytchMeister wrote:Not to mention the fact that depleted uranium is toxic and kinda radioactive. So... Supersonic several-thousand degree fireball bouncing around creating poison smoke and maybe irradiating you.
Not very radioactive - that's the "depleted" part.

It is still radioactive enough to kill you, as several middle east metal salvagers have already discovered. It is simply too depleted to use as fuel or make a bomb- still deadly.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:37 am**

"Not very radioactive" is still something I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. It's gotta be at least "almost not radioactive at all" or "very carefully medically controlled" if I am to have anything to do with it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:50 am**

Sgt. Howard wrote:[It is still radioactive enough to kill you, as several middle east metal salvagers have already discovered. It is simply too depleted to use as fuel or make a bomb- still deadly.

"Deadly" does not imply "radioactive enough to kill". Radiation isn't the big danger from depleted uranium.

Fully refined uranium actually is only weakly radioactive, regardless of whether it is depleted (U238) or natural (mostly U238, .7% U235, a trace of U234). These isotopes have very long half lives, and the radiation they emit is fairly weak. U238 is an alpha emitter, and alphas have so little penetrating power they can be stopped by a sheet of paper or a few inches of air.

Most of the radiation that comes from natural uranium ore isn't from the uranium itself... it is from the "daughter" isotopes of radium, radon, bismuth, and lead which have built up over thousand of years of radioactive decay... and these are removed when uranium is refined.

In the short term (years to decades) the big danger with depleted uranium is that uranium is a heavy metal, and like a great many heavy metals it is chemically toxic... just like lead, just like cadmium, just like thallium. A few tens of milligrams of soluble uranium compounds is enough to cause kidney failure. There's a long list of other medical problems that uranium poisoning can cause.

The radiation hazard from it is more of a long-term danger, and seems to be worst if the dust is inhaled (increased risk of lung cancer). Because alpha particles have so little penetrating power, radiation damage is local to wherever the uranium ended up in the body.

In the long term (centuries to millennia) the depleted-uranium residue spread around the Middle East will grow more radioactive, as the decay daughter isotopes build back up to secular equilibrium.

The same thing will happen to any of those bright-orange Fiestaware plates and saucers you might have inherited from your grandparents... they are slightly radioactive now, but in 10,000 years they'll be quite a bit "hotter".

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:56 am**

Sgt. Howard wrote:
AnotherFairportfan wrote:
GlytchMeister wrote:Not to mention the fact that depleted uranium is toxic and kinda radioactive. So... Supersonic several-thousand degree fireball bouncing around creating poison smoke and maybe irradiating you.
Not very radioactive - that's the "depleted" part.
It is still radioactive enough to kill you, as several middle east metal salvagers have already discovered. It is simply too depleted to use as fuel or make a bomb- still deadly.

Not really - civilian uses of the stuff include radiation shielding. The depleted uranium used in munitions has less radioactivity than naturally-occurring uranium; about 60%.

Quoting from the Wikipedia "Depleted Uranium" article:

The use of DU in munitions is controversial because of concerns about potential long-term health effects. Normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, heart, and numerous other systems can be affected by exposure to uranium, a toxic metal. It is only weakly radioactive because of its long radioactive half-life (4.468 billion years for uranium-238, 700 million years for uranium-235; or 1 part per million every 6446 and 1010 years, respectively). The biological half-life (the average time it takes for the human body to eliminate half the amount in the body) for uranium is about 15 days. The aerosol or spallation frangible powder produced by impact and combustion of depleted uranium munitions can potentially contaminate wide areas around the impact sites, leading to possible inhalation by human beings.

Civilian uses for the stuff include

Shielding in industrial radiography cameras: Industrial radiography cameras include a very high activity gamma radiation source (typically Ir-192 with an activity above 10 TBq). Depleted uranium is often used in the cameras as a shield to protect individuals from the gamma source. Typically, the uranium shield is supported and enclosed in polyurethane foam for thermal, mechanical and oxidation protection.

Coloring in consumer products: Consumer product uses have included incorporation into dental porcelain, used for false teeth to simulate the fluorescence of natural teeth, and uranium-bearing reagents used in chemistry laboratories (e.g. uranyl acetate, used in analytical chemistry and as a stain in electron microscopy). Uranium (both depleted uranium and natural uranium) was widely used as a coloring matter for porcelain and glass in the 19th and early-to-mid-20th century. The practice was largely discontinued in the late 20th century. In 1999, concentrations of 10% depleted uranium were being used in "jaune no.17" a yellow enamel powder that was being produced in France by Cristallerie de Saint-Paul, a manufacturer of enamel pigments. The depleted uranium used in the powder was sold by Cogéma's Pierrelatte facility. In February 2000, Cogema discontinued the sale of depleted uranium to producers of enamel and glass.

Trim weights in aircraft: Aircraft that contain depleted uranium trim weights for stabilizing wings and control surfaces (such as the Boeing 747–100) may contain between 400 to 1,500 kg of DU. This application is controversial because the DU might enter the environment if the aircraft crashes. The metal can also oxidize to a fine powder in a fire. Its use has been phased out in many newer aircraft. Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas discontinued using DU counterweights in the 1980s. Depleted uranium was released during the crash of El Al Flight 1862 on 4 October 1992, in which 152 kg was lost, but a case study concluded that there was no evidence to link depleted uranium from the plane to any health problems.[ Counterweights manufactured with cadmium plating are considered non-hazardous while the plating is intact.

Sailboat keel: Pen Duick VI, a boat designed by André Mauric and used for racing, was equipped with a keel in depleted uranium. The benefit is that, due to the very high density of uranium, the keel could be thinner for a given weight, and so have less resistance than a normal keel. It was later replaced by a standard lead keel.

Anyone who had problems from depleted uranium munitions had them from chemical poisoning:

Chemical toxicity: The chemical toxicity of depleted uranium is about a million times greater in vitro than its radiological hazard, with the kidney considered to be the main target organ. Health effects of DU are determined by factors such as the extent of exposure and whether it was internal or external. Three main pathways exist by which internalization of uranium may occur: inhalation, ingestion, and embedded fragments or shrapnel contamination. Properties such as phase (e.g. particulate or gaseous), oxidation state (e.g. metallic or ceramic), and the solubility of uranium and its compounds influence their absorption, distribution, translocation, elimination and the resulting toxicity. For example, metallic uranium is less toxic compared to hexavalent uranium(VI) uranyl compounds such as uranium trioxide.

Depleted uranium is radioactive the way that there is cocaine in Coca-Cola: Not really, even the Coca-Cola formula still includes extracts from the coca plant, which has been processed to remove the cocaine (originally it wasn't processed that way), and depleted uranium is what's left after you extract the more highly-radioactive isotope.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:01 pm**

Dave wrote:
Sgt. Howard wrote:[It is still radioactive enough to kill you, as several middle east metal salvagers have already discovered. It is simply too depleted to use as fuel or make a bomb- still deadly.
"Deadly" does not imply "radioactive enough to kill". Radiation isn't the big danger from depleted uranium.

You got in ahead of me, because i got didactic.

The same thing will happen to any of those bright-orange Fiestaware plates and saucers you might have inherited from your grandparents... they are slightly radioactive now, but in 10,000 years they'll be quite a bit "hotter".

Given what we know about the chemical hazards of the stuff, i wonder if i'd want to eat off Fiestaware on a long-term basis...

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:12 pm**

AnotherFairportfan wrote:Given what we know about the chemical hazards of the stuff, i wonder if i'd want to eat off Fiestaware on a long-term basis...

Nope. It has both uranium oxide, and lead, in the glaze, and both can leach out into food (especially if the food is acidic).

It's safe enough as a decor/display item, but I don't believe any of the older Fiestaware of any color ought to be used for food storage or consumption. The same is true for many older pieces of glazed stoneware... they should be tested for lead before being used for food. The newer Fiestaware (since '86) is lead-free, and they stopped using uranium pigments in '72.

I've got a few nice pieces of the "radioactive orange" vintage Fiestaware out in the shed... they do "read" on a geiger counter or a scintillation probe, although not very strongly (roughly comparable to a radium/phosphor watch dial, for example).

(And as for drinking water from a Revigator - kids, don't try this at home. Or, for that matter, anywhere else.)

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:53 pm**

Dave wrote:
AnotherFairportfan wrote:(And as for drinking water from a Revigator - kids, don't try this at home. Or, for that matter, anywhere else.)

What?! why not? i was just gonna get a cool, revitalizing, drink from one after my shoe fitting... you party pooper...

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:57 pm**

Dave wrote:
AnotherFairportfan wrote:Given what we know about the chemical hazards of the stuff, i wonder if i'd want to eat off Fiestaware on a long-term basis...
Nope. It has both uranium oxide, and lead, in the glaze, and both can leach out into food (especially if the food is acidic). . . .

Occasionally serving something like dry bread I wouldn't worry about, just wash it first.

Now serving sauerkraut every night . . .

--FreeFlier

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:32 am**

scantrontb wrote:
Dave wrote:(And as for drinking water from a Revigator - kids, don't try this at home. Or, for that matter, anywhere else.)
What?! why not? i was just gonna get a cool, revitalizing, drink from one after my shoe fitting... you party pooper...

FTFY.

I remember looking at the bones in my feet in one of those things at Sears when i was about Natalie's age, i think.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:54 am**

AnotherFairportfan wrote:
I remember looking at the bones in my feet in one of those things at Sears when i was about Natalie's age, i think.

And this is why the younger generation wonders how we've survived to our present age.

My military radio receivers have signal meters and such built into them - many of which have radium dials. They register a lot higher than your average watch dial - mostly because of size and pigment concentration. Long ago used to sit in front of them for hours at a time - though the Pall Malls I was chain-smoking probably did me more damage.

alan

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:42 pm**

In my 10 years working in the middle east, the most common barrier were Hesco walls. As the link explains, a 4-sided metal 'box' that you would fold open, place and fill with dirt or whatever. A two meter layer of soil is quite a round stopper.
They are easy to set up, and a bit of a pain to remove. So any casual attempts to circumvent them would complicate any attempts at mischief...

I have oddly fond memories of Hescos...

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:56 pm**

BTW, a usefully easy way to fill gabions (including Hescos) with evenly mixed materials is a ready-mix truck* . . . dump in the required quantities of materials, give it 100-200 turns to mix evenly, and set the chute to fill the positioned gabions. As long as you can get the truck within chute reach, you're golden. And it takes two people . . . one to run the truck, one to move the chute.

*colloquially known as a cement mixer.

The road crew my dad was on used to do that any time they needed more than a few gabions filled . . . and the concrete companies didn't mind very much, since they didn't have the risks of concrete, and it would actually clean the drums!

--FreeFlier

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