Wapsi Square Forum

AnotherFairportfan wrote:

Warrl wrote: Or, alternatively, declared to be adversaries of the new culture's gods.

Quite a lot of Judaeo-Christian names for Satan or various evil angels are variations - occasionally even direct copies - of the names of gods worshipped by the neighbors, or major prophets thereof. Ba'alzebub and Baphomet are two easy examples.

Heh. I read somewhere that a lot of the white man's names for American Indian tribes are basically mispronunciations/misunderstandings of "those evile bastards over there" in the language of the tribe just to their east...

And then there's the story (probably apocryphal, but amusing) that the kangaroo got its name because an early white explorer asked his native guide what the hell was THAT, and the guide replied "How the hell should I know, I'm not from around here", the first part of which was "ki'n'garoo" or words to that effect...

When a Hollywood radio studio took on the old 'Penny Dreadful' stories about the 'Lone Ranger', the original stories had no Indian Sidekick... THAT was invented so the Lone Ranger had someone to talk to on radio. A writer went to Arizona and asked some questions of the elders on a Navajo Reservation- ran the script by them and asked for Indian names... they never learned that in Navajo, 'Kimosabe' means 'stupid white boy' and 'Tonto' means 'fool'

They still laugh about it

Sgt. Howard wrote:They follow a prophecy that they will conquer all of Rome (read 'Western Powers, noticeably the US") IF we invade... Their 'Madi' will obliterate all infidels and bring the world under one Caliphate after they defeat 'Rome' on their land... this is why their tactics seem to BEG for an invasion. It is also why Obama won't do it- he ALSO knows of the prophecy, and believes it

No. This may be what they are touting, but they don't believe it. At least not the leaders. They're doing it for their own personal and political agenda, primarily to line their pockets with money and power that money can't buy. Maybe the ignorant rank-and-filer might believe that, I don't know, I haven't met any. If so, I pity them. Wouldn't be the first time in recorded history that people were lied to in order to form an army to go invade someone for someone else's greed. Not by a long straw.

Sgt. Howard wrote:When a Hollywood radio studio took on the old 'Penny Dreadful' stories about the 'Lone Ranger', the original stories had no Indian Sidekick... THAT was invented so the Lone Ranger had someone to talk to on radio. A writer went to Arizona and asked some questions of the elders on a Navajo Reservation- ran the script by them and asked for Indian names... they never learned that in Navajo, 'Kimosabe' means 'stupid white boy' and 'Tonto' means 'fool'

They still laugh about it

It's also a joke in the more common spanish.

Kimosabe is from 'Que no sabes' or 'I don't know'. Tonto translates directly into 'fool' or 'dumb'.

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:

Sgt. Howard wrote:They follow a prophecy that they will conquer all of Rome (read 'Western Powers, noticeably the US") IF we invade... Their 'Madi' will obliterate all infidels and bring the world under one Caliphate after they defeat 'Rome' on their land... this is why their tactics seem to BEG for an invasion. It is also why Obama won't do it- he ALSO knows of the prophecy, and believes it

No. This may be what they are touting, but they don't believe it. At least not the leaders. They're doing it for their own personal and political agenda, primarily to line their pockets with money and power that money can't buy. Maybe the ignorant rank-and-filer might believe that, I don't know, I haven't met any. If so, I pity them. Wouldn't be the first time in recorded history that people were lied to in order to form an army to go invade someone for someone else's greed. Not by a long straw.

That the leaders believe the prophesy is up for grabs- but the rank-and-file buy it wholesale- THAT's why suicide bombers can be had in such numbers

Sgt. Howard wrote:That the leaders believe the prophesy is up for grabs- but the rank-and-file buy it wholesale- THAT's why suicide bombers can be had in such numbers

Which is why the key to defeating them lies in education of the local population so they don't fall for the lies. Which the terrorist organizations darn well know, at least the upper echelons, and why they tend to kill any schools that start cropping up.

Kill their ability to recruit and their finances, and they will wither on the vine.

Sgt. Howard wrote:

AnotherFairportfan wrote:

Warrl wrote: Or, alternatively, declared to be adversaries of the new culture's gods.

Quite a lot of Judaeo-Christian names for Satan or various evil angels are variations - occasionally even direct copies - of the names of gods worshipped by the neighbors, or major prophets thereof. Ba'alzebub and Baphomet are two easy examples.

Heh. I read somewhere that a lot of the white man's names for American Indian tribes are basically mispronunciations/misunderstandings of "those evile bastards over there" in the language of the tribe just to their east...

And then there's the story (probably apocryphal, but amusing) that the kangaroo got its name because an early white explorer asked his native guide what the hell was THAT, and the guide replied "How the hell should I know, I'm not from around here", the first part of which was "ki'n'garoo" or words to that effect...

When a Hollywood radio studio took on the old 'Penny Dreadful' stories about the 'Lone Ranger', the original stories had no Indian Sidekick... THAT was invented so the Lone Ranger had someone to talk to on radio. A writer went to Arizona and asked some questions of the elders on a Navajo Reservation- ran the script by them and asked for Indian names... they never learned that in Navajo, 'Kimosabe' means 'stupid white boy' and 'Tonto' means 'fool'

They still laugh about it

Actually, i'm pretty sure that Tonto was part of the Lone Ranger mythos from very early, when it originated from WXYZ in Detroit. Wikipedia says he was introduced in the eleventh episode - sine i think it was a daily program, that would be the first day of the third week.

Wikipedia says (and i'm pretty sure i've read this before):

He was named by James Jewell, who also came up with the term "Kemosabe" based on the name of a summer camp owned by his father-in-law in upstate Michigan. In the local native American language, "Tonto" meant "wild one."

======

WXYZ began another radio serial a few years later - The Green Hornet.

Britt Reid (the Hornet's secret identity) had often wondered, when he was younger, why his father had an almost life-size portrait of a masked man in Western clothing on a wall in their mansion

It seems his father - Dan Reid - was the Lone Ranger's nephew...

Gyrrakavian wrote:- Hades runs a kingdom of the dead in the underworld in Greek mythology (there are no current practitioners, thus "mythology").

I'm not a follower of Hades, (although he and Hephaestus were generally friendly) but I do follow some of the Greek gods, specifically Hephaestus, and the pre-Roman mountain goddess Ghisallo, whose followers resisted assimilation into the Roman pantheon and then Christianity until the 11th Century when She was declared a Madonna. Her rituals have been lost, but she was a protector of travellers, and when the Catholics rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic after WWII she was assigned as the patroness of cyclists. Her temple is now a shrine of bicycle racers and racing but as cyclists are just a sub-class of travellers she's still doing her thing, just on a world stage with a narrower class of followers. Besides Heph I also spend some time honoring his wife Aphrodite, goddess of Luuurrve and some of his relatives.

AnotherFairportfan wrote:

Warrl wrote: Or, alternatively, declared to be adversaries of the new culture's gods.

Quite a lot of Judaeo-Christian names for Satan or various evil angels are variations - occasionally even direct copies - of the names of gods worshipped by the neighbors, or major prophets thereof. Ba'alzebub and Baphomet are two easy examples.

Heh. I read somewhere that a lot of the white man's names for American Indian tribes are basically mispronunciations/misunderstandings of "those evile bastards over there" in the language of the tribe just to their east...

And then there's the story (probably apocryphal, but amusing) that the kangaroo got its name because an early white explorer asked his native guide what the hell was THAT, and the guide replied "How the hell should I know, I'm not from around here", the first part of which was "ki'n'garoo" or words to that effect...

I hadn't heard that one before.

Though on the note of English bastardizations of Native American tribe names, I've noticed that the "j" sound of the original language often gets conflated with a "ch" sound. Case in point "Cherokee", which also exemplifies a few other common flub-ups. The "r" should be an "l" or said with a roll (the latter being from the eastern dialect) as the Cherokee language doesn't actually have an r. Then there's the "k" which should be a "g". To be fair, syllables beginning with "g" except (ga) are pronounced almost as in English, but with a partial "k" sound. Like you're trying to say both consonants at the same time with more emphasis on the "g". The romanized spelling of Cherokee should actually be "Tselogi". The "ts" combo makes a "j" sound in the Cherokee language.

If memory serves "Wichita" is another example of the j -> ch conflation.

Opus the Poet wrote:

Gyrrakavian wrote:- Hades runs a kingdom of the dead in the underworld in Greek mythology (there are no current practitioners, thus "mythology").

I'm not a follower of Hades, (although he and Hephaestus were generally friendly) but I do follow some of the Greek gods, specifically Hephaestus, and the pre-Roman mountain goddess Ghisallo, whose followers resisted assimilation into the Roman pantheon and then Christianity until the 11th Century when She was declared a Madonna. Her rituals have been lost, but she was a protector of travellers, and when the Catholics rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic after WWII she was assigned as the patroness of cyclists. Her temple is now a shrine of bicycle racers and racing but as cyclists are just a sub-class of travellers she's still doing her thing, just on a world stage with a narrower class of followers. Besides Heph I also spend some time honoring his wife Aphrodite, goddess of Luuurrve and some of his relatives.

Right, sorry. I think you may have mentioned this before. Not sure.

"Since there's not a significant following of the Ancient Greek religion."

Not trying to belittle you or the (relatively) few others. It just doesn't legally count as a religion in `the States anymore.

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:In unfortunately related news, ISIS destroyed the Temple of Ba'al when they sacked Palmyra. One of the pieces of ancient history, destroyed by modern-day Gauls.

That is an insult to the Gauls, one of the most civilized peoples of Europe of their time. It would be much closer to the truth to say "modern-day Romans".

Warrl wrote:

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:In unfortunately related news, ISIS destroyed the Temple of Ba'al when they sacked Palmyra. One of the pieces of ancient history, destroyed by modern-day Gauls.

That is an insult to the Gauls, one of the most civilized peoples of Europe of their time. It would be much closer to the truth to say "modern-day Romans".

Actually, i suspect the original reference should have been "Goths"... They invaded Rome; the Gauls ... rather the reverse.

AnotherFairportfan wrote:

Warrl wrote:

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:In unfortunately related news, ISIS destroyed the Temple of Ba'al when they sacked Palmyra. One of the pieces of ancient history, destroyed by modern-day Gauls.

That is an insult to the Gauls, one of the most civilized peoples of Europe of their time. It would be much closer to the truth to say "modern-day Romans".

Actually, i suspect the original reference should have been "Goths"... They invaded Rome; the Gauls ... rather the reverse.

Quite correct. That's what I get for posting in sleep-dep

AnotherFairportfan wrote:

Warrl wrote:

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:In unfortunately related news, ISIS destroyed the Temple of Ba'al when they sacked Palmyra. One of the pieces of ancient history, destroyed by modern-day Gauls.

That is an insult to the Gauls, one of the most civilized peoples of Europe of their time. It would be much closer to the truth to say "modern-day Romans".

Actually, i suspect the original reference should have been "Goths"... They invaded Rome; the Gauls ... rather the reverse.

Possibly the Vandals, who were so destructive their tribal name lives on as a description of wanton destruction.

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:

Sgt. Howard wrote:They follow a prophecy that they will conquer all of Rome (read 'Western Powers, noticeably the US") IF we invade... Their 'Madi' will obliterate all infidels and bring the world under one Caliphate after they defeat 'Rome' on their land... this is why their tactics seem to BEG for an invasion. It is also why Obama won't do it- he ALSO knows of the prophecy, and believes it

No. This may be what they are touting, but they don't believe it. At least not the leaders. They're doing it for their own personal and political agenda, primarily to line their pockets with money and power that money can't buy. Maybe the ignorant rank-and-filer might believe that, I don't know, I haven't met any. If so, I pity them. Wouldn't be the first time in recorded history that people were lied to in order to form an army to go invade someone for someone else's greed. Not by a long straw.

Their top leaders almost certainly do sincerely believe it, and the majority of their foreign volunteers believe it. The ones who are more questionable are the locals who got caught up in it all: some of them may believe it, but I expect that a large number (perhaps the majority) probably just go through the motions to avoid takfir. The longer that they remain immersed in the whole apocalyptic Salafist culture, of course, the more likely that it will insinuate itself into their minds and they'll end up with more acceptance of it.

On the plus side, the fact that they truly believe this stuff means that they have basically no chance of remaining relevant for the long term.

It's kind of interesting that they equate Rome to "western powers/noticeably the US." A lot of the architecture in Washington DC is based heavily on ancient Roman (and I think some ancient Greek) architecture.

Well.

We wanted to be like Rome. Be carful what you wish for, I guess... We just might get it.

Opus the Poet wrote:

AnotherFairportfan wrote:Actually, i suspect the original reference should have been "Goths"... They invaded Rome; the Gauls ... rather the reverse.

Possibly the Vandals, who were so destructive their tribal name lives on as a description of wanton destruction.

Yep. Disabled damn near every pump in the western empire, they did.

GlytchMeister wrote:It's kind of interesting that they equate Rome to "western powers/noticeably the US."

It goes back to when the main power blocking Muslim advance into the north was the Byzantine Empire. "Byzantine Empire" is a modern term; back in their day, they were "the Eastern Roman Empire" or, since the western half tended to fade out a bit, often simply "the Roman Empire". The Muslims referred to the Byzantines as Rome, and to the Christians from further west (such as the actual inhabitants of Rome) as Franks.

Since the Byzantines ("Rome") were the most immediate Christian rivals of and threats to the Muslims, it became standard practice to refer to the overall threat of Christians as "Rome".

It's sort of like how many Americans refer to any and all Muslims as Arabs.

Catawampus wrote:

GlytchMeister wrote:It's kind of interesting that they equate Rome to "western powers/noticeably the US."

It goes back to when the main power blocking Muslim advance into the north was the Byzantine Empire. "Byzantine Empire" is a modern term; back in their day, they were "the Eastern Roman Empire" or, since the western half tended to fade out a bit, often simply "the Roman Empire". The Muslims referred to the Byzantines as Rome, and to the Christians from further west (such as the actual inhabitants of Rome) as Franks.

Since the Byzantines ("Rome") were the most immediate Christian rivals of and threats to the Muslims, it became standard practice to refer to the overall threat of Christians as "Rome".

It's sort of like how many Americans refer to any and all Muslims as Arabs.

Cool... I learned something new today! I already knew Byzantine Empire was the leftovers from when Rome split apart, I had no idea that whole thing would still be causing interesting things to happen nowadays.
Huh.
It's funny how we can draw so many parallels between what, at first glance, seem to be enemies. Imagine that. We're all humans.

GlytchMeister wrote:Cool... I learned something new today! I already knew Byzantine Empire was the leftovers from when Rome split apart, I had no idea that whole thing would still be causing interesting things to happen nowadays.
Huh.
It's funny how we can draw so many parallels between what, at first glance, seem to be enemies. Imagine that. We're all humans.

A very interesting read is Kay's "Sarantine Mosaic" duology ("Sailing To Sarantium" and "Lord Of Emperors"). It's an alternate-world fantasy, set in a very close analog of Byzantium in the days of Justinian. This was the time when Justinian planned, quite seriously, to attempt to reunite the Roman empire by re-conquering Italy and driving out the Ostrogoths.

Kay's story is told largely through the eyes of Crispin, a (western-empire) mosaicist who travels to Sarantium to help decorate the dome of the emperor's new sanctuary (analogous to the Hagia Sofia).

As to "interesting things to happen nowaday"... I've heard it opined that most of today's conflicts in the Middle East - specifically, the very bloody Sunni / Shia disputes - can be traced back very directly to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire roughly a century ago, and then for many more centuries going back from there. Both Christianity and Islam were internally fractured, almost from the moments of their births, and a lot of those fractures were and are thoroughly bloody.

Oh, yeah... Definitely. The whole mess between the three main abrahamic faiths and all of the little bits and groups within each of them has been an absolute endless well of conflict for thousands of years.

I've always thought of writing an alternate history of the world, where Rome got its s**t together and Constantine didn't convert... Thus resulting in the abrahamic faiths failing to stick to the wall.

Problem is, I'm not nearly a good enough political scientist, anthropologist, or historian to really make a good enough guess. But it is still a really interesting thought experiment I ponder at night when I can't sleep. There is much fun to be had in that mental simulation.