Wapsi Square Forum

Have to remember this is 10+ years in the past maybe after this the mundanes and the paras came to a better understanding about what is acceptable behavior from both sides.

Atomic wrote:Methinks Due Process is a bit strained here, not knowing the method(s) of assessing guilt.

Well, we're talking supernaturals; it's not unreasonable to think that they have supernatural means.

According to the fanon (I don't recall if it's canon or not) vampires have issues just entering a home of innocence uninvited - they can do it but it's painful and visibly apparent until they leave and clean themselves up. So if they enter and don't experience those problems, someone who lives in the home is guilty of a heinous crime. They could still need other methods to determine *which* resident(s) is/are guilty of *which* crime.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the organization has been tracing this "shadow government" for a while and has a detailed list of its members and their roles.

This should breed a whole bunch more paranoid people. People who will wonder when they might be considered guilty of a capital crime. One being who is judge, jury and executioner. That's way too much power to allow one individual. Para or human. Given a choice I would want such a creature gone, period. At least I would want some form of protection from them. Something like, oh I don't know, maybe weaponized black thorn? I'm beginning to think whoever was doing this thing has good reason to be doing it. It's the paras who are the paranoid ones. An overwhelming fear of black thorn being used against them is causing them to take measures way above and beyond.

And, placing all this in the hands of one murderous being, is never a good idea. I mean, what if she is wrong? What if they are all wrong and it's not the shadow government members? Or they are being forced to do what they are doing by higher ups? Who checks up on the killer? Who makes sure she is right?

The paras have an overwhelming fear of seven billion xenophobic humans, a warlike people who consume all of the natural resources on a planet and are so unaccepting of anything that is different from themselves they are more than willing to fight wars and commit genocide over things like superficial physical traits.

A human vs para war would be an extinction event. Every species of para that isn't inherently immortal would be hunted down and exterminated... And we humans can be clever in the worst of ways. I imagine we'd figure out a way to kill the god-like beings, too.

TheOtherOne wrote:This should breed a whole bunch more paranoid people. People who will wonder when they might be considered guilty of a capital crime. One being who is judge, jury and executioner. That's way too much power to allow one individual. Para or human. Given a choice I would want such a creature gone, period. At least I would want some form of protection from them. Something like, oh I don't know, maybe weaponized black thorn? I'm beginning to think whoever was doing this thing has good reason to be doing it. It's the paras who are the paranoid ones. An overwhelming fear of black thorn being used against them is causing them to take measures way above and beyond.

I would point out that it was apparently the humans who did the "judge, jury, and executioner" thing first. They seem to have shot up the lab (killing some number of guards) and sent assassins in a successful attempt to kill Atsali's parents... all, it seems, in an attempt to seize the blackthorn. No apparent due process or right of appeal for those who were executed.

Unfortunately, in this situation, it appears that parties on both sides have good reason to be paranoid. Humans fear the paras' powers. Paras fear the humans' overwhelming numbers.

That's the hell of these retaliation-driven tit-for-tat revenge battles. There's plenty of opportunity for atrocity and "righteous vengeance" on both sides. At some point, the question of "who shot first" becomes moot.

A similar thing happens in international "diplomacy". Classic threat planning says that you don't plan your defenses based on what the opponent does, or threatens to do - you do it based on what your opponent is capable of doing. You always plan for the worse. This helps reduce the risk that you'll be caught by surprise.

Unfortunately, this strategy quite rapidly leads to constant "arms races", "incident escalation", "preventive wars", and that sort of thing. The sneak-attack "cut down their whole organization with one overwhelming blow" idea becomes attractive... but it rarely works.

What we're seeing here is a nasty "preventive war" getting started. It could easily turn in the para/human version of the Cuban missile crisis... and that crisis arguably ended up with a single man (Vasili Arkhipov) stopping World War III from starting.

I don't know who would "win" in an all-out human/para war. I can imagine that a very large number of people (both humans and paras) would die.

No one would win.

It does seem strange to show this kind of backstory now.

Unless shit is going to hit the fan in our little Wapsi World soon. I don't know about anyone else, but after THAT kind of insanity I'd be developing means to counter it. Wouldn't be surprised if we see an Elder Fae try to do something similar in the future and have their head pop off.

GlytchMeister wrote:No one would win.

And (almost) everybody knows it.
The Paras are effectively a sovereign nation living on everybody's territory. As such, they act accordingly.
Some resent this because of their own need to feel safe, or at least in control, but this instance is a simple violation of an ongoing armistice.
As long as the Paras keep to their promise of maintaining a low profile, and they will continue to do so to preserve the benefits of social intercourse, incidents like this will be tolerated for the sake of peace, and the object lessons will continue to be sent.
But the incidents will, unfortunately, continue simply because of the nature of all life.
Life is of necessity opportunistic, and will inevitably explore every possible course of action.
Blood will be spilt, but the peace will be preserved.

Warrl wrote:Well, we're talking supernaturals; it's not unreasonable to think that they have supernatural means.

According to the fanon (I don't recall if it's canon or not) vampires have issues just entering a home of innocence uninvited - they can do it but it's painful and visibly apparent until they leave and clean themselves up. So if they enter and don't experience those problems, someone who lives in the home is guilty of a heinous crime. They could still need other methods to determine *which* resident(s) is/are guilty of *which* crime.

This is indeed canon.

JW, pefrhaps these agents are not MIB, but rather working for Queen Foxglove. Or they could be MIB on assignment to the Foxgloves.
Reference Deserved It 2014-08-06:

Calista wrote:Castela, the Fae that found you in the lab were my kingdom's Secret Service. They learned of humans who had found sentient Blackthorn and were experimenting with them. That's when the Royal Guard were ordered to get you out of there, Your discovery would be dangerous to the paranormal community.

It might be that the MIB found out about these experimenters (through Atsali's parents), and sent the Royal Guard - of whom I'm almost certain Lorraine is one - to extricate Castela from the incubation.

This does put an extra layer on the whole story between Atsali and Thana, of course...

I wonder if she's grimacing in pleasure or pain...

chaotik74 wrote:Well, no reason for humans to be paranoid about THESE people at ALL....

Paranoid? Sure.

Willing to attack and kill as part of some hopeless plot to create and control a living superweapon? That will get your head left on the Senate floor...

(I'd point out, the Shadow Government was doing the same thing the Lathians tried with the Chimera. I can perfectly understand the MiB responding to that sort of activity with EXTREME unhappiness.)

GlytchMeister wrote:The paras have an overwhelming fear of seven billion xenophobic humans, a warlike people who consume all of the natural resources on a planet and are so unaccepting of anything that is different from themselves they are more than willing to fight wars and commit genocide over things like superficial physical traits.

A human vs para war would be an extinction event. Every species of para that isn't inherently immortal would be hunted down and exterminated... And we humans can be clever in the worst of ways. I imagine we'd figure out a way to kill the god-like beings, too.

And we're back to Jin and the other GGG. The only one who knows spells that can affect them - that we know of - is Maya. All Golem and Chimera technology has been repressed and purged by the MiB and the Nu Gul, using Brandi as its stalking horse. Humans have nothing that could stop beings capable of cracking the Earth in two with their bare hands. And to start a war, as long as even one of the GGG is functional, would be suicide for humanity. The only possible way that could come about is if the people in charge didn't know about the GGG. And that ignorance... wouldn't last long...

And it wouldn't even take much. Bud showing up at the White House, taking Barry's basketball trophy and turning it into a compressed diamond.

jwhouk wrote:And it wouldn't even take much. Bud showing up at the White House, taking Barry's basketball trophy and turning it into a compressed diamond.

I would pay serious money to see that

eee wrote:I wonder if she's grimacing in pleasure or pain...

chaotik74 wrote:Well, no reason for humans to be paranoid about THESE people at ALL....

Paranoid? Sure.

Willing to attack and kill as part of some hopeless plot to create and control a living superweapon? That will get your head left on the Senate floor...

(I'd point out, the Shadow Government was doing the same thing the Lathians tried with the Chimera. I can perfectly understand the MiB responding to that sort of activity with EXTREME unhappiness.)

GlytchMeister wrote:The paras have an overwhelming fear of seven billion xenophobic humans, a warlike people who consume all of the natural resources on a planet and are so unaccepting of anything that is different from themselves they are more than willing to fight wars and commit genocide over things like superficial physical traits.

A human vs para war would be an extinction event. Every species of para that isn't inherently immortal would be hunted down and exterminated... And we humans can be clever in the worst of ways. I imagine we'd figure out a way to kill the god-like beings, too.

And we're back to Jin and the other GGG. The only one who knows spells that can affect them - that we know of - is Maya. All Golem and Chimera technology has been repressed and purged by the MiB and the Nu Gul, using Brandi as its stalking horse. Humans have nothing that could stop beings capable of cracking the Earth in two with their bare hands. And to start a war, as long as even one of the GGG is functional, would be suicide for humanity. The only possible way that could come about is if the people in charge didn't know about the GGG. And that ignorance... wouldn't last long...

I would point out that the assumption that the GGG would take a side in that conflict and that that side would be the one of the paras. Mayahuel and the golem girls were created from and in a way are human, just because they would be unlikely to side with the humans in a destructive capacity doesn't mean they would turn their powers against them. This is especially true if paras indulged in provocative, brutal and most importantly EXTREMELY PUBLIC actions such as killing senators and leaving there heads in congress, actions that would most likely simply feed ammunition to those who claim that the paras are vicious monsters. They are under no obligation to take a side and I have doubt they would be willing to use their powers in a massively destructive fashion in a manner similar to the Chimera.

EasyAI wrote: I would point out that the assumption that the GGG would take a side in that conflict and that that side would be the one of the paras. Mayahuel and the golem girls were created from and in a way are human, just because they would be unlikely to side with the humans in a destructive capacity doesn't mean they would turn their powers against them. This is especially true if paras indulged in provocative, brutal and most importantly EXTREMELY PUBLIC actions such as killing senators and leaving there heads in congress, actions that would most likely simply feed ammunition to those who claim that the paras are vicious monsters. They are under no obligation to take a side and I have doubt they would be willing to use their powers in a massively destructive fashion in a manner similar to the Chimera.

The Shadow Government were the ones engaging in provocative, brutal, and potentially disastrous actions by creating Castela, a creature designed to be deadly to the Fae; and then launching a massive, murderous attack on what appears to be an MiB facility to get her back. Putting the heads of those responsible on the Senate floor would be more a reminder to the government of the dangers than a provocation.

Also, keep in mind that at this time Jin WAS the head of the MiB. I doubt very much this would be done without her approval. And, from the sound of it, this is the second time the Senate chamber has become a charnel house. Apparently humans need lots of reminding. If paras started attacking humans in mass - Suzy's killing of killers doesn't count - I suspect Jin (and now Bud and Brandi) would have stepped in if the MiB were unable to put a stop to it. But GlytchMeister's scenario was a war of genocide launched by humanity on paras, and the assertion that that would be unstoppable. But as I pointed out, as long as one GGG is around, they trump any military force that can be brought to bear.

Looked up Foxglove. Its Digitalis. also means Folks Glove the stuff of Fae's clothing.

AmriloJim wrote:JW, pefrhaps these agents are not MIB, but rather working for Queen Foxglove. Or they could be MIB on assignment to the Foxgloves.
Reference Deserved It 2014-08-06:

Calista wrote:Castela, the Fae that found you in the lab were my kingdom's Secret Service. They learned of humans who had found sentient Blackthorn and were experimenting with them. That's when the Royal Guard were ordered to get you out of there, Your discovery would be dangerous to the paranormal community.

Now that is an interesting point . . . perhaps Lorraine has obtained legal death warrants from Her Most Lethal Majesty . . .

We know that it must have taken some time for Cassi to talk to "A'sawi" . . . so there should have been time for that.

And this "Senate" . . . U.S. Senate or shadow Senate?

--FreeFlier

FreeFlier wrote:

AmriloJim wrote:JW, pefrhaps these agents are not MIB, but rather working for Queen Foxglove. Or they could be MIB on assignment to the Foxgloves.
Reference Deserved It 2014-08-06:

Calista wrote:Castela, the Fae that found you in the lab were my kingdom's Secret Service. They learned of humans who had found sentient Blackthorn and were experimenting with them. That's when the Royal Guard were ordered to get you out of there, Your discovery would be dangerous to the paranormal community.

Now that is an interesting point . . . perhaps Lorraine has obtained legal death warrants from Her Most Lethal Majesty . . .

We know that it must have taken some time for Cassi to talk to "A'sawi" . . . so there should have been time for that.

And this "Senate" . . . U.S. Senate or shadow Senate?

--FreeFlier

"Were only that thou couldst to the current cesspool of that name..."

FreeFlier wrote:Now that is an interesting point . . . perhaps Lorraine has obtained legal death warrants from Her Most Lethal Majesty . . .

Letters of marque and reprisal? Heavy on the reprisal?