Wapsi Square Forum

zachariah wrote:I do find it interesting the Connie does not trust Monica! Shelly does trust Monica so why doesn't Connie? Makes you wonder doesn't it.

May be more along the lines of "trust to be right" rather than "trust to not do bad things".

OTOH, Connie may not trust Monica because she knows Monica has a temper and may not yet have learnt self-restraint - consider the tar.

zachariah wrote:Tina is right that Connie is no longer a demon.

Connie was never a demon - before her creation, there were demons. After her creation, there was just Connie, who is something entirely different from a demon.

I'd have to say it's obvious why she doesn't trust Monica: she's the Jaguar Girl.

Cats react in a feral manner, as was proven (and pointed out here) towards Tar. Add to that the Demon Shepherd thing, and that little "poiting" act that she pulled on Shelly and Bud into Nicollet Mall, and yeah, you can see where the "lack of trust" comes from.

An Irish/Mexican redheaded temper combined with the power of the Jaguar Girl and a powerful poiting ability could, indeed, be a scary thing.

(Adding in that Monica has issues from her time in the hospital that add to that hair trigger temper ...)

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Stupid auto-correct.

zachariah wrote:I thought Tina or Monica would be the most likely to intervene but they are too smart to do that. Tina is right that Connie is no longer a demon. But doesn't that imply Tina is no longer a demon either? So is Tina on the way to becoming an elemental or does it require the what ever Shelly did to Connie to create one.

Point: While an elemental is powerful within their element, we don't know Connie's element by the way. They would not be a strong as the Chimera, or a Titan. The Chimera power crosses elemental lines and are near titan level, if not equal. Bia could stop Connie if she wanted to. I suspect her desire to straighten things out is the reason she doesn't. Bia's youthful reset could also play a part in that as she is too surprised by the assault to respond, but I think she is choosing to not respond to Connie.

We are in for a lot of new information here shortly. Bia is about to start talking about why she is doing things and maybe even what her goal is. Just like when the girls finally were told about the calendar and that they had to fix it. I suspect their next mission briefing is about to occur.

Maybe Conscience's name is more appropriate than it seems. Perhaps Connie's element is morality, ethics, right and wrong. That isn't a traditional Element; but Connie isn't a traditional being. If so, then this 'fight' takes on new meaning. Bia has been manipulating people without regard to the costs to them for a LONG time; that kind of literally unconscionable behavior, pure force without morality or concern about consequences, would enrage an avatar of Ethics beyond restraint. This may be an allegorical fight: Bia has no conscience of her own, so she's being taken to task - and beaten up - by somebody else's. With the promise of more to come if she doesn't stick to the straight and narrow.

zachariah wrote:Tina is right that Connie is no longer a demon. But doesn't that imply Tina is no longer a demon either?

Not really. Both Tina and Connie started off as a collection of individual demons in a host human, and both underwent unusual changes, but the changes were totally different in nature.

With Connie, it appears that the individual demons all fused together--becoming one personality instead of each retaining their own--and gained a soul.

The demons in Tina are each still totally separate independent beings (who sometimes argue and go their own ways) who are having to "pilot the ship" due to the loss of a soul.

Connie is a completely new being with new personality acting in new ways, Tina is the original beings still as they were before but now having to act in new ways. Tina won't be something different from a collection of demons until her change becomes one of existence or essence rather than merely of situation.

eee wrote:

zachariah wrote:I thought Tina or Monica would be the most likely to intervene but they are too smart to do that. Tina is right that Connie is no longer a demon. But doesn't that imply Tina is no longer a demon either? So is Tina on the way to becoming an elemental or does it require the what ever Shelly did to Connie to create one.

Point: While an elemental is powerful within their element, we don't know Connie's element by the way. They would not be a strong as the Chimera, or a Titan. The Chimera power crosses elemental lines and are near titan level, if not equal. Bia could stop Connie if she wanted to. I suspect her desire to straighten things out is the reason she doesn't. Bia's youthful reset could also play a part in that as she is too surprised by the assault to respond, but I think she is choosing to not respond to Connie.

We are in for a lot of new information here shortly. Bia is about to start talking about why she is doing things and maybe even what her goal is. Just like when the girls finally were told about the calendar and that they had to fix it. I suspect their next mission briefing is about to occur.

Maybe Conscience's name is more appropriate than it seems. Perhaps Connie's element is morality, ethics, right and wrong. That isn't a traditional Element; but Connie isn't a traditional being. If so, then this 'fight' takes on new meaning. Bia has been manipulating people without regard to the costs to them for a LONG time; that kind of literally unconscionable behavior, pure force without morality or concern about consequences, would enrage an avatar of Ethics beyond restraint. This may be an allegorical fight: Bia has no conscience of her own, so she's being taken to task - and beaten up - by somebody else's. With the promise of more to come if she doesn't stick to the straight and narrow.

You do have a point. After all your conscience is supposed to make you feel bad when you do something you know is wrong. Connie just sped the process up for Bia when you think about it.

Yamara wrote: She would not exist if it were not Bia's abandonment of Shelly, and Shelly's yearning into the silence that forged her from beings that predate the universe, and at least one human soul. So no, Bia has no advantage in this fight. She literally can neither run nor hide.

So, Connie knows that Bia has returned to a state of innocence per Tina's statement, and Connie would not exist if not per Bia. So Connie is so upset over existing that she attacks the being most responsible for her existence, even though she knows Bia is innocent? Who exactly is the bad one here?

davids4250 wrote:So, Connie knows that Bia has returned to a state of innocence per Tina's statement, and Connie would not exist if not per Bia. So Connie is so upset over existing that she attacks the being most responsible for her existence, even though she knows Bia is innocent? Who exactly is the bad one here?

Still Bia. Connie is not attacking for being brought into existence but for the manipulative (and damaging) things that were done before and afterwards. IOW she's giving Bia the beatdown not because she created Connie indirectly, but because of the damage the events leading up to that creation caused. She's teaching force (Bia) restraint and consideration for others (Conscience).

davids4250 wrote:Who exactly is the bad one here?

According to whose definition of "good" and "bad"?

I do find Connie's statement that she trusts Tina to be an interesting addition to the mix.

Connie seemed to have some negative feelings about Tina, some time back... she made snarky remarks to Shelly about Tina needing/using push-up bras. Here, we see a different face of things.

The relationship between these two is interesting. They're "kin" in more ways than one. They're both demon "covens", more or less coalesced into single entities (in different fashions, both being apparently brand new to the demon society). And, the critical element in Connie's fusion and creation, seems to be the very same human soul that Tina lost when Tina 1.0 died in the "accident".

Connie seems to have a high degree of immunity adainst action by the sphinxes (due to the human soul in her mix) that Tina does not yet enjoy. Tina's been given additional "rope" by Phix, but how far does this actually free her? Tina may be undergoing further integration towards becoming a single being... but nobody knows much about what Tina 3.0 will be like.

Connie seems to have given up (never had) the immortality that her/Shelly's original flock of demons had possessed. Tina's body is aging and presumably mortal, and her coven of demons don't know if they're still immortal or are also fated to die.

So, there's plenty of room for complex, ambiguous feelings on both sides of this relationship... bonds of similarity, resentment/loss about Tina 1.0's soul, lots of uncertainty about the future, lots of shared questions about their pasts (neither remembers).

And now Bia arrives... another sharepoint in their history.

If it weren't for Bia's scheming, Conscience would not exist... Bia bore and then abandoned Shelly, and this led to Shelly's near-death and Connie's creation. It's even possible that Bia played a more direct role in the accident which killed Tina and created Connie... somebody persuaded Tina's and Shelly's demons to act as they did, we've never known who this was, and I suspect we may learn that it was Bia.

A lot of people paid some heavy prices here. If these events all flowed from Bia's plotting, then both Connie and Tina are strongly-enough moral to want Bia to have to fess up. They both "owe her their lives" but both seem to acknowedge the moral costs of their own creation.

Conscience is moral because... well, she's Conscience... seems to have been built thatbway... and Tina has been developing a good sense of human ethics by her own hard work.

These two are Weird Sisters for sure.

jwhouk wrote: and that little "poiting" act that she pulled on Shelly and Bud into Nicollet Mall, and yeah, you can see where the "lack of trust" comes from.

In Monica's defense remember that the poiting incident did occur just after Bud ripped Monica's heart out and she resurrected, she poited them as a warning to not do that again to her.

Why can I see Connie standing up after this, dusting herself off and looking at the rest of the gang and saying " Alright now, who's up for a game of volleyball?"

JSStryker wrote:Why can I see Connie standing up after this, dusting herself off and looking at the rest of the gang and saying " Alright now, who's up for a game of volleyball?"

Or, perhaps, a game of squash.

Dave wrote:Conscience is moral because... well, she's Conscience... seems to have been built thatbway... and Tina has been developing a good sense of human ethics by her own hard work.

These two are Weird Sisters for sure.

Hm! "I am the closest thing to the mythical Conscience..." So concepts of human relationships, being intangibles, are considered pleasant fictions, while Evil is a real, tangible, force.

Interesting take.

Yamara wrote:

Dave wrote:Conscience is moral because... well, she's Conscience... seems to have been built thatbway... and Tina has been developing a good sense of human ethics by her own hard work.

These two are Weird Sisters for sure.

Hm! "I am the closest thing to the mythical Conscience..." So concepts of human relationships, being intangibles, are considered pleasant fictions, while Evil is a real, tangible, force.

Interesting take.

I think it's more like most people don't have consciences, just a feeling that someone might be watching.

davids4250 wrote:

Yamara wrote: She would not exist if it were not (for) Bia's abandonment of Shelly, and Shelly's yearning into the silence that forged her from beings that predate the universe, and at least one human soul. So no, Bia has no advantage in this fight. She literally can neither run nor hide.

So, Connie knows that Bia has returned to a state of innocence per Tina's statement, and Connie would not exist if not per Bia. So Connie is so upset over existing that she attacks the being most responsible for her existence, even though she knows Bia is innocent? Who exactly is the bad one here?

Shelly's visionquest was entirely about finding answers about her mother.

Conscience came into existence as the culmination of that desperation on Shelly's part.

Therefore this is Connie's deepest instinct, her first instinct. Being an elemental, it is her prime instinct: Probing why something is done.

And Bia is all those answers: she is her prey. Someone Bia has to answer to.

If the answers elicited sympathy, Connie's reaction might be very different. Buuut, the answers aren't very sympathetic, are they.

Fairportfan wrote:

zachariah wrote:I do find it interesting the Connie does not trust Monica! Shelly does trust Monica so why doesn't Connie? Makes you wonder doesn't it.

May be more along the lines of "trust to be right" rather than "trust to not do bad things".

OTOH, Connie may not trust Monica because she knows Monica has a temper and may not yet have learnt self-restraint - consider the tar.

jwhouk wrote:I'd have to say it's obvious why she doesn't trust Monica: she's the Jaguar Girl.

Cats react in a feral manner, as was proven (and pointed out here) towards Tar. Add to that the Demon Shepherd thing, and that little "poiting" act that she pulled on Shelly and Bud into Nicollet Mall, and yeah, you can see where the "lack of trust" comes from.

Fairportfan wrote:An Irish/Mexican redheaded temper combined with the power of the Jaguar Girl and a powerful poiting ability could, indeed, be a scary thing.

(Adding in that Monica has issues from her time in the hospital that add to that hair trigger temper ...)

We know Monica isn't a wuss, so M's reticence here is partly that of a host who is watching a long-awaited guest get the Hulk treatment. She has no reason to like Bia, but she still wants her own answers out of her before she's driven away (or the island is destroyed. Again.)

I suspect Connie (who "is not evil") detects that M and Shelly could easily fall out over the fate of the Earth, since it is coming into their hands. Shelly is dangerous, but perhaps what Bia meant by the Time Forest having "removed her human side", was that her native human Evil has passed away over 80k years as a feral being.

M kills Evil, but she is nowhere near free of her own.

Until then, Connie has no qualms to be on her guard with Monica, and stay ready to do what must be done.

Dave wrote:I do find Connie's statement that she trusts Tina to be an interesting addition to the mix.

Connie seemed to have some negative feelings about Tina, some time back... she made snarky remarks to Shelly about Tina needing/using push-up bras. Here, we see a different face of things.

The relationship between these two is interesting. They're "kin" in more ways than one. They're both demon "covens", more or less coalesced into single entities (in different fashions, both being apparently brand new to the demon society). And, the critical element in Connie's fusion and creation, seems to be the very same human soul that Tina lost when Tina 1.0 died in the "accident".

Connie seems to have a high degree of immunity adainst action by the sphinxes (due to the human soul in her mix) that Tina does not yet enjoy. Tina's been given additional "rope" by Phix, but how far does this actually free her? Tina may be undergoing further integration towards becoming a single being... but nobody knows much about what Tina 3.0 will be like.

Connie seems to have given up (never had) the immortality that her/Shelly's original flock of demons had possessed. Tina's body is aging and presumably mortal, and her coven of demons don't know if they're still immortal or are also fated to die.

So, there's plenty of room for complex, ambiguous feelings on both sides of this relationship... bonds of similarity, resentment/loss about Tina 1.0's soul, lots of uncertainty about the future, lots of shared questions about their pasts (neither remembers).

And now Bia arrives... another sharepoint in their history.

If it weren't for Bia's scheming, Conscience would not exist... Bia bore and then abandoned Shelly, and this led to Shelly's near-death and Connie's creation. It's even possible that Bia played a more direct role in the accident which killed Tina and created Connie... somebody persuaded Tina's and Shelly's demons to act as they did, we've never known who this was, and I suspect we may learn that it was Bia.

A lot of people paid some heavy prices here. If these events all flowed from Bia's plotting, then both Connie and Tina are strongly-enough moral to want Bia to have to fess up. They both "owe her their lives" but both seem to acknowedge the moral costs of their own creation.

Conscience is moral because... well, she's Conscience... seems to have been built thatbway... and Tina has been developing a good sense of human ethics by her own hard work.

These two are Weird Sisters for sure.

Conscience has the same lifespan as Shelly. When Shelly dies, Conscience dies. When this revelation came, it was before Shelly knew she was a Titan/Sphinx hybrid, and was effectively immortal. So yes, Connie's existence is tied to Shelly's. But Shelly is going to live a long, long time, not the "four score and ten" she originally thought.

Edit; I think it's significant that Monica scares Tina now. M doesn't see herself as being much different, but Tina reads auras and knows a person's True Nature. She knows what Monica is truly capable of, even if Monica does not, and it scares the bejezus out of her. I guess it's kind of like having a Jaguar kitten as a friend. It's cute, loyal and fierce and it loves you. Then one day the damned thing grows up and while it's still loyal and still loves you, you realize that when it gets fierce it's not cute anymore. It's really kind of terrifying when you realize what would happen if that aggression were directed at you. Monica had that moment with Phix and Shelly and more or less came to terms with it, then got elevated to their level. Tina has watched her closest and most loyal friend become one of the most powerful beings on the planet with a sociopathic capacity for extreme violence. I love Monica to death, but if I were her friend, I'd be scared of her too.

You would never see Jiminy Cricket doing something like this!
Jiminy Lummox, on the other hand......

Fairportfan wrote:

Yamara wrote:

Dave wrote:Conscience is moral because... well, she's Conscience... seems to have been built thatbway... and Tina has been developing a good sense of human ethics by her own hard work.

These two are Weird Sisters for sure.

Hm! "I am the closest thing to the mythical Conscience..." So concepts of human relationships, being intangibles, are considered pleasant fictions, while Evil is a real, tangible, force.

Interesting take.

I think it's more like most people don't have consciences, just a feeling that someone might be watching.

Okay, but with Tina the issue is that humans shouldn't have to be forced to do the right thing.

If "conscience" is an optional/fictional state, akin to phlogiston being a placeholder for the actual chemistry of combustion, then it's remarkable that "evil" IS a real condition in the world, since it's usually ascribed to be a function of civilized behavior, ie its failure. (As in many religious contexts the placeholder for Stuff We Don't Like So Don't Do It.)

Rape and murder being distinct from sex and killing, even in the Wapsi universe.

Much has been on display about feral behavior, which is dangerous but distinct from human evil, which implies a foreknowledge and will to harm, ie responsibility for actions. So one would assume that non-evil behaviors, taken with even mild awareness, would be a concrete "taking responsibility". But if other social mores (honor, devotion, altruism, etc) are perceived as only useful fictions, not as concrete behavioral forces, I find it interesting that evil gets to have a distinct reality in the Wapsiverse.

Conscience and Whitewing appear to be constructs made in response to this apparent vacuum of active moral force.

Mortal Kombat! is what I heard when this throw-down started. Connie is getting her licks in to be sure, whether or not they are completely justified remains to be seen. I'm not too worried about Bia, after all, Phix knocked her through The LIBRARY wall with apparently no ill results. Okay, Bia is an innocent confirmed by Tina. She is apparently a little girl again maybe she remembers what she did and why she did it, but is she responsible for it now? WOG say she really is a little girl again and not faking it. She just got knocked around for something she didn't yet do, but did when she was an adult, which she currently isn't. This "timey whimey" age changing stuff makes ethics and morals do backflips.

I'm going to say that the visuals are very Marvel ous in their actions and I like them.