Wapsi Square Forum

"And those who spurred us on now sit in judgement of our wrong..."

Ok -- what a mess. Time for a POV review.


Tina knew Jet had a horrible problem and that Monica was able and strong enough to fix it, so the initiated M's visit to coveyspace.

Monica is aware of her powers and durability, but hasn't had much experience with using them other than reacting to Nudge's worst fear. Whatever training Phix provided "off camera" during the Kat/Atsali story is unknown.


It's a given that the Demons are an artifact of the mind, but when within the mind (coveyspace), that IS reality. So for Monica at least, this can't simply be dismissed as an illusion. Monica has physically endured and recovered from violent death twice -- when Bud ripped out her heart, and when Phix crushed her face. She is aware of the pain and that she can survive it. She is also aware that as Jaguar Girl, she instinctively focuses on her target's worst fear, and turns that against them. She is feral at that point, with (so far) little judgmental control of the situation. She reacts to the situation, not evaluates and responds to it. This is a danger point morally and physically, because what if she's wrong? The "What did I just do?" reaction.

It's that last part where Monica, the conscious being talking to her friend Tina, is getting the heeby-jeebies. On the one hand, she can't quite dismiss her actions as "turn about is fair play" by raping the rapist. But such is Jaguar logic/power. Her power. And she can't dismiss it because she was Raped, despite knowing her invulnerability to overall harm in any fashion. Shredded flesh and broken bones are one thing, brutal penetration to force submission is another -- and (per Guidance) that is exactly what Tar was trying to do -- dominate her, like it dominated most all the other demons. It wanted her to feel worthless to make her give up. Only Anger and Hate withstood the attack and could fight back.

And there's the clue. The Tar could be handled with Anger to keep focus and Hatred to do the deed. And as Jaguar, she gave measure for measure before destroying it with Astral fire.

So now the aftermath. How will she come to grips with being raped, with her joy at destroying her rapist, and her power to do so? It will take a lot of introspection to understand what has happened and put things in their place. Monica has known the joys of intimacy with Kevin, and that intimacy is what rapists violate to ruin and dominate. Being bitten, stung, or clawed by a creature is driven by it's desire to defend itself, or to eat. Being dominated by a being through physical, intimate harm is different because of the motivation behind those actions. She needs to find a way to put those motivations in their place, and distance herself from them. The madness of Tar was not her responsibility. It was her authority to end it.

DilyV wrote:Not good at all. How real is Covey-space? Was Monica truly physically raped? If the answer to both questions is yes, then Tina's shit is completely in the wind. If the Covey space part of this was in Monica's psyche, maybe Tina stands a chance.

Stands a chance at what, getting that thank you?

All perception is processed in the brain, and C-space, by demonic definition, has access to that brain. Rape can be psychological, even if it can't be prosecuted in court under that name.

But as for Tina's shit, she may lose it against Blackwing now. Jay-Em is right, this is an ethical shock for the collective, too: Using her demonic power of command to throw M into that situation might slip through the no-direct-harm loophole, but that doesn't mean the rest of Tina Inc. will stand for it. This may result in the release of Tina 2.2.

She may even go gold.

Dave wrote:I wouldn't count on Monica not showing physical signs of trauma from the attack, even if Covey-space is essentially non-physical. An event as traumatic as that Monica experienced could easily trigger psychomatic symptoms which mirror or mimic the remembered experience... "stigmata", as it were. (cringes more than a bit in sympathy)

This isn't Rosemary's Baby... but then again, how would a soul-borne entity replicate?

Atomic wrote:"And those who spurred us on now sit in judgement of our wrong..."

Ok -- what a mess. Time for a POV review.

That was a good overview for Monica. She may still have to think fast in a room with an exploding Tina, though...


But Jet is free. Hasn't been time to capture her reaction yet, but in typical Wapsi fashion, she could be anything from smoking-from-the-eyesockets dead on the floor, to be ready to sit up and calmly ask for a phone to call the police and confess to the murder of her rapist parents.

You know, I was halfway expecting to come back to this comic after a week-long hiatus to enough catch-up reading that I would get to skip some of the pondering points and get a lot more "Ah ha!". Unfortunately that didn't happen (which I totally understand since I did see Paul's FB post about what was going on)...so I guess now I get to s it back and try to relax while we learn more about why Tina did what she did and how she will handle this situation...and how Jet will react when she wakes...and how M will begin her own recovery process...and what the consequences of all of this pain will be...

In the end, I guess this is much better than a cliff-hanger (and it's still Monday), but there's a lot of emotional and moral implications to wade through. I only hope that our busty heroine gets the support she will need, and fast! Poor thing needs one of her own busty-mom-hugs right about now...

Gang, you're overlooking the point that Tina is already "timestopped" due to their actions in causing Monica to run in front of that bus when she was a kid. Tina is living 'her' punishment, and Mon isn't classed as a human any more. So the points you are making don't exactly apply to this situation.

Aleister Crow wrote: There's also the fact that the Tar had been with her since childhood. We don't know what it was, where it came from, how much of an influence it had on Georgette's personality, or if she even consciously knew it existed. For all we know, she somehow created it (subconsciously blaming the demons for the plane crash and creating the Tar to "punish" them?). Suddenly it's gone. I'm not even going to try to predict how she'll react.

I'm going to say that's probably not too far of a reach to explain all this... It is certainly a plausible explanation.

Julie wrote:You know, I was halfway expecting to come back to this comic after a week-long hiatus to enough catch-up reading that I would get to skip some of the pondering points and get a lot more "Ah ha!". Unfortunately that didn't happen (which I totally understand since I did see Paul's FB post about what was going on)...so I guess now I get to s it back and try to relax while we learn more about why Tina did what she did and how she will handle this situation...and how Jet will react when she wakes...and how M will begin her own recovery process...and what the consequences of all of this pain will be...

In the end, I guess this is much better than a cliff-hanger (and it's still Monday), but there's a lot of emotional and moral implications to wade through. I only hope that our busty heroine gets the support she will need, and fast! Poor thing needs one of her own busty-mom-hugs right about now...

I think the closest she's going to come to one of her busty mom hugs is another *boobplant* or possibly Euryale LOL

I don't think Monica is as accepting of her new status as Jaguar girl/demon shepherd as she lets on. It took Guidance to chase off the Tar... if indeed it was a demon. Monica needs to learn from this... and I think Phix might just be the one driving the lesson home that Monica needs to be on her toes against attacks like this.

My fear is that Monica will turn on Tina. I said earlier that Tina might be in trouble for causing harm to Monica and it was argued basically that a demon wouldn't see it that way and thus would not be subject to punishment. I beg to differ. Remember, Phix is a sphinx, who is capable and HAS killed humans to get at the demons inside for whatever reason. All Phix needs is to see Monica in this state and her anger is going to get unleashed on Tina for presuming to put Monica into a situation she didn't understand.

Hindsight being 20-20... (usually 20-50 in the wapsiverse lol) What should have happened is that with Jet unconscious, Tina should have taken time to explain things to Monica to allow her to prepare for what she had to do. If Jet began to awaken before Tina finished, she could have pulled the neat little *sleep* trick and kept Jet under (Sadly, no *boobplant* for Jet).

I grant that TIna meant no harm here... but when did that ever stop a Sphinx? Whether or not Phix will see it that way or not is immaterial. Tina rightly fears Phix's reaction to this. I think Tina understands that her continued existence is tolerated by Phix, who is just waiting for Tina to step so much as a pinky out of line, even though Phix seems to actually like Tina.

I'm waiting on Georgette's reaction. Getting de-fragmented, and now going through a reboot should result in some explanation, at least for the circumstances of the crash. It's not like she spent months in the Pine Barrens learning to live like a Monarch Butterfly.

Ohhhh...kayyyy, maybe you won't thank me later...

TheDOCTOR wrote:Kind of a "That wasn't supposed to happen"-type look in Tina's eyes. The look on Monica's face as she repeats those three words.
I. Was. RAPED! Now was this just Mentally, or is there ..."Physical evidence" ? Hate seeing Monica go through this.

PHYSICAL SCHMISICAL, Rape is not about the physical, it is all about manipulation, exerting dominance and taking away a persons right to choose. It is intended to inflict shame, pain and degrade. Tar got everything it deserved.

Tina sent Monica in because it was right and proper to do so. Only the demon Shepard could remove the tar.

Where Tina went wrong was in not giving Monica a heads up as to what the problem was so she could go in as the Jaguar Girl/Demon Shepard and just squish the little cockroach.

If I was Tina, I wouldn't be worried about Phix. I would be worried that Monica will be pissed that Tina knew about the tar and didn't tell Monica before she went in. A pissed of sub-Titan is infinitely worse than a mere sphinx could ever be.

Although, I suspect Monica probably has a much better understanding of why most people don't want to piss off a sphinx, and why she got her face ripped off. animal rage is a very dangerous thing, and rage by its very definition is not really controllable.

... So I was half right. Monica was holding it together until the job was done. Good call, folks.

Second the emotions expressed above -- I think Monica has the strength to deal with this, but that doesn't mean it's going to be easy... and I'm a guy, so what the heck do I know.

And I hope Tina can cope with her own guilt as well as everyone else's reactions.

DilyV wrote:Tina rightly fears Phix's reaction to this. I think Tina understands that her continued existence is tolerated by Phix, who is just waiting for Tina to step so much as a pinky out of line, even though Phix seems to actually like Tina.

I was under the impression that Phix' attitude towards Tina was one of pleased curiosity at seeing what Tina was becoming, and what she would continue evolving into, not one of mere toleration.

meisdadoo wrote:Where Tina went wrong was in not giving Monica a heads up as to what the problem was so she could go in as the Jaguar Girl/Demon Shepard and just squish the little cockroach.

I'm not sure Tina quite knew exactly what was the problem, only generally about Jet's emotional state...

meisdadoo wrote:If I was Tina, I wouldn't be worried about Phix. I would be worried that Monica will be pissed that Tina knew about the tar and didn't tell Monica before she went in.

Even more so this. I am convinced that Tina absolutely did not know about the Tar.

Jay-Em wrote:Soooo.. thàt's how Tina's "Oops!"-face looks.

NOTDilbert wrote:Aside from damaging their friendship, from what Tina said, if she harms someone, time will stop....Whether just for her, or universally, has not been stated.....

Buuut.. (there's always a "buuut" ) Wasn't there some loop-hole about "being harmed indirectly through her actions" , or "make someone do something that harms him/her?

I remember something about Tina stating that time would only stop if she f.i. directly, deliberately stabbed someone through the heart.

So, if Tina effectively locks her in a room with a serial rapist with only a cheerful "We believe in you! Do your best!" she gets off the hook because 'she didn't mean to'?
Don't think so, by Tina's own statements.
Back when Bud first met Tina, Tina spills hot coffee on Bud. Bud, who can breathe plasma, shrugs it off, but Tina nearly has a conniption over thinking she has just scalded Bud - accidentally.
Sounds like intentions don't count.....

One point most are overlooking is that Monica did NOT make a smooth transition from CSpace back to the real world. She returned and it was like the time in CSpace was a dream. The basic events came back but not the fine details. From that aspect she has mentally locked onto the realization that she was raped. It doesn't matter what else happened it is the Rape that is the 400 pound gorilla in the room. This must be dealt with before Monica can process the rest and see the experience as a whole. Everything but the rape is minor to her and nothing she did can be justified until she comes to terms with this. Was she justified yes. Will she believe it? Not until she gets past the rape and gets to the anger stage.
Tina's expression is because she knows Monica did not see this as a training exercise, or saving some one, Monica sees it as a result of the attack on her. An attack that does not yet justify Monica's response. Tina clearly did not expect this to happen nor how Monica would react to it.

...

Dunno the significance, but Tina's rattail is gone.

I mean, I get the symbology. It's just a noticeable bit of odd in the maelstrom.

Yamara wrote:...

Dunno the significance, but Tina's rattail is gone.

I mean, I get the symbology. It's just a noticeable bit of odd in the maelstrom.

FairportFan actually gave the clue to why this occurred, when he replied to my comment by referencing The Mikado.

Tina is going to be held responsible, and punished, for the death of the hair apparent.

I think this is going to be a test of character for Monica.
Does she "suck-it-up" and understand that even as a sub-Titan s**t happens, or does she lash out at Tina for not being entirely competent.
If it is the former, Monica will defend Tina against all comers, particularly Phix.

Dave wrote:

Yamara wrote:...

Dunno the significance, but Tina's rattail is gone.

I mean, I get the symbology. It's just a noticeable bit of odd in the maelstrom.

FairportFan actually gave the clue to why this occurred, when he replied to my comment by referencing The Mikado.

Tina is going to be held responsible, and punished, for the death of the hair apparent.

"I Seized him by his little pig-tail, and on his knees fell he..."

Dave wrote:

Yamara wrote:...

Dunno the significance, but Tina's rattail is gone.

I mean, I get the symbology. It's just a noticeable bit of odd in the maelstrom.

FairportFan actually gave the clue to why this occurred, when he replied to my comment by referencing The Mikado.

Tina is going to be held responsible, and punished, for the death of the hair apparent.

"Death of the hair apparent..". now I have diet Pepsi all over the key board AGAIN...>_<

NOTDilbert wrote:Back when Bud first met Tina, Tina spills hot coffee on Bud. Bud, who can breathe plasma, shrugs it off, but Tina nearly has a conniption over thinking she has just scalded Bud - accidentally.
Sounds like intentions don't count.....

This is indicative of the point I was trying to make... Tina is under a Do no harm directive... The depth of this directive hasn't been adequately explained, has it? Do no harm. Do no physical harm? Do no emotional harm? What applies and what doesn't? I would think that it is all inclusive... or at least that Tina's demons have been led to think so.