Wapsi Square Forum

Yeah, I'm hoping for some answers to those questions.

Preferrably yesterday. This "teaching" is putting the cart before the horse.

elanora wrote:Here Phix is censuring Monica and Shelly for breaking The Masquerade; but who is being served by it? The supernaturals have insurmountable advantages in literally every possible way. If humanity united rose up as one, humanity united would be smacked down as one.

IMO, if you asked the priests who built the Chimera why they were willing to do such horrible things and take such horrible risks, that would be the justification they'd give you. Human civilization in the open presence of supernaturals already self-destructed once. To prevent the same thing from happening again, a new kind of environment had to be created. With luck, the new civilization will develop its way out of the suicidal dilemma that unmade the old one. Suddenly drawing everyone's attention to incredibly powerful monsters that walk among them in human guise is a good way to provoke society into inflicting self-harm in the name of "security", with lots of collateral damage for paranormal civilians who get caught in the crossfire.

elanora wrote:The Masquerade is being enforced, and according to today's strip, living openly is something that many supernaturals wish to do. The question that I'm getting at is: Why bother?

For the eponymous example, take "Vampire: The Masquerade" Vampires keep their existence a secret because otherwise mortals would organize themselves and destroy them. The Masquerade is strictly enforced by vampires, for the protection of vampires.

In "Men in Black" a treaty requires that the existence of aliens be kept secret, or else said aliens will destroy the earth (for... reasons?). Furthermore, individual aliens tend not to be much stronger than humans when it comes down to a fight. At any rate, the primary reason the MiBs enforce the Masquerade is to prevent aliens from destroying the Earth... for reasons.

Here Phix is censuring Monica and Shelly for breaking The Masquerade; but who is being served by it? The supernaturals have insurmountable advantages in literally every possible way. If humanity united rose up as one, humanity united would be smacked down as one. If some people accepted them, and others didn't, they'd be no worse off than any minority group (plus they'd still have magic powers).

The fact that at least some high-level government officials are in on the secret anyway means that there seems to be even less reason to worry.

I don't have a problem with "The Masquerade" as a trope, quite the contrary, I like it a lot; but there has to be a good justification. Supernaturals as a whole have nothing to fear from mortals; the government is in collusion with them; perpetuating ignorance amongst the population at large seems to serve no purpose other than to create artificial narrative tension.

"There are supernaturals who would give everything to join society so openly as flying through the city!"

Why don't they?

Who's stopping them?

Why are they being stopped?

Frankly, why bother?

*Edit: to acknowledge Boxilar: It seems like we have enough rule of law to prevent torch-and-pitchfork mobs from coming after weaker supernaturals any more than they come after other minorities. Supernaturals are also far more able to defend themselves than unpopular mortal minorities. Even Atsali can effortlessly lift an adult human, and the existence of heavy-hitters would give self-styled Van Helsings quite a bit of pause.

Fair points. I think actionkermit above has a good point. When Supernaturals walk openly, people in power will look for ways to counter that power. The Chimera has been specifically refered to as a "Titan like creature."

Given time and motivation, humanity has been shown to build incredibly destructive (and self destructive) devices, nuklear weapons being the real world equivalent.

As far a society being ruled by law? There are far too many examples of human kind turning on and persecuting those who are deemed different. In such cases, goverments either turn a blind eye or openly participate in such percecution. (Jim Crow South anybody?) Sure, Atsali in her "true" form is a huge avian capable of lifting an adult human. In the age of sword and shield, that would give her a huge advantage. If worst came to worst, she just flys away. But in the age of guns and combat aircraft, she would be better of staying hidden. She's not going to outrun a combat helicopter of supersonic fighter jet armed with cannons and guided missiles. She's supernaturally tough, but she isn't bullet proof and she's been specifically described as "mortal".

After the fall of Lanthis by the Chimera, supernaturals have gone underground to avoid a repeat of that destruction and the reaction to thier pesence that spawned it. I think it's why Brandi wanted to set up the World Grid. It limits the access of powers that would casually stomp around scaring the crap out of humanity, and allows only those who have good intentions to pass. Monica and Shelly didn't mean any harm, and probably didn't even have the information to fully understand all this.

But the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

elanora wrote:The Masquerade is being enforced, and according to today's strip, living openly is something that many supernaturals wish to do. The question that I'm getting at is: Why bother?

For the eponymous example, take "Vampire: The Masquerade" Vampires keep their existence a secret because otherwise mortals would organize themselves and destroy them. The Masquerade is strictly enforced by vampires, for the protection of vampires.

In "Men in Black" a treaty requires that the existence of aliens be kept secret, or else said aliens will destroy the earth (for... reasons?). Furthermore, individual aliens tend not to be much stronger than humans when it comes down to a fight. At any rate, the primary reason the MiBs enforce the Masquerade is to prevent aliens from destroying the Earth... for reasons.

Here Phix is censuring Monica and Shelly for breaking The Masquerade; but who is being served by it? The supernaturals have insurmountable advantages in literally every possible way. If humanity united rose up as one, humanity united would be smacked down as one. If some people accepted them, and others didn't, they'd be no worse off than any minority group (plus they'd still have magic powers).

The fact that at least some high-level government officials are in on the secret anyway means that there seems to be even less reason to worry.

I don't have a problem with "The Masquerade" as a trope, quite the contrary, I like it a lot; but there has to be a good justification. Supernaturals as a whole have nothing to fear from mortals; the government is in collusion with them; perpetuating ignorance amongst the population at large seems to serve no purpose other than to create artificial narrative tension.

"There are supernaturals who would give everything to join society so openly as flying through the city!"

Why don't they?

Who's stopping them?

Why are they being stopped?

Frankly, why bother?

*Edit: to acknowledge Boxilar: It seems like we have enough rule of law to prevent torch-and-pitchfork mobs from coming after weaker supernaturals any more than they come after other minorities. Supernaturals are also far more able to defend themselves than unpopular mortal minorities. Even Atsali can effortlessly lift an adult human, and the existence of heavy-hitters would give self-styled Van Helsings quite a bit of pause.

We live in a world where people routinely lose their lives over such superficial differences as skin color, sexual preference or personal beliefs. Reveal the existence of an entire sub-civilization of non-humans, who've been living among us all along in secret and things will get bloody, fast. It doesn't matter who's stronger. It's not about who wins. It's about how many innocents on both sides lose their lives before it's over.

Lest we forget, Shelly should know something about Bigotry first-hand. The Comanche are extremely rare up in Minnesota. As rare as two Kiowa/Comanche boys with long braids in Oakland, California during the 70s. There were a couple of times when us four kids were the only Native Americans in the entire school, and for a misanthrope like me, attention of that stripe was infinitely grating to me. And I didn't have suction-cup arrows to modify either. I'll tell ya though, Frybread is a great way to make friends and influence people.

Okay...I think now it's time to give Phix a hug...and Shelly...and Monica... Everyone get in here for a group hug!!

davids4250 wrote:I think this will fit in with the end of the previous story with little Castela, I think our two mega-supes will see what the average supe has to go through. She is a delightful little girl, but she is purple, with horns and strange eyes. Whoever suggested thet they might become her babysitters may have been right.

I hope I was right!

Boxilar wrote:And Monica would be even more isolated. Before her power as a Glyph Reader manifested, M would have been vunerable even to "shitty mosquitos" like Pratt and McBride. Even after aquiring control of the GGGs and learning to POIT, M mostly rubbed shoulders with the Apex level supernaturals, enjoying thier protection and tutalage. She's suddenly been handed Apex level power through no desire or active actions of her own and is trying to adjust to being able to keep up with biengs who before could have folded her up like a dinner napkin.

Yeah...I tend to agree. I think Monica's dealing with a case of power and abilities that she got too quickly and didn't have to earn. If you have to work for something, you tend to be more respectful and aware of the positives and negatives associated with it...and how to protect it...whereas if you're given something with little to no consequences...well things can end badly (for a child- think new toy that is broken beyond repair; for adults- think scientific experiment goes "boom" and all of a sudden there's a situation that wipes out a large swath of the population).

elanora wrote:As a quick question: Why don't paranormals in the wapsiverse enter society more openly? The masquerade doesn't seem to be benefiting anyone when the supernatural beings are often more powerful than entire armies. Ending up hunted down by mobs is hardly a legitimate concern when any one of the GGGs could single-handedly defeat the combined armies of the earth.

ActionKermit and Boxilar beat me to this particular point, but I'd venture that some of the reason is because there are some paranormals that can be created from the deaths of humans (i.e. Golems and Vampires)...and if the human populace figured that out there would be plenty of people performing "experiments" to try and make their own paranormals...which would be bad. Yes, it's possible that our crew of ladies could hunt such operations down and end them before they got very far...but they might not get there in time to prevent atrocities. There's enough "horrible" in the world without people trying to create beings with super-powers (hence the Ethetians being locked away in crystals). I think that "protecting the paranormals and supernaturals from angry mobs and persecution" is only a potential part of the reason (since there are paras and supers that are mortal and not impervious to damage)...protecting humans from themselves is a bigger concern IMO.

Now they are starting to show the "guilty face". Particularly M, it looks like she is beginning to understand Phix's lecture (it is always the "you disappoint me" line that does it). Supernaturals, like Monica and Shelly have it good; they can go out in Public, and no one will bother them. Well, okay, maybe the guys will, with a horrible one-liner, to hit on them, possibly followed up with a phone number, but that is beside the point. Others, like our tooth-achingly sweet Castela, are not so lucky; as adorable as she may be, there is no way she can go out, with out having the general public freak out, and possibly try to hurt her. Maybe Phix should take those two to Atsali's and Castela's old orphanage with a "these kids will never have the luxury that you two have, so do not blow it" message.

Paranormals learned a terrible lesson from Lantis. If you are part of the society you cna be used by the society. Example is that Pratt and McBride worked for the FBI. While that is a good thing it highlights the issue. What about all the dirty little departments that would be willing to use them the wrong way? I am sure there are a number of them who would not quibble at killing normals in return for acceptance of some kind and there are a lot of groups that would use them. Would Waspiverse want to have an underground war going on of humans using paranormals against each other? Hitler would certainly have used them freely, as would Stalin. What about the current terrorist groups if they had access? Once their existence becomes common and accepted things like this would start happening. That general Bad Brandi dealt with is a perfect example.
Another factor is that some people just have to hate others for any silly reason. Even Phix is not immune after all vamps are mosquito's to her. There could very easily be another inquisition or witch hunt for them. Especially by fanatics of many types. And what about the envy of people for those with very long life times? There are a lot of reasons to stay hidden.

Dave wrote:

Jabberwonky wrote:Looks like the message is getting through to Monica better than Shelly...

I dunno. I can't tell for sure, but it looks to me as if Shelly is teary-eyed.

I don't know... looks like the beginnings of a pretty good shiner to me...

The idea that the existence of magic has to be hidden from humans, lest humans destroy themselves with magic is perfectly legitimate, and I'm willing to buy it. It's traditionally been the explanation that the setting has leaned on. The trouble is, at least in this situation, it's not what Phix is trying to sell. Perhaps it's a rhetorical tactic.

Considering that the upper echelons of government already know about supernaturals, the only violence they'd need to worry about would be the type from random disorganized yahoos, who are hardly a concern for any but the very, very weakest of supers. Atsali is likely the weakest supernatural we've seen, and she's literally a child. Eurale seems to be commoner-level, and she can zap people into statues with her gaze. Pratt, and McBride are "Shitty mosquitos", and "Just bugs", and you'd have to be a pretty bad dude to take on even one of them.

The masquerade being to protect humans from themselves is fine, but this is the first we've heard that the paranormals are unsatisfied with it. Given the power levels of even commoners, and the fact that the government already knows about them, I find it hard to accept that it's to protect them from bigots.

Aleister Crow wrote:We live in a world where people routinely lose their lives over such superficial differences as skin color, sexual preference or personal beliefs. Reveal the existence of an entire sub-civilization of non-humans, who've been living among us all along in secret and things will get bloody, fast. It doesn't matter who's stronger. It's not about who wins. It's about how many innocents on both sides lose their lives before it's over.

Bingo.

You have only to look at the way that human minority groups have been treated repeatedly, over the past few centuries (and today is no exception) to see the answer to elanora's question.

Even fairly large minority groups can be incredibly vulnerable to organized, or mob-based persecution and destruction. Just being "different" is enough to make you a target... and being successful, or wealthy, or powerful (or even being seen or portrayed as those things) can make matters much worse, by exciting envy.

Ask the Jews about the Holocaust. Ask the many victims of the Hutu/Tutsi conflict in Africa. Ask the many gays and lesbians who have been beaten or killed on the streets of America, or imprisoned in many countries (even today), or those who have remained closeted for fear of facing these hazards.

On the side of fiction, read Heinlein's "Methuselah's Children", a novel about a group of humans who had been selectively bred for long lifetimes.

The "rule of law" to protect the different, goes only so far. In practice, such law acts as a protection only when the society in question is already quite tolerant of the differences in question. If not, such laws are either ignored, or never passed in the first place.

I do not find it even slightly surprising that the paranormals want to stay hidden.

Dave wrote:

Aleister Crow wrote:We live in a world where people routinely lose their lives over such superficial differences as skin color, sexual preference or personal beliefs. Reveal the existence of an entire sub-civilization of non-humans, who've been living among us all along in secret and things will get bloody, fast. It doesn't matter who's stronger. It's not about who wins. It's about how many innocents on both sides lose their lives before it's over.

Bingo.

You have only to look at the way that human minority groups have been treated repeatedly, over the past few centuries (and today is no exception) to see the answer to elanora's question.

Even fairly large minority groups can be incredibly vulnerable to organized, or mob-based persecution and destruction. Just being "different" is enough to make you a target... and being successful, or wealthy, or powerful (or even being seen or portrayed as those things) can make matters much worse, by exciting envy.

Ask the Jews about the Holocaust. Ask the many victims of the Hutu/Tutsi conflict in Africa. Ask the many gays and lesbians who have been beaten or killed on the streets of America, or imprisoned in many countries (even today), or those who have remained closeted for fear of facing these hazards.

On the side of fiction, read Heinlein's "Methuselah's Children", a novel about a group of humans who had been selectively bred for long lifetimes.

The "rule of law" to protect the different, goes only so far. In practice, such law acts as a protection only when the society in question is already quite tolerant of the differences in question. If not, such laws are either ignored, or never passed in the first place.

I do not find it even slightly surprising that the paranormals want to stay hidden.

I understand this, and it makes a lot of sense, but this is the first time the bolded section has been contradicted. I'm queer, and a racial minority in real life, and that might be why this pricked a nerve with me. If LGBT people can live openly, so can wizards. But, if you want to be out of the closet... you have to come out of the closet. The general population being ignorant of magic confers a huge advantage to magic users, in that no one defends against or suspects magic when they don't believe it exists, and up until now I'd always assumed that the Masquerade was kept in place, at least secondarily, to preserve this advantage, and that the supernatural preferred the secrecy and exclusivity of the status quo.

The atrocities you've listed are fine examples of human cruelty and intolerance, but they ring a bit hollow when you consider that The Holocaust would have been over before it started if the Jews had had even one Golem. In fact just someone with the *POIT* power, or even Tina alone would have been enough. Minority groups are able to be persecuted specifically because they are weaker than their oppressors.

Normally, it makes sense for the magical to hide from the mundane because the sum of mundane power is greater than the sum of magical power. In the wapsiverse, the sum of mortal power is less than the sum of... Bud. Or Brandi for that matter, who already had a day job enforcing laws and protecting people.

Protecting humans from themselves is a great reason, and enhancing an advantage is a great reason, but any individual trying to persecute wapsiverse paranormals would quickly end up biting off more than they could chew, and any organized group or nation state trying to persecute paranormals would quickly find its leadership *poited* to small cells.

“Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.” would be a lesson very quickly taken to heart by anyone who felt they had a problem accepting paranormals. It's very difficult to persecute people who are stronger than you, both individually, and as a group. If supernaturals don't want to live in the shadows, it's not mundane bigots keeping them there.

shadowinthelight wrote:Do as I say, not as I did.

It's interesting, how this situation is echoing some of the things that Monica and Shelly have been through. What's happening here, is definitely a "next step" in their growth as individuals and paranormals. For both of them, it's another lesson in "Think of the implications of your actions, before you act!"

For Monica, it's somewhat of a reprise of what happened when she angrily poited Nudge into the volcano. She acted on impulse, and then had to face up to the true consequences of her actions. Here, again, she acted thoughtlessly and has unforeseen consequences to deal with.

Ditto for Shelly, in a way. A lot of her life-progress has been learning how to manage the consequences of her own strength and abilities... from being a bully as a child (becoming what she hated, in effect), to throwing engine blocks across the room, to learning to manage the spontaneous violence of her sphinx ancestry. Now, she has to learn to anticipate and manage the implications of her non-violent acts as a sphinx - simply being seen can be catastrophic.

"Bridges that you thought you'd crossed... gotta cross 'em all again!" (Armageddon, "Brother Ego")

Interesting, also, that this scene comes back to what Bia told Shelly. "You know how older beings try to tell younger ones, not to make the same mistakes as they did? It never works. Brains don't work like that." Perhaps Monica and Shelly could learn this lesson properly, only by screwing up and then having to face the consequences... personal experience can be a potent teacher.

We can only hope that the consequences won't be truly terrible.

elanora wrote:I understand this, and it makes a lot of sense, but this is the first time the bolded section has been contradicted. I'm queer, and a racial minority in real life, and that might be why this pricked a nerve with me. If LGBT people can live openly, so can wizards. But, if you want to be out of the closet... you have to come out of the closet. The general population being ignorant of magic confers a huge advantage to magic users, in that no one defends against or suspects magic when they don't believe it exists, and up until now I'd always assumed that the Masquerade was kept in place, at least secondarily, to preserve this advantage, and that the supernatural preferred the secrecy and exclusivity of the status quo.

And, I agree, that's probably one strong motivation for the Masquerade. I don't think there's only a single reason why the paranormals are choosing to stay hidden.

The atrocities you've listed are fine examples of human cruelty and intolerance, but they ring a bit hollow when you consider that The Holocaust would have been over before it started if the Jews had had even one Golem. In fact just someone with the *POIT* power, or even Tina alone would have been enough. Minority groups are able to be persecuted specifically because they are weaker than their oppressors.

Well, I sorta agree and sorta disagree. Things would definitely have been different, but not necessarily good.

What if the Jews had had a single golem, and the Nazis had also had a golem? (Analogy: the race between the Nazis and the Allies to develop an atomic bomb.) Likely the Holocaust wouldn't have happened as it did... but something much worse might have occurred. A golem-against-golem battle could have left the planet burned up worse than after the unfortunate Chimera incident.

In the current scenario: yes, a high-level paranormal such as a sphinx could defend lower-level paranormals against persecution to some extent. But, can we guarantee that all of the high-power paranormals would necessarily be on the same side, or be dedicated to defending all paranormals? We've seen that there are serious divisions among paranormals - there's a caste system of sorts (vampires and werewolves down at the bottom), and the sphinxes at least have an aggressive, violent, "I'm out for me, and the hell with you if you can't defend yourself!" culture. How likely is it that lower-caste paranormals would want to trust their lives to the sphinxes?

Also: it's convenient to think that strong paranormals could actually "protect" weaker ones against violence... but I don't believe that's true, any more than (e.g.) the presence of police can protect people against robbery or murder. In many cases, the best that a "protector" can do, is ensure that there are dire consequences and penalties for those who commit violence... they can't actually stop the violence. There are plenty of people around who commit violence (out of racism, bigotry, anger, etc.) and who don't think through the possible consequences beforehand, or who simply don't care. We've had the death penalty for murder in many states for years... some states such as Texas even enforce it actively and fairly quickly... and as far as I can tell, there are still plenty of murders taking place in Texas (not to pick on them... it's a universal issue).

Sphinxes can easily kill humans (and they've done so for their own reasons for thousands of years)... but persuading humans to actually tolerate and befriend other paranormals so that violence doesn't happen, maybe not.

I'm reminded of the "Daughter of the Empire" trilogy, in which (spoiler) the incredibly powerful Assembly of Magicians is forced in the end to admit that they can no longer maintain their covert control of culture in the Empire, because they aren't really suited to be active governors and persuaders, and because the only real response they could make to being widely defied is to commit mass slaughter. Power has its limits.

if the goal of many non-human supernaturals is to be able to stop hiding, and live happily and openly among humans... would they want to live in a world where they were feared and hated by humans, because of the very fact that they were "protected" by apex paranormals whose strategy is "slaughter any group of humans who hurt paranormals"? Would they achieve their real goal of happy coexistence that way?

There's another aspect of the "paranormals coming into open view" issue I thought of while riding into work this morning. If the truth about paranormals were disclosed, today's human culture would have to admit to the fact that the Old Gods are both real, and still alive... that Zeus, the Titans, Shiva, Amun, etc. aren't just myths. Possibly Yahway as well although he hasn't yet been mentioned in Wapsi as far as I can recall.

Just how would the mainstream religions (Abrahamic and otherwise) take this? Religious intolerance (up to and including religious wars) might become much worse than they are today. Greek and Hindu mythology are full of stories of conflicts between the gods, with the effects slopping over onto human society, and there's plenty of history of humans carrying out atrocities in the name of whatever they were worshiping. Adding proof that "Our God is real!" to this mix might be like throwing gasoline on a fire.

So, from where I sit, it feels as if the paranormal community as a whole sees that the benefits of Disclosure, are probably not worth the risks, and that Masquerade should be maintained.

Dave wrote: And, I agree, that's probably one strong motivation for the Masquerade. I don't think there's only a single reason why the paranormals are choosing to stay hidden.

The atrocities you've listed are fine examples of human cruelty and intolerance, but they ring a bit hollow when you consider that The Holocaust would have been over before it started if the Jews had had even one Golem. In fact just someone with the *POIT* power, or even Tina alone would have been enough. Minority groups are able to be persecuted specifically because they are weaker than their oppressors.

Well, I sorta agree and sorta disagree. Things would definitely have been different, but not necessarily good.

What if the Jews had had a single golem, and the Nazis had also had a golem? (Analogy: the race between the Nazis and the Allies to develop an atomic bomb.) Likely the Holocaust wouldn't have happened as it did... but something much worse might have occurred. A golem-against-golem battle could have left the planet burned up worse than after the unfortunate Chimera incident.

There seems to be here a tacit admission that the only real threat to a paranormal is another paranormal, with mundanes being pawns and collateral damage. I do find it noble and desirable that human safety should be a concern, but the paranormals already fight amongst themselves.

Dave wrote:In the current scenario: yes, a high-level paranormal such as a sphinx could defend lower-level paranormals against persecution to some extent. But, can we guarantee that all of the high-power paranormals would necessarily be on the same side, or be dedicated to defending all paranormals? We've seen that there are serious divisions among paranormals - there's a caste system of sorts (vampires and werewolves down at the bottom), and the sphinxes at least have an aggressive, violent, "I'm out for me, and the hell with you if you can't defend yourself!" culture. How likely is it that lower-caste paranormals would want to trust their lives to the sphinxes?

Also: it's convenient to think that strong paranormals could actually "protect" weaker ones against violence... but I don't believe that's true, any more than (e.g.) the presence of police can protect people against robbery or murder. In many cases, the best that a "protector" can do, is ensure that there are dire consequences and penalties for those who commit violence... they can't actually stop the violence. There are plenty of people around who commit violence (out of racism, bigotry, anger, etc.) and who don't think through the possible consequences beforehand, or who simply don't care. We've had the death penalty for murder in many states for years... some states such as Texas even enforce it actively and fairly quickly... and as far as I can tell, there are still plenty of murders taking place in Texas (not to pick on them... it's a universal issue).

Of course they wouldn't be immune to crime or violence... no one is, human or otherwise, but it's the risk you expose yourself to when you participate in a civilization. The fact that the average paranormal is a far harder target than the average human, and much better able defend themselves would likely balance their minority status to a substantial degree.

Dave wrote:Sphinxes can easily kill humans (and they've done so for their own reasons for thousands of years)... but persuading humans to actually tolerate and befriend other paranormals so that violence doesn't happen, maybe not.

I'm reminded of the "Daughter of the Empire" trilogy, in which (spoiler) the incredibly powerful Assembly of Magicians is forced in the end to admit that they can no longer maintain their covert control of culture in the Empire, because they aren't really suited to be active governors and persuaders, and because the only real response they could make to being widely defied is to commit mass slaughter. Power has its limits.

if the goal of many non-human supernaturals is to be able to stop hiding, and live happily and openly among humans... would they want to live in a world where they were feared and hated by humans, because of the very fact that they were "protected" by apex paranormals whose strategy is "slaughter any group of humans who hurt paranormals"? Would they achieve their real goal of happy coexistence that way?

There's another aspect of the "paranormals coming into open view" issue I thought of while riding into work this morning. If the truth about paranormals were disclosed, today's human culture would have to admit to the fact that the Old Gods are both real, and still alive... that Zeus, the Titans, Shiva, Amun, etc. aren't just myths. Possibly Yahway as well although he hasn't yet been mentioned in Wapsi as far as I can recall.

Just how would the mainstream religions (Abrahamic and otherwise) take this? Religious intolerance (up to and including religious wars) might become much worse than they are today. Greek and Hindu mythology are full of stories of conflicts between the gods, with the effects slopping over onto human society, and there's plenty of history of humans carrying out atrocities in the name of whatever they were worshiping. Adding proof that "Our God is real!" to this mix might be like throwing gasoline on a fire.

So, from where I sit, it feels as if the paranormal community as a whole sees that the benefits of Disclosure, are probably not worth the risks, and that Masquerade should be maintained.

These are more good reasons, and paranormals coming into view would certainly cause mass societal upheaval (part of which would be due to societal assumptions being built on lies...), and there would be a long adjustment period which would be uncomfortable for many, yet perhaps quite thrilling for others.

In general, I think that there are dozens of very good reasons for paranormals to keep up The Masquerade. However, in the Wapsiverse, "We are afraid of the mortals" is not one of them. That Phix brought it up, much less led with it, is surprising, and a bit off-key.

elanora wrote:As a quick question: Why don't paranormals in the wapsiverse enter society more openly? The masquerade doesn't seem to be benefiting anyone when the supernatural beings are often more powerful than entire armies. Ending up hunted down by mods is hardly a legitimate concern when any one of the GGGs could single-handedly defeat the combined armies of the earth.

The answer is that the masquerade serves the purposes of all.
It prevents the unnecessary bloodshed of untold numbers of innocents of all types in a truly pointless power struggle and prevents the establishment of police states which will inevitably cause far more misery than they could possibly prevent.
This is the real leverage MIB has working within legitimate governments. Those governments have trouble enough dealing with more mundane matters that cannot be swept under the rug.
Yes, it's true that the Titans would win in any showdown with the mundanes, but they would gain nothing and lose almost everything, and everyone, they hold dear.
Not that it's easy to pull off. Remember Pratt and McBride's chief? Coffee cup in one hand and antacid bottle in the other.

Who says it's the mortals they are afraid of?

There are obviously several power factions in the Wapsiverse, some of which have been blocked off from access to our planet by a barrier built by other para-normals. There are para-normal politicians working behind the scenes along with the up front politicians to keep things under control. There are extra dimensional beings and realms, beings and realms that deal with the souls of the dead, and "critters" beyond description. Mortal humans are just part of the ecosystem and may have little to do with why the established order is set up the way it is other than as the background to be blended in against.

We really aren't told why the powers that be in charge of things decided sometime in the past that the world would be a better place if the bulk of the humanity was unaware of the metaphysical side of things. But they did and we are and that's where things stand.

The really interesting question is who is enforcing it?

Humanity has blown up Earth twice. Lanthis in the 106th Century BC, and the Etheitians in the 44th.

"Evil is a human element." So why are they being tolerated with another high civilization?

Obviously, this time there are fewer Titans and such doing the tweaking. Lanthis and the Etheitians had full contact with the Big Guys. But in the thwarting of the Titans, the Chessmaster had the built the opportunity to wipe out all mankind, especially once Bud was in mothballs. She did not-- but she was born of evil, and a spreader of hate.

She wanted mankind powerful, on her terms.

Assuming the Chessmaster was truly trapped by surprise, her plans are bumbling forward without her, no one at the helm. The Grid may still keep the Old Gods out, but if it comes down, are they going to tolerate what's going on?



Monica and Shelly represent a new era, a new generation born of mortal and immortal. It's probably why everyone thought the world of them: These were young gods, with roots in humanity and hard-earned horse sense to boot. Problem-solvers. Optimists. Everything was about to change toward a new golden age.


Aaaaand now they acted like the same old entitled assholes.


And yes, they did know better. http://wapsisquare.com/comic/societysrules/

Dave wrote:Also: it's convenient to think that strong paranormals could actually "protect" weaker ones against violence... but I don't believe that's true, any more than (e.g.) the presence of police can protect people against robbery or murder. In many cases, the best that a "protector" can do, is ensure that there are dire consequences and penalties for those who commit violence... they can't actually stop the violence. There are plenty of people around who commit violence (out of racism, bigotry, anger, etc.) and who don't think through the possible consequences beforehand, or who simply don't care. We've had the death penalty for murder in many states for years... some states such as Texas even enforce it actively and fairly quickly... and as far as I can tell, there are still plenty of murders taking place in Texas (not to pick on them... it's a universal issue).

I think this is a really good point. (And I won't accuse you of picking on us Texans...we know that we're known for how we handle capital punishment )

elanora wrote:

Dave wrote: And, I agree, that's probably one strong motivation for the Masquerade. I don't think there's only a single reason why the paranormals are choosing to stay hidden.

The atrocities you've listed are fine examples of human cruelty and intolerance, but they ring a bit hollow when you consider that The Holocaust would have been over before it started if the Jews had had even one Golem. In fact just someone with the *POIT* power, or even Tina alone would have been enough. Minority groups are able to be persecuted specifically because they are weaker than their oppressors.

Well, I sorta agree and sorta disagree. Things would definitely have been different, but not necessarily good.

What if the Jews had had a single golem, and the Nazis had also had a golem? (Analogy: the race between the Nazis and the Allies to develop an atomic bomb.) Likely the Holocaust wouldn't have happened as it did... but something much worse might have occurred. A golem-against-golem battle could have left the planet burned up worse than after the unfortunate Chimera incident.

There seems to be here a tacit admission that the only real threat to a paranormal is another paranormal, with mundanes being pawns and collateral damage. I do find it noble and desirable that human safety should be a concern, but the paranormals already fight amongst themselves.

Actually, while the only physical threat to apex paranormals is another apex paranormal, it's worth noting that in Dave's example, the golems are being led/controled by humans...which makes the golems pawns (or at least weapons of mass destruction)...and that says nothing of the non-apex paranormals. I'm sure there are paranormals out there who are vulnerable to human attack. This argument actually reminded me of X-Men 2...when Professor Xavier's school was invaded by humans who were able to capture and subdue many of the mutants...not all beings with "powers" have powers that are in any way useful in an attack scenario (i.e. that kid who could change the channels on tv by blinking). The paranormals we've seen (aside from Atsali and Castela) have all been very powerful...but that doesn't mean all paranormals are that powerful or even that invulnerable.

elanora wrote:The fact that the average paranormal is a far harder target than the average human, and much better able defend themselves would likely balance their minority status to a substantial degree.

Again, I think that we can't assume that the "average paranormal" is actually a harder target to injure/kill than a human. We've only seen a total of 22 paranormals/supernaturals (if you include Tina and the apo that Phix killed...but not counting the Nü Gui since she inhabited Brandi...and assuming I'm counting correctly). I don't think it's safe to look at those and then extrapolate to the paranormal population of Earth as a whole. We've been witnessing the power-players...the Librarians, a few Titans, a couple of women who died forgotten and turned into paranormals, one barista's body inhabited by Demons, and the offspring/creations of folks on power-trips...plus a couple of orphans (and a partridge in a pear tree). The more we are exposed to the realm of paranormal/supernatural, the more I'm certain that there are facets of existence that we have yet to see...and Atsali and Castela are perfect examples of the fact that not all non-humans are very powerful.

I do agree with you that "we're afraid of humans" seems a little off-key...but that's not what Phix said. She said that there are supernaturals who would like to openly live in society like M and Shelly do, but they aren't "'queens' of the Earth"...they live with others' fear and discrimination...even within their own "society" of supernaturals. This implies not that they fear humans, but that they don't believe that the other supernaturals (or potentially MiB) will help cover for them...and that they'd be vulnerable to the backlash that followed any behavior that made them apparent to humans. That's a bit different. It's obvious that some of the lower-ranked paranormals (i.e. the Vamp Girls) live in human society, but they also fear (and respect) most of the other supernaturals we've seen them encounter...to the point where I wonder if they feel like they're being watched and evaluated and are just waiting for the hammer to fall on them with a note on it saying "You're time is up!" That's a whole different world than the one that Shelly and Monica live in...where they're the golden girls who can do what they want, go where they want, and not worry about the consequences. Not only do they blend in with the humans, but they have friends in high places...and are essentially immortal.

I think that's more the point that Phix is trying to drive home here. Not "we hide from humans out of fear," but "we follow the rules and maintain the masquerade, and you two should know better than to behave like idiots 'just because you can'." Instead of "clean your plate because there are children starving in the world" it's "follow the rules because there are paranormals out there who don't get treated as nicely as you do when they break them."