Wapsi Square Forum

Re: Previous....

Is there a way to examine awkwardness without discussing awkwardness? Can you illustrate embarrassment and self consciousness without dealing with examples? Does the Rule of Funny negate the importance of a plot point, or diminish it's significance to the actor?

The ebb and flow of Drama necessarily includes pathos and comedy as well as horror and anxiety. Fan service is just that - eye candy for the fans. This story is not that. Where is it a good thing to examine body image issues by having the characters sit around a table wrapped in shapeless canvas bags discussing way back in the day when they were soooo humiliated? What's gained other than not possibly offending some one easily offended by whatever offends them this week? Shall the storyline be limited according to the most sensitive reader's taste and insecurity?

Don't let other people's limitations become your constraints.

Monica's growth has been in her understanding she's a lot more than T&A, and accepting herself for it. Jin saved the world and gave up immortality. Brandy fought off demons. Bud started loving herself. Shelly erupted, accepted, and found love. Kat grew from a recluse to a hero. And now we have an admittedly new character, Atsali, facing a personal crisis. Where shall it go from here?

As Fairportfan (sorry if I got it wrong) once said: "Come for the boobs - stay for the story." Yes.

PW has been pushing his editorial envelope. Good. He has something to say.

Atomic wrote:Re: Previous....
As Fairportfan (sorry if I got it wrong) once said: "Come for the boobs - stay for the story." Yes.

Certainly sounds like something i'd say, but i don't remember doing so.

ICQisstillathing wrote: <diatribe against Pablo>

Long story short, I'm now reading for schadenfreude. Maybe I'll come back when there's more mythical plot, but I have a feeling it'll just be more T&A. Which is a damn shame.

More room for the rest of us.

Just remember to use the Stevens Avenue North entrance on your way out.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I said "Come for the babes, stay for the story."

jwhouk wrote:EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I said "Come for the babes, stay for the story."

Thank you. I stand corrected about your prior tagline.

ICQisstillathing wrote:Atsali's wearing a button-down shirt to bed. Do you know how many teen girls who wear that to bed? Having been one, the answer is, not many. It was done to show everyone the cute underboob shot and the visual gag of the buttons popping off.

Having been one as well, the answer actually is "While there may not be many, there still are some." I wore a satin pj set as a teen that were shorts and a button-down shirt with a collar. I got them from Victoria's Secret and thought they were classy-sexy. *shrugs* I don't see how showing Atsali in a button-down shirt at night is purely for the button-popping gag and underboob shot. If she'd be sleeping in a t-shirt that fit her pre-sleep, we may have dealt with a shirt ripping under the strain of her "growth spurt." Which is more "appropriate" for the story without being unnecessarily revealing? I have a feeling the button gag would be the best solution when you look at it that way.

ICQisstillathing wrote:She's uncomfortable. Wildly so. Yet she's being drawn in the same perspective and presentation as we get when seeing Monica deliberately trying to be sexy.

I don't see how Paul's perspective and presentation makes her look "sexy." I see wildly uncomfortable...which is obviously what everyone sees since we're all talking about it. Nothing about her poses (or anything else on these pages that I've noticed) mirrors when Paul has drawn M trying to be sexy. You may have to link me to some archive pages for me to understand the connection you're seeing here.

ICQisstillathing wrote:And having gone through the enjoyable (?) experience of growing huge boobs and needing to deal with them, I can say that at that age, my first instinct wouldn't be to shut up my baby sister, whom I have and who is mouthy. My first instinct would be covering myself. So I'm not being aroused. I'm saying that in the context of what's happening, it's not being drawn in a way that suggests awkwardness.

As someone who also went through that experience (sans sister), I can say that you're right about first instincts. However, if you'll notice the first panel of Friday's page, you'll see that Atsali's first reaction was to cover herself. She may not have done it in a "wrapping her arms around her chest" kind of way that might have been more obviously an attempt to cover up, but she was covering herself and it looks like (to me at least) she was also trying to shove her new bosom down...almost like a subconscious attempt to make them go away. *shrugs* I'd say that, while more time could have been devoted to hiding herself, she did at least have that initial reaction...and then when her sister didn't quit talking, instead of fleeing (i.e. hiding under covers or in another room in order to "hide" her new figure in shame) she fought back...which is a legitimate reaction when frustrated. If there was as much anger/frustration mixed in with her embarrassment as it seemed to me, then simply hiding herself in shame wouldn't have been the only real reaction.

Please don't be offended by this (I certainly do not intend offense), but based on your response to these last few pages it feels rather like you are projecting your own experiences with being chesty as a kid onto this character. While there's nothing wrong with developing a connection to a character due to similar life experiences, there is a high likelihood that said character's reactions won't mirror your own. Heck, like I said before, I've been super chesty since I was a teen (didn't "blossom" early, but when I did grow I grew fast), and I didn't experience any shame or negative emotions about it. It was actually a point of pride for me. I wasn't picked on by kids at school beyond the wistful teasing I got from friends who were wishing they had bigger breasts. I did understand that people might look at me and assume "bimbo," "slut," and/or "implants," but honestly if I was ever treated differently because of my rack, it was never made clear to me that said treatment was because of my rack. I just handled the situation as if I'd been misjudged without ever knowing or caring why that person decided I was stupid or easy...and I was very good at correcting their opinion of me.

Anyhow...all of that is to say that maybe the reason I'm reading less "this is too sexy and not awkward enough" into this than you is because I had less of an awkward reaction to my own puberty experience, and maybe the reason you're feeling that this isn't being treated appropriately is because of your own experiences. I could be very wrong since I know absolutely nothing about your personal life and how you grew up...but I know that a lot of what we read into comics, novels, blogs, and any other media comes from our own perspective. What is amusing to some is concerning and hurtful to others...what may have been intended as a light-hearted joking statement may be read as serious and therefore offensive to the recipient...where I see a comic handling a serious issue in a light-hearted but still respectful way, you see a comic handling a serious issue in a way that is too sexy and makes jokes about something that should be given more gravity.

We're each entitled to our own opinions, but I think it's very important to also consider the intent of the author. Given Paul's history of promoting strong women and the importance of healthy body images, I feel it's worthwhile to assume that he's not intending to provide gratuitous fan-service of an underage girl or make light of an issue that is relevant and serious to many people.

ICQisstillathing wrote:Long story short, I'm now reading for schadenfreude. Maybe I'll come back when there's more mythical plot, but I have a feeling it'll just be more T&A. Which is a damn shame.

I agree that it's a shame you feel this way. I hope that your continued reading will prove your fears wrong (I already feel they're wrong, but since you have these concerns at all, I don't know that you will interpret the comics to come in the same way I would).

Atomic wrote:

jwhouk wrote:EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I said "Come for the babes, stay for the story."

Thank you. I stand corrected about your prior tagline.

I'm not saying, of course, that no one else actually said "boobs" for "babes", though.

ICQisstillathing wrote:Atsali's wearing a button-down shirt to bed. Do you know how many teen girls who wear that to bed?

Why the fuck does eveyone think that I give my female characters button shirts to wear to bed?! They thought that with Shelly too. They're fucking pajamas! Remember those?!

Wapsi wrote:

ICQisstillathing wrote:Atsali's wearing a button-down shirt to bed. Do you know how many teen girls who wear that to bed?

Why the fuck does eveyone think that I give my female characters button shirts to wear to bed?! They thought that with Shelly too. They're fucking pajamas! Remember those?!

Find your peaceful place Paul. Some people see boobs and the first thought that hits them is sexual. It sucks but there you are. Most of us have seen this for what it is, a view into the awkwardness that is the transition to full blown puberty and not a sexual or fan-service device.

Wapsi wrote:

ICQisstillathing wrote:Atsali's wearing a button-down shirt to bed. Do you know how many teen girls who wear that to bed?

Why the fuck does eveyone think that I give my female characters button shirts to wear to bed?! They thought that with Shelly too. They're fucking pajamas! Remember those?!

I remember! I had a set. They were baby blue.

Mark N wrote:

Wapsi wrote:

ICQisstillathing wrote:Atsali's wearing a button-down shirt to bed. Do you know how many teen girls who wear that to bed?

Why the fuck does eveyone think that I give my female characters button shirts to wear to bed?! They thought that with Shelly too. They're fucking pajamas! Remember those?!

Find your peaceful place Paul. Some people see boobs and the first thought that hits them is sexual. It sucks but there you are. Most of us have seen this for what it is, a view into the awkwardness that is the transition to full blown puberty and not a sexual or fan-service device.

People like that are hardly worth listening to. Just pity them for their lack of artistic appreciation, philosophical understanding, empathy, and overall emotional and intellectual intelligence. If you want them to go away, start using big words. They quickly realize that they are in over their head and leave. Either that, or their brains short out. That's when you need to use a wheelbarrow. Just dump them out at the jock table.

GlytchMeister wrote: People like that are hardly worth listening to. Just pity them for their lack of artistic appreciation, philosophical understanding, empathy, and overall emotional and intellectual intelligence. If you want them to go away, start using big words. They quickly realize that they are in over their head and leave. Either that, or their brains short out. That's when you need to use a wheelbarrow. Just dump them out at the jock table.

And sometimes they learn something and start to appreciate the intelligent angles behind the art and story.

Mark N wrote:

GlytchMeister wrote: People like that are hardly worth listening to. Just pity them for their lack of artistic appreciation, philosophical understanding, empathy, and overall emotional and intellectual intelligence. If you want them to go away, start using big words. They quickly realize that they are in over their head and leave. Either that, or their brains short out. That's when you need to use a wheelbarrow. Just dump them out at the jock table.

And sometimes they learn something and start to appreciate the intelligent angles behind the art and story.

That's always a bonus. Back at the Outcast Table at my high school, that's called "The Hidden Gem Phenomenon". I found a hidden gem when a football jock was revealed to be homosexual. He was immediately beaten and ostracized, and I invited him to the Outcast Table. I got to watch as he went from pretending to be a quintessential straight football jock to actually being himself and taking pride in it. I believe he is planning on becoming a cosmologist.

As for the bastards who beat him up... Well, their football careers ended prematurely once I found them.