Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

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Dr. Otter
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Dr. Otter »

scantrontb wrote:um... what is "Borderline"? it sounds like you are forgetting a word in the sentences? ie diagnosed with severe borderline "what"? and if it is SEVERE then how can it be on the border, implying that it is NOT severe but JUST a little bit of whatever "it" is?
"Borderline Personality Disorder" is a serious mental health problem. "Borderline" is the name of the disorder, not a description of its severity. It's easier described by example. Although fantastically exaggerated, think Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" or Jessica Walter in "Play Misty for Me."

I was married to a woman with BPD--pure, undiluted Hell.
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illiad
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by illiad »

'borderline' to most healthy people does not have medical overtones.. :roll:

it can be a very vague term.. usually among friends, meaning 'are they as nutty as you, or worse :lol: :lol: '

its a bit like a tennis player moaning about penalties or not, they said it was 'in' but you said 'no! i saw chalk dust!!!' very borderline, needs a stewards inquiry!!! :x '
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by zachariah »

BlackFulcrum wrote:Tho I'm still unwilling to say it for 100% (mostly because this a comic and Atsali is a mythical being), but the whole inability to empathize with others is an other indicator somewhat pointing towards a form of Autism.
While that is true, it is not the only reason people fail to empathize with others. Sociopaths are very good at it usually. Other disorders result in that as well. So we can't just point to one reason and assume that is it.

As I stated earlier it could be a survival trait for her type of predator. After all how much do you empathize with a steak you throw on the grill? I mean a cow had to die for you to get that stake! There are people who do and usually are vegetarians of some kind. The rest of use are just normal omnivorous. We can, and will, eat almost anything that doesn't poison us, or outfights us getting it into the pot.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by BlackFulcrum »

zachariah wrote:
BlackFulcrum wrote:Tho I'm still unwilling to say it for 100% (mostly because this a comic and Atsali is a mythical being), but the whole inability to empathize with others is an other indicator somewhat pointing towards a form of Autism.
While that is true, it is not the only reason people fail to empathize with others. Sociopaths are very good at it usually. Other disorders result in that as well. So we can't just point to one reason and assume that is it.

As I stated earlier it could be a survival trait for her type of predator. After all how much do you empathize with a steak you throw on the grill? I mean a cow had to die for you to get that stake! There are people who do and usually are vegetarians of some kind. The rest of use are just normal omnivorous. We can, and will, eat almost anything that doesn't poison us, or outfights us getting it into the pot.
I meant the failure to empathize combined with all the other things mentioned in the discussion of the last 3 pages seems to point to some form of autism, not failing to empathize on it's own.

Although it could be a survival trait of her type of predator, I somewhat doubt that, she is surrounded by other paranormals who seem to have a great deal of detailed knowledge of many other species of para's, and they haven't seem to have accounted for it.
Also Jessie, being a Mermaid, is said several times to be a similar type of predator as Sirens, seduction based, yet she is the one surprised at Atsali's reactions.
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DilyV
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by DilyV »

Bud or Tina might be her best bet for a mentor here... Jin was too unstable for too long and it too manipulative and Monica isn't the best for it either due to her own relationship issues (think what happened to Kevin over Jet...). Bud seems to be the most grounded at the moment... and well, Tina evolved into white wing... What surprised me the most about Tina is though she was a Covey of demons, she still took a higher path, wanting to see the good in people and to help out (hence the ability to read people and give them what they need... not so much what they wanted.)
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Jay-Em »

scantrontb wrote:
Jay-Em wrote:Indeed, as Brasten stated. Atsali is gonna need some sérious help. So much bitterness towards other people, even without actually knówing how those other people actually think about you, is aching to Borderline, or something. She sounds like my ex, who was álso convinced people only used her, and nothing could convince her of the opposite. (And she was later diagnosed with severe borderline with narcissistic tendencies.. Bad. News. I shóuld have known..But, to parafrase a Dutch proverb: "When Love is in the Man, His mind is in the can." :P )
um... what is "Borderline"? it sounds like you are forgetting a word in the sentences? ie diagnosed with severe borderline "what"? and if it is SEVERE then how can it be on the border, implying that it is NOT severe but JUST a little bit of whatever "it" is?
A bit of googling would have answered your questions, deary...
Borderline Personality Disorder is used to refer to a mental health issue that's between the borders of Psychosis and Neurosis.

And -as already stated by Dr Otter- living with a borderliner is a slowly evolving Living Hell. Me, being an asperger (though highly functioning) I had no clue when she was manipulating, if her smiles were false, or were sincere, éver. An uncertainty she was revelling in. It was her Power Trip. Attract, kick you away when you came close, attract again, kick away, stating she was sorry, and me -dumb-in-love-brick- falling for her shtick every time. Feeling sorry for her.

Add to that a narcissistic personality disorder (she was diagnosed áfter we split. Luckily I rán for my life&sanity after we split. Thank the gods her stalking ended after she moved, and had to fend for herself. )

All in all, don't go all grammar-smart*ss with me. I lived through Borderline Hell and (barely) survived mentally.
but, why 42?
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Dave
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Dave »

scantrontb wrote:um... what is "Borderline"? it sounds like you are forgetting a word in the sentences? ie diagnosed with severe borderline "what"? and if it is SEVERE then how can it be on the border, implying that it is NOT severe but JUST a little bit of whatever "it" is?
As others have said, "Borderline Personality Disorder"... a somewhat confusing term, but it's what the DSM calls it. A different name for it is "Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder".

By either name, it's characterized by extreme emotional lability and volatility. Those with BPD tend to swing to emotional extremes (love/hate/anger/depression) over what most people would consider very minor things, to behave very impulsively, and sometimes to dissociate ("zone out") as a way of avoiding emotionally-painful situations or memories. People with BPD often tend to have rather chaotic interpersonal relationships (to put it mildly). It's a fairly common condition, and is considered to be a serious mental illness... it's treatable but it's tough for both the client and the therapist. The causes are not well understood... some factors are probably heritable/genetic, and childhood traumas also seem to play a part in some cases.

As to whether Atsali suffers from BPD... I'm not a professional able to diagnose, but my hunch is "no". Her emotional volatility doesn't seem unusual for an adolescent. She's impulsive at times, but that's pretty normal for a kid her age. Her relationship with Castela can be stormy but (once again) seems well within the usual older-sister/brat sphere. She doesn't seem to be showing the extreme fear of abandonment and rejection which is often a major part of BPD, she's not shown signs of cutting of otherwise harming herself, and she is not visibly suicidal.

EDIT: my brain just served up the lyrics of Jackson Browne's beautiful ballad of love and change, "Fountain of Sorrow".

When you see through love's illusions
there lies the danger,
And your perfect lover
just looks like a perfect fool,
So you go running off
in search of a perfect stranger,
While the loneliness seems to spring from your life
like a fountain from a pool


Take this sort of painful moment of disillusionment and escape, crank it up to 11, make it an inescapable "all the time" thing... and that's sorta what I imagine it must be like living with BPD. Hard on the one who has it, and hard on everyone around him/her. The song ends well... the lives of those with BPD, not so much (a substantial percentage die of suicide)... but it is treatable and many do recover.

Fountain of sorrow, fountain of light
You've known that hollow sound of your own steps in flight
You've had to struggle, you've had to fight
To keep understanding and compassion in sight
You could be laughing at me, you've got the right
But you go on smiling so clear and so bright
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by DinkyInky »

BlackFulcrum wrote:
Oh and if it is Autism, you can't fix it, you can't teach someone with Autism to read facial expression and body language, they just can't, that part of the brain either doesn't work, or doesn't work well.
Maybe they can fix it in the Wapsi world with all it's magic, but in our world, nope.
I'm Autistic, and it took most of my life, but you can learn. It's sometimes the only way to survive.
Being a nerd is probably the only thing that helped me survive decades of bullying.
When people listened and learned I wasn't "showing off" and truly understood I did not get some of what goes on, and needed help, I made friends. They helped me learn how to read some of what people show. It's not perfect, but perfection is only for God. Every person on the spectrum is an individual. No two of us are alike. I line up french fries and my son lines up his race cars. I repeat things to people sometimes a hundred times before they tell me I'm doing it...and I might still do it. My son might repeat one thing he's obsessed on, and once you hear it and acknowledge it, he moves on.
He makes an airplane noise when stimming, I'll sway back and forth. We both get/got all A's and B's in everything but social skills. He's extroverted towards women but not men, I'm always introverted. We're both on the spectrum at the very high end.

Oh and kid, just one more thing; if you don't know how every person on the spectrum will behave 1,000%, don't bloody say it. Seriously, don't paint Autism into an impossible corner, otherwise you become the problem I and so many other folks on the spectrum have been fighting for a lifetime. You deserve better, we deserve better.

Going to back ofout of here now before I say something I don't exactly mean.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by AnotherFairportfan »

Dave wrote:Her relationship with Castela can be stormy but (once again) seems well within the usual older-sister/brat sphere. She doesn't seem to be showing the extreme fear of abandonment and rejection which is often a major part of BPD, she's not shown signs of cutting of otherwise harming herself, and she is not visibly suicidal.
Castela, OTOH, may be at risk for BPD, based on what Paul's shown us of her future, and her extreme reactions to things, like her (literally) dissociative reactions in the orphanage and at school.
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Dr. Otter
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Dr. Otter »

Dave wrote:As to whether Atsali suffers from BPD... I'm not a professional able to diagnose, but my hunch is "no".
No, she doesn't, just based on what we've seen. Several times she has acted selflessly, and there is no such thing as an unselfish act by someone with BPD.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Warrl »

BlackFulcrum wrote:I meant the failure to empathize combined with all the other things mentioned in the discussion of the last 3 pages seems to point to some form of autism, not failing to empathize on it's own.
I haven't seen that Atsali has a failure to empathize... when she recognizes the emotion.

She just has a less-than-human-normal ability to recognize the emotion in other people's faces. And of course she doesn't empathize with people when she has no clue what they are feeling. What is not clear is the nature and origin of that lack of ability.
Last edited by Warrl on Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Gyrrakavian »

shadowinthelight wrote:
Pardona wrote:Along the lines of surprising someone you speak their language that they think they can talk in behind your back.
Yo hago eso todo el tiempo. ;)
The joys of working retail or some other job where parents have their kids translate for them because they 'don't feel like speaking English'?

It's been a decade, so I'm a bit rusty.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Gyrrakavian »

AnotherFairportfan wrote:I will point out that, if Atsali is going to be a best-selling YA author, she'd better learn about emotions.
[Insert potshots at 'Twilight' and '50 Shades of Grey']
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Jackalkat »

Speaking as someone who grew up suffering under a Borderline Personality Disorder parent...Atsali isn't showing anything like that at all. I would be unable to read the comic if she was, to be blunt. She's demonstrating the emotional damage of someone who has never felt able to trust another person and worse, is unable to read their emotional states so is constantly worrying that she's upset them. And currently is demonstrating that her ears work just fine...
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by jwhouk »

That might be enough for her to realize that she needs Nadette more than Nadette needs her.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Gyrrakavian »

BlackFulcrum wrote:Tho I'm still unwilling to say it for 100% (mostly because this a comic and Atsali is a mythical being), but the whole inability to empathize with others is an other indicator somewhat pointing towards a form of Autism.
I myself have this, unless I've been trough the same thing, I can not empathize with you, at all.
I remember from my early high school days, a class mate breaking out in tears because his pet had died, and I just leaned away from him, cause I didn't understand what he was going trough and it was weird to me, so no comforting words from me telling him it will be okay or some such (this was way before my diagnosis), fast forward till I'm 28 and my own dog dies, now I'm really sad, and crying my eyes out, and even then it took to my Asperger diagnosis at age 31 and therapy that I put 2 and 2 together.

This is why people with autism often seem somewhat callous when something really bad happens in the world and it's shown on the news, where other people can imagine being in place of victims, the best you might get out of someone with Autism might be a very neutral "Oh that looks bad" or "Oh that's horrible", but it lacks the emotions to go with it, it's an automated response, because everyone else says how bad and horrible such events are, they must be, right? So you say what is expected, but actually feel emotions with it? Nope.

Also the last panel is a bit of an indicator, people with Autism can only decipher the emotions of those they have been near for a very long time, for everyone else it's just guesswork with clear facial expressions, it's near impossible for me to decipher if a person is actually smiling, faking a smile, or forcing a smile, or when a person is lying, or saying something in a sarcastic or joking manner, unless you have a giant huge grin on your face or giggling uncontrollably I won't know you're joking even if everyone else does, because of subtle facial expressions and body language, I will just assume what you say is serious and respond as such.
I can't remember how often that made me fall for a joke, even poor ones, just because I didn't pick up on the subtle clues.

Because of the odd responses people with autism give, because of the trouble with "reading" other people, people with Autism have few to no friends, as gaining, building, and maintaining any form of relationship, be it just friendship or romantic is hard, very hard, on both sides, because person with Autism will not react like a person without, which is what is usually expected.
Because you can't read strangers, you tend to avoid them if possible, and because you know people lie to get something, you tend to mistrust.
Losing touch with an acquaintance , co-worker, classmate, etc, on the other hand is very easy, if the reason you interact with those people on a regular basis disappears, don't expect much effort from the person with Autism to maintain that relationship.
Just like Atsali here, for me there's my parents, my brother, and my grandmother who are really close and important to me, then a few steps behind that my aunts, uncles, and cousins, and I would say behind that a few vague acquaintances but I haven't spoken to them in years, I don't have a group of friends, and never really had a "best friend".

Oh and if it is Autism, you can't fix it, you can't teach someone with Autism to read facial expression and body language, they just can't, that part of the brain either doesn't work, or doesn't work well.
Maybe they can fix it in the Wapsi world with all it's magic, but in our world, nope.
I don't suppose you happen to have also experienced a very distraught person(s) (that you barely know) seeking emotional comfort from you at a a funeral?
It happened to me at the last two funerals I went to.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Dave »

Jackalkat wrote:Speaking as someone who grew up suffering under a Borderline Personality Disorder parent...Atsali isn't showing anything like that at all.
Thanks for the first-hand confirmation, Jackalkat... and you have my condolences for what your childhood must have been like.

My wife is a therapist (Marriage and Family type). She told me years ago that if a potential client had BPD, she wouldn't take the case herself, but would refer the client to a specialist. It's apparently a tough and often-heartbreaking job helping somebody deal with those issues, even on a purely-professional basis... the burnout rate is high.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by scantrontb »

Dr. Otter wrote:
scantrontb wrote:um... what is "Borderline"? it sounds like you are forgetting a word in the sentences? ie diagnosed with severe borderline "what"? and if it is SEVERE then how can it be on the border, implying that it is NOT severe but JUST a little bit of whatever "it" is?
"Borderline Personality Disorder" is a serious mental health problem. "Borderline" is the name of the disorder, not a description of its severity. It's easier described by example. Although fantastically exaggerated, think Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" or Jessica Walter in "Play Misty for Me."

I was married to a woman with BPD--pure, undiluted Hell.
cool... NOW i understand, i just thought you forgot to put the "personality disorder" in the sentence, if you had put that in i would have gotten it right away, as i've heard of that and am vaguely knowledgeable of what happens with a person suffering from it... it's just like Iliad said, the word "borderline" doesn't mean BPD to most people right away, even AFTER we know are talking about mental problems... it's like trying to describe a rather famous building in New York, NY. as "Empire" ... people go "huh? when you REALLY should have said the "Empire State Building"... THAT makes it so much clearer, ya' know?

anyways, thanks for the info, i learned something new today!
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by Atomic »

Add me to the squad of forumites who's had to deal with a BPD loved one. And yes, Atsali is definitely not a BPD type -- she actually cares about the other people, and that's a big clue.

The BPD I had to deal with was the Witch/Waif type - all command, bluster, and endless bitchyness (dragging in any possible embarrassing personal detail as a weapon in any argument) alternating with the Helpless Crybaby who Can't Do Anything Right Please Forgive Me.

The big clue is the I Want What I Want - Now! point of view which is very much Not Atsali. I won't comment further on the emotion recognition blindness, but I doubt she fits the Narssistic or Bi-Polar personalities either.
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Re: Clueless Enough 2015-06-22

Post by BlackFulcrum »

DinkyInky wrote:I'm Autistic, and it took most of my life, but you can learn. It's sometimes the only way to survive.
Being a nerd is probably the only thing that helped me survive decades of bullying.
When people listened and learned I wasn't "showing off" and truly understood I did not get some of what goes on, and needed help, I made friends. They helped me learn how to read some of what people show. It's not perfect, but perfection is only for God. Every person on the spectrum is an individual. No two of us are alike. I line up french fries and my son lines up his race cars. I repeat things to people sometimes a hundred times before they tell me I'm doing it...and I might still do it. My son might repeat one thing he's obsessed on, and once you hear it and acknowledge it, he moves on.
He makes an airplane noise when stimming, I'll sway back and forth. We both get/got all A's and B's in everything but social skills. He's extroverted towards women but not men, I'm always introverted. We're both on the spectrum at the very high end.

Oh and kid, just one more thing; if you don't know how every person on the spectrum will behave 1,000%, don't bloody say it. Seriously, don't paint Autism into an impossible corner, otherwise you become the problem I and so many other folks on the spectrum have been fighting for a lifetime. You deserve better, we deserve better.

Going to back ofout of here now before I say something I don't exactly mean.
You are right, I went to far in my final assertion, you can actually work to some degree around your autism, trough therapy you can learn people to read facial expressions to some extent, to manage a lot of the pitfalls including building relationships with people, but it will always be a handicap, and there is no pill or injection that can cure it, you can manage part of it. (I think I was trying to get to the point of there being no magic pill, and ignored the rest)
And I think I know why I forgot, it's probably because I've probably forgone part of the therapy, mine was individual with the therapist, and I decided I didn't want to do the group therapy with others, because my diagnosis came at age 31, and I was pretty set in my nerdy, loner ways, because I was and still am unemployed without friends, and didn't and still don't feel the need to go "out there and meet new people".

But I've also said, nearly each time I posted in topics related to the current story line, that each case of Autism is individual, even if the same basic diagnosis on type and severity is made, the cases will differ, no two cases are the same, hence I used words like "most", "some", "often", "sometimes", I'm not pinning everything down on all people with autism, I'm just using what even a lot of professionals in the field use as the basis, as in "these combined factors can possibly point to a form of autism" and looking back I probably should have written that out like I do now, in each and every post just for clarity's sake
In the end we are trying to diagnose what seems to be some kind of neurological issue in a fictional character, and everyone is throwing disabilities, syndromes, and possible predator-prey interaction around to try and identify it, I just try bring what I know of my own condition to the table, and reason why it might apply to Atsali.
But I don't feel that trough that reasoning I've painted Autism into an impossible corner, even if I've made an error or two.

Also don't call me kid, I'm 34.
Gyrrakavian wrote:I don't suppose you happen to have also experienced a very distraught person(s) (that you barely know) seeking emotional comfort from you at a a funeral?
It happened to me at the last two funerals I went to.
Nope, can't help you there, I can empathize somewhat because I got very sad at my grandfather's funeral several years back, because he and I were close, but to have strangers seeking emotion comfort from me hasn't actually happened to me.
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