Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

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lake_wrangler
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by lake_wrangler »

Bookworm wrote:How many times have I seen a police officer giving any of them a ticket? Never.
Last fall, there were two policemen stationed outside of a subway station, waiting for pedestrians to cross the intersection illegally, and handing out tickets accordingly.

One such pedestrian lady that got caught was discussing it with the policeman, who mentioned one reason for this operation was to raise awareness for pedestrians of how dangerous it can be to cross an intersection on a red light, citing how there have been either 11 or 27 pedestrian deaths in the last year, because of such behavior. Her answer? Well, it's only 11 (or 27, I forget...) Tell that to their families, he replied... He couldn't believe her stubbornness at not wanting to change her behavior, and her callousness at the tragedy of those deaths.
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Bookworm »

DinkyInky wrote:I'd probably be a poor fit for that, because I'd tell them I have a "particular set of skills".

Oh, and as previously stated, yes, I always bring a knife to a gunfight.
Optimum knife range is the same as optimum handgun range.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Bookworm »

lake_wrangler wrote:
Bookworm wrote:How many times have I seen a police officer giving any of them a ticket? Never.
Last fall, there were two policemen stationed outside of a subway station, waiting for pedestrians to cross the intersection illegally, and handing out tickets accordingly.

One such pedestrian lady that got caught was discussing it with the policeman, who mentioned one reason for this operation was to raise awareness for pedestrians of how dangerous it can be to cross an intersection on a red light, citing how there have been either 11 or 27 pedestrian deaths in the last year, because of such behavior. Her answer? Well, it's only 11 (or 27, I forget...) Tell that to their families, he replied... He couldn't believe her stubbornness at not wanting to change her behavior, and her callousness at the tragedy of those deaths.
Bravo - I'd like to see that more down here, but that would involve getting them out of their cars and actually spending the day on foot.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
ShneekeyTheLost
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by ShneekeyTheLost »

Bookworm wrote:Optimum knife range is the same as optimum handgun range.
Who told you such a silly thing?

Optimum knife range is from 'in a grapple' to around five or ten feet. Optimum handgun range is 20-50 feet.

Handguns in melee are dangerous, because people still seem to think they can still pull the trigger and hit something relevant in a grapple. Having a handgun in hand in a grapple just means you're short one hand when it comes to applying joint locks. About the only thing it's good for at that point is a fist-load. A knife? Can slit a throat just fine.
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by jwhouk »

And the question has been answered.

Hop on the bus, Gus.
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"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Bookworm »

ShneekeyTheLost wrote:
Bookworm wrote:Optimum knife range is the same as optimum handgun range.
Who told you such a silly thing?

Optimum knife range is from 'in a grapple' to around five or ten feet. Optimum handgun range is 20-50 feet.

Handguns in melee are dangerous, because people still seem to think they can still pull the trigger and hit something relevant in a grapple. Having a handgun in hand in a grapple just means you're short one hand when it comes to applying joint locks. About the only thing it's good for at that point is a fist-load. A knife? Can slit a throat just fine.
Several folks, including at least two ex Special Forces (one from Korea and shortly after). 15 feet. In that range, someone with a knife can move to grapple range, and you have maximum accuracy in adrenaline combat with a handgun.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by jwhouk »

(blows dust off old POSC manual)
Weapon Control The presence of weapons offers another threat assessment opportunity. If a subject has a weapon of any kind, that obviously enhances the threat. In assessing the threat presented by a weapon, take into account that different weapons present different levels of danger (cf Massad Ayoob, Lethal Force Institute)

Weapon - Level of Dangerousness
FIrearm (projectile of bullets) - Most Dangerous
Knife or other edged weapons
Club (lever)
Unarmed - Least Dangerous

The danger zones of firearms and edged weapons vary depending on the effective ranges of specific weapons. The effective ranges of some common weapons are as follows:

Unarmed - 10 feet
Club or knife - 21 feet
Firearm - Line of sight unbroken by adequate cover

Here are more specific danger zones for particular kinds of weapons:
  • Projectiles: The area of danger is a straight line, the diameter of the projectile within the effective range of the weapon.
  • Edged weapons: The area of dangers is the tip of the weapon, the blade of the weapon, and the butt of the weapon in a "starburst" shape within the lunging range of the weapon.
  • Levers: Although a victim may be struck with any part of a lever, the primary area of danger is the tip and last four inches of the lever, where most of the force will be generated, at the end of an arc within the lunging range of the weapon.
The threat level presented by any weapon assault is dependent not only on the type of weapon but also on the following factors:
  • the distance the assailant is from the staff member
  • the skill level of the assailant
  • the force options available to the staff member
  • the ability of the staff member to disengage
  • other variables.
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
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Chaise Murphy
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Chaise Murphy »

Bookworm wrote: - in Houston, they've been destroying roads to put in bicycle lanes.
Speaking as an occasional cyclist, I hate cycle lanes.

They almost invariably put them in between the traffic lanes and any on-road parking, so you still run the risk of smacking into suddenly-opened doors and have to avoid cars pulling in and out of parks. They end just before intersections, so they don't exist where you most need them. And woe betide any cyclist who tries to ride in the vehicle lanes (say, to turn into a side road on the other side) - how dare you venture out of your cycle ghetto??

I've seen a very few which work well - positioned between the footpath and vehicle parks, wide, textured, and with separate cyclist lights to cross any roads in the way. Sadly, these are few and far between.
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Typeminer »

A year or two ago, I read somewhere--maybe here, even--that in the European countries where bicycle transportation has been big all along, vehicle, bicycle, and pedestrian traffic are on different levels. Like, there's a curb up from the street to the bike path, and another curb up to the sidewalk.

I ride a bike a lot in the nonfrozen seasons. They are cramming bike lanes into traffic in my city, too, and I think it's ridiculous. Better to ticket drivers who don't yield, and encourage bicyclists to use the side streets and midblock alleys, where traffic is slower and there is less of it.

And now that I think of it, I don't mind so much riding on some of the old unrestricted thru streets at rush hour, because they are wide streets and traffic doesn't get moving too fast because of the timing of the intersection lights. Try to drive over 30, and you'll just stop for the next light.

But I tell people who get upset about the lanes not to sweat it, because it's just paint on the street, no one will pay attention to it, and it'll wear off in a few years.
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Bookworm »

When I see cyclists behaving well, I give them all of the rights that they are issued by law, and often will go out of my way to try to assist (slowing so they can move lanes for a turn, etc). Unfortunately, I rarely see this. Most don't even seem to understand how to use arm signals. (The reason arm signals are done, classically, with the left arm is pretty simple. It's not because the brake is on the right. That's more of an effect than a cause. They're that way because early cars didn't have turn signals, and your -left arm- could go out the window. In driver's ed in the 80's, we were still even taught the arm signals in case the blinkers were somehow out)

Again, the top pet peeves of mine against cyclists are. 1) Riding the wrong way in traffic. 2) Failure to yield or stop at intersections, and 3) general 'don't give a shit' in traffic. That is, weaving around from lane to lane, hopping on and off the sidewalk (Pick a spot, guy?), and generally doing their best to get run over so they can sue someone.

I've been tempted to open my door - quickly - more than once.

"Oh, sorry - I didn't mean for you to run into my window."
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
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TazManiac
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by TazManiac »

When you spend more time 'in the saddle' than most Car Drivers do, the world become a lot less binary ("You're Doing It Wrong!!!").

That said, even with my Bicycler POV, I have less problem w/ bike riders 'breaking the rules' than I have with folks wobbling all the place, being unpredictable in their actions, and overall incompetent.

PS- I almost always signal (not doing so is a very rare abortion), either biking or driving.
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by DinkyInky »

Bookworm wrote:
ShneekeyTheLost wrote:
Bookworm wrote:Optimum knife range is the same as optimum handgun range.
Who told you such a silly thing?

Optimum knife range is from 'in a grapple' to around five or ten feet. Optimum handgun range is 20-50 feet.

Handguns in melee are dangerous, because people still seem to think they can still pull the trigger and hit something relevant in a grapple. Having a handgun in hand in a grapple just means you're short one hand when it comes to applying joint locks. About the only thing it's good for at that point is a fist-load. A knife? Can slit a throat just fine.
Several folks, including at least two ex Special Forces (one from Korea and shortly after). 15 feet. In that range, someone with a knife can move to grapple range, and you have maximum accuracy in adrenaline combat with a handgun.
My Daddy, who was a combat medic in a MASH Unit during Seoul during Vietnam, my Uncle, who was in the Jungle during Vietnam, and my Stepdad, also in the Jungle, during Vietnam would disagree with their assessment, as well as my sons Godmothers husband, who was in multiple tours during the last war, and all of them taught me a lot of self-defense tactics regarding gun v. knife.

While I was there for the Marine Corps Ball, one of the Gunny's at USMC Camp LeJeune back just after 9/11 also helped me with a few HTH v. firearm maneuvers when I expressed interest in how the military would teach self-defense courses to civilians if it ended up becoming a standard(that was a thing being considered after 9/11).
The next morning I found out. I also did said exercises in five-inch stilettos and a very fitted evening gown that I had worn to the Ball. He was rather shocked at how fast my shoes came off and became improvised weapons when he managed to knock the knife away(which was exactly one in ten attempts).

I also tried being the aggressor with the handgun(after changing to trainers, jeans and tee), and knife won every time shorter range, even when I did manage to "discharge" it(paint pistol), and that was when I was in my prime, with flawless reflexes and timing with firearms(I'd have to practise a bit to regain my edge). Most I did was wound an arm, and the knife wielder still got me with the off-hand.

Only with some distance/seconds with obstacles and expert training(and I had training), did the pistol ever win.
I cannot see an untrained person with a firearm winning in this scenario unless very lucky. Knives and other sharp objects make very effective improvised weapons.

These are just my experiences, and I unfortunately did have to utilise them quite a few times after training(that was one of the hazards of working in places like Gary and Cabrini Green), and am eternally grateful for all of that training.

It's also why I'm always pushing for firearms training and safety before ownership, and for mandatory self-defense training of our youth.
Yanno how some people have Angels/Devils for a conscience? I have a Dark Elf ShadowKnight and a Half Elf Ranger for mine. The really bad part is when they agree on something.

Aphyon chu kissa whol l'jaed.
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DinkyInky
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by DinkyInky »

Bookworm wrote:When I see cyclists behaving well, I give them all of the rights that they are issued by law, and often will go out of my way to try to assist (slowing so they can move lanes for a turn, etc). Unfortunately, I rarely see this. Most don't even seem to understand how to use arm signals. (The reason arm signals are done, classically, with the left arm is pretty simple. It's not because the brake is on the right. That's more of an effect than a cause. They're that way because early cars didn't have turn signals, and your -left arm- could go out the window. In driver's ed in the 80's, we were still even taught the arm signals in case the blinkers were somehow out)

Again, the top pet peeves of mine against cyclists are. 1) Riding the wrong way in traffic. 2) Failure to yield or stop at intersections, and 3) general 'don't give a shit' in traffic. That is, weaving around from lane to lane, hopping on and off the sidewalk (Pick a spot, guy?), and generally doing their best to get run over so they can sue someone.

I've been tempted to open my door - quickly - more than once.

"Oh, sorry - I didn't mean for you to run into my window."
Early cars also didn't have seatbelts, mirrors, and many other things motorists take for granted these days.

Regarding biking the wrong way. They've changed the rules a lot in the last four decades. It uses to be the law to ride against traffic so "they could see you". I grew up with that, and it took new town and a ticket to learn that(and I proved that with ye olde bicyclists manual from old town when I paid said ticket, then picked up an updated copy of that and the state drivers manual--should be done every few years to keep up with current law.).

Without the mandatory extended rules in place for bike safety; lights, reflectors, clothes...it was very dangerous. Some states still have that as the official way to bike when no bike lanes are present.

They need a unified rulebook for biking nationwide, including lights, reflectors, clothing, proper areas to bike.

But I can see why it's aggravating.
Yanno how some people have Angels/Devils for a conscience? I have a Dark Elf ShadowKnight and a Half Elf Ranger for mine. The really bad part is when they agree on something.

Aphyon chu kissa whol l'jaed.
--Safyr Drathmir
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by jwhouk »

As to the bike/pedestrian question: apparently I moved to the state with the most pedestrian deaths per-capita.

And going back on topic: I have a landscaping guy coming Saturday to do triage on both the orange and grapefruit tree - and the palm tree (picture of said palm tree here).
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
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jwhouk
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by jwhouk »

Oh, would you look at that: Peter Yarrow and Noel Paul Stookey are playing at the Mesa Arts Center on the 23rd.
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
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DinkyInky
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by DinkyInky »

jwhouk wrote:As to the bike/pedestrian question: apparently I moved to the state with the most pedestrian deaths per-capita.

And going back on topic: I have a landscaping guy coming Saturday to do triage on both the orange and grapefruit tree - and the palm tree (picture of said palm tree here).
Pretty. What's wrong with it, other than a need to transplant the babies? Looks like it's been kept up rather well.
Yanno how some people have Angels/Devils for a conscience? I have a Dark Elf ShadowKnight and a Half Elf Ranger for mine. The really bad part is when they agree on something.

Aphyon chu kissa whol l'jaed.
--Safyr Drathmir
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jwhouk
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by jwhouk »

DinkyInky wrote:
jwhouk wrote:As to the bike/pedestrian question: apparently I moved to the state with the most pedestrian deaths per-capita.

And going back on topic: I have a landscaping guy coming Saturday to do triage on both the orange and grapefruit tree - and the palm tree (picture of said palm tree here).
Pretty. What's wrong with it, other than a need to transplant the babies? Looks like it's been kept up rather well.
There are some weeds at the base that need to be trimmed back. Other than that, nothing much. I was told by my father-in-law not to reach into any openings, because scorpions like to make nests in there.

The two fruit trees are the ones that worry me. They need to be cut way back, which will probably mean no fruit for a while. :(
"Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
"You should never run from the voices in your head. That's how you give them power." - Jin
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Catawampus
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Catawampus »

DinkyInky wrote:
Bookworm wrote:
ShneekeyTheLost wrote:Who told you such a silly thing?

Optimum knife range is from 'in a grapple' to around five or ten feet. Optimum handgun range is 20-50 feet.

Handguns in melee are dangerous, because people still seem to think they can still pull the trigger and hit something relevant in a grapple. Having a handgun in hand in a grapple just means you're short one hand when it comes to applying joint locks. About the only thing it's good for at that point is a fist-load. A knife? Can slit a throat just fine.
Several folks, including at least two ex Special Forces (one from Korea and shortly after). 15 feet. In that range, someone with a knife can move to grapple range, and you have maximum accuracy in adrenaline combat with a handgun.
My Daddy, who was a combat medic in a MASH Unit during Seoul during Vietnam, my Uncle, who was in the Jungle during Vietnam, and my Stepdad, also in the Jungle, during Vietnam would disagree with their assessment, as well as my sons Godmothers husband, who was in multiple tours during the last war, and all of them taught me a lot of self-defense tactics regarding gun v. knife.

While I was there for the Marine Corps Ball, one of the Gunny's at USMC Camp LeJeune back just after 9/11 also helped me with a few HTH v. firearm maneuvers when I expressed interest in how the military would teach self-defense courses to civilians if it ended up becoming a standard(that was a thing being considered after 9/11).
The next morning I found out. I also did said exercises in five-inch stilettos and a very fitted evening gown that I had worn to the Ball. He was rather shocked at how fast my shoes came off and became improvised weapons when he managed to knock the knife away(which was exactly one in ten attempts).

I also tried being the aggressor with the handgun(after changing to trainers, jeans and tee), and knife won every time shorter range, even when I did manage to "discharge" it(paint pistol), and that was when I was in my prime, with flawless reflexes and timing with firearms(I'd have to practise a bit to regain my edge). Most I did was wound an arm, and the knife wielder still got me with the off-hand.

Only with some distance/seconds with obstacles and expert training(and I had training), did the pistol ever win.
I cannot see an untrained person with a firearm winning in this scenario unless very lucky. Knives and other sharp objects make very effective improvised weapons.

These are just my experiences, and I unfortunately did have to utilise them quite a few times after training(that was one of the hazards of working in places like Gary and Cabrini Green), and am eternally grateful for all of that training.

It's also why I'm always pushing for firearms training and safety before ownership, and for mandatory self-defense training of our youth.
Knife vs. gun at close range is really a complicated thing, depending on all sorts of variables. How are they sheathed/holstered, and where? Does the gun have a round already chambered? How well trained is each person in the use of whichever weapon they end up using?

Also, you end up going with muscle-memory and automatically reaching for one or the other. If you automatically reach for the gun, then using the gun will be faster because you don't have to over-ride your reflexes to go for the knife instead. If you automatically reach for the knife, then it's the other way around.

So in the end, any number of things can add or subtract a fraction of a second, and there's usually no way to take the time then and there to calculate and make a choice. So just pick one or the other well before you get into that sort of a situation, and practice a lot with whichever you chose.
jwhouk wrote:I was told by my father-in-law not to reach into any openings, because scorpions like to make nests in there.
They probably battle with the venomous spiders for the choice real estate.
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Bookworm
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Bookworm »

DinkyInky wrote: Regarding biking the wrong way. They've changed the rules a lot in the last four decades. It uses to be the law to ride against traffic so "they could see you". I grew up with that, and it took new town and a ticket to learn that(and I proved that with ye olde bicyclists manual from old town when I paid said ticket, then picked up an updated copy of that and the state drivers manual--should be done every few years to keep up with current law.).

Without the mandatory extended rules in place for bike safety; lights, reflectors, clothes...it was very dangerous. Some states still have that as the official way to bike when no bike lanes are present.

They need a unified rulebook for biking nationwide, including lights, reflectors, clothing, proper areas to bike.

But I can see why it's aggravating.
Well, forty years ago, I was taught that the state law was ride -with- traffic, reflectors were mandatory - but not the rest of the weird gear - and that the general rule of thumb was 2/3rds of the -right- side of the lane was for the bicycle. If you had multiple bicycles, the front one was on the right, then the second one was to be behind and to the left of the front, so they sort of imitated the rear lights of a car. You staggered your bikes. (I believe motorcycles are supposed to also follow this)

Mind you, by 10 years later, when the bikers would use our local road as part of their Saturday mass bikeathon (every Saturday), they'd ride in a continuous single stream. Probably because there were so many of them that passing fully in the opposing lane would be very difficult, if not dangerous. THEY always rode with traffic, in their tight trousers, many with helmets and mirrors. Sunday was the motorcycle run. Amazingly similar, except one was Spanex and Lycra, and the other was Denim and Dead Animals. Because Dead Animals protect better than Lycra and Spandex.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
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Catawampus
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Re: Anyone Want Some Grapefruit?

Post by Catawampus »

Bookworm wrote:Because Dead Animals protect better than Lycra and Spandex.
But seeing as how the animals weren't protection enough for themselves, what with them now being dead and all, it would be more logical to wear live animals!
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