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Atomic
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Re: More Stuff

Post by Atomic » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:04 pm

Thanks to my aviation engineering/test pilot (WWII - 1950s) Dad, and helping build, rebuild, and fix damn near everything in and near the house that had moving parts, when I took the Military ASVAB test for entering the USAF, there was only One Tool I did not recognize in the Mechanical Aptitude part of the test (out of many dozen illustrations). Scored a 99% on that section. Forget what it was, but found it in a catalog, and was one of a very few I hadn't used to work on something. Something specialty, like a spark plug wire puller or square hole drill (knew both of those).
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AnotherFairportfan
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Re: More Stuff

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:43 pm

I have always loved the fact that there exists a drill that makes square holes.
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Re: More Stuff

Post by Sgt. Howard » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:09 am

AnotherFairportfan wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:43 pm
I have always loved the fact that there exists a drill that makes square holes.
Essentially a hollow broach with an internal auger bit- it takes a specialized drill press to run it. Very handy to those who make spoked wooden wheels.
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Re: More Stuff

Post by Atomic » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:09 am

Also handy for decorative square peg corner connectors for various furniture and drawers!
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Re: More Stuff

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:17 am

Sgt. Howard wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:09 am
AnotherFairportfan wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:43 pm
I have always loved the fact that there exists a drill that makes square holes.
Essentially a hollow broach with an internal auger bit- it takes a specialized drill press to run it. Very handy to those who make spoked wooden wheels.
There's another type than can be used with a hand drill {with an attachment, apparently}, though i suspect it may be a tad difficult to control.

I ran across a mention - and a brief explanation of how it works - in an editorial by John W Campbell jr in ANALOG about 1960; so, as soon as square drills came up here, i went looking for information

It's a Reuleaux triangle {the simplest constant-width figure other than a circle - the shape of a Wankel engine rotor) made concave in three places to allow for unobstructed corner-cutting {and discharge of swarf}. It actually makes slightly rounded corners, but that cn be cleaned up.
.
square-hole-14-728.jpg
square-hole-14-728.jpg (88.97 KiB) Viewed 973 times
===========================

The first time i came across a mention of the Reuleaux triangle, was also in ANALOG in about 1960 - a story by Poul Anderson called "The Three-Cornered Wheel", in which stranded human space-travelers need to move a Very Heavy piece of machinery from a spaceport hundreds of miles away from their ship. They have no powered equipment capable of the feat, either at their ship or at the spaceport.

The natives, who have had very little contact with humans, are willing to supply any amount of muscle to move it - but dragging it along the ground just won't work

Okay, says the human captain, we'll just make rollers out of trees - shaped like this... And their native contact panics.

In their religion {it's a theocratic society} the circle is sacred, and only priests are even allowed to seecircles.

{Yeah - i know - ridiculous, but Anderson manages to spout enough bafflegab to get the reader to suspend disbelief}

Well, of course, they make Reuleaux rollers, which will work just like round ones {for certain values of "just like"}, and the machinery gets to the ...

=================

In 1975 Anderson was Guest of Honor at the first RiverCon in Louisville. Sitting around in the convention Hospitality Suite, a bunch of fans, Anderson, his wife and Gordon R Dickson, who'd come along with them, engaged in a wide-ranging discussion of Stuff. Somebody mentioned "The Three-Cornered Wheel", and there was discussion.

Finally, i said, diffidently, "It wouldn't work, you know."

Karen Anderson said "Yes it would! He made one and it worked when he rolled it on his desk."

I allowed as how it would.

On the desk top.

Which was hard.

And the roller wasn't heavily loaded.

Now imagine using a bunch of them as rollers under a thing that weighs several tons.

On a world with no - zero, zip, nada - paved roads?

Moving a Very Heavy Object?

Round rollers would work; Reuleaux rollers wouldn't - because every time one turned to the point where one of the vertices was down, the weight on it would sink it into the ground.

Moment Of Silence

Anderson and Dickson looked at each other.

Gordy grinned.

Anderson said "Son of a bitch! Fifteen years since that story was published and this is the first time anybody's pointed that out!"
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Dave
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Re: More Stuff

Post by Dave » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:35 am

AnotherFairportfan wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:17 am
Anderson said "Son of a bitch! Fifteen years since that story was published and this is the first time anybody's pointed that out!"
That's definitely a gotcha! :D

You're right. Their method would work only on a very hard surface... smooth rock, or a hard-paved road. Wouldn't work on dirt.

So, in the end, I guess the intrepid space travellers would have failed in their attempt to turn their abstract problem into a concrete solution.

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Re: More Stuff

Post by Atomic » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:03 am

Solution: Make the rollers spiral. Then the sharp vertex would be down only over a small area compared to the length of the roller.
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Re: More Stuff

Post by Dave » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:24 pm

Atomic wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:03 am
Solution: Make the rollers spiral. Then the sharp vertex would be down only over a small area compared to the length of the roller.
As a physical solution that would probably work (hell to manufacture, though).

As a social solution (in the case mentioned) it might not. If you looked at the rollers end-on, they would appear to have a circular cross-section, and this would probably have offended local mores. The priests would likely have declared the roller to be blasphemous, unholy, and twisted.

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Re: More Stuff

Post by Warrl » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:48 pm

Well, it would be hard to argue against "twisted"...

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Re: More Stuff

Post by Atomic » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:02 pm

You can't please some people.
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Re: More Stuff

Post by Atomic » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:20 pm

Regarding discussions earlier:

Image
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Re: More Stuff

Post by lake_wrangler » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:22 pm

Atomic wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:20 pm
Regarding discussions earlier:

Image
My first outloud laugh of the day...

Thank you for that. :D


Definitely not a Mr Roger (please, won't you be my neighbour) kind of vibe coming off this particular Tux... :P

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Re: More Stuff

Post by lake_wrangler » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:53 pm

AnotherFairportfan wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:01 pm
lake_wrangler wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:26 pm
I love this one:
> Linux is not user-friendly.
It _is_ user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly and idiot-friendly. - Seen somewhere on the net
That is the elitist attitude of the kind of Linux-head who, when asked by a newbie for help, spouts a string of CLI-based bafflegab that you'd have to be at least familar with the CLI ... and insults you and says "Go back to Windoze!" when you say "Wot?" or when you ask if there might be a way to do it using the GUI.
Well, yes and no. I think.

There are indeed a (probably very large) number of Linux users who are indeed elitist and who despise and denigrate anyone who is not on par with their level of knowledge (I guess they forget they were not boorn as Uber-users). And they definitely will hold this kind of discourse.

But the fact remains that Linux is not self-explanatory, and that you need to have some form of computer literacy and understanding in order to run it. You need to know how to ask the right questions, in order to get the answers you need. Absolute "noobs" (and I don't mean any disrespect, here) will have a hard time running Linux. That may be unfortunate, if people ever want Linux to make headways into the desktop world. Of course, said elitist might not want Linux to become too popular, as it would water down the brand, as it were. Well, screw them! If Linux is a better operating system, it needs to be more accessible and known to people.

Fortunately, there are more people on forums who are more forgiving of "lesser" users asking questions. After all, asking questions is how one gains knowledge and experience.


AnotherFairportfan wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:01 pm
The kind who would wear a t-shirt saying
Real programmers don't comment. It was hard to write, it should be hard to understand
...and not recognise the irony
People who are in deep into whatever they're into will often not realize how they sound to other people or realize the fallacies, whatever they may be, of their position.

AnotherFairportfan wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:01 pm
People who consider Linux their own little club, and feel that it becoming popular cheapens it - the same attitude i watched Betamax fanatics giving VHS users, or iThing users giving Android users when an app that had been their own private playground was opened up for Android.

"Oh, god - who let all this dreary common riff raff into our Sacred Precincts?"
It is an unfortunate fact that there will be snobs in most fiels of thought/life. Of course, reverse-snobism, for lack of a better word, also exists, who look down on people who look down on others because of the fact they are looking down on others... And that's just about as logical a position to have... :P
AnotherFairportfan wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:01 pm
P{Right now, i have a Linux partition on this machine - primarily for playing a game i haven't been able to find a decent Windows version of. Tell me where i can find a decent Windows implementation of Shisen-Sho, and i may not log into Linux again for months, if ever.}
I have the exact opposite attitude, with my computer: I run Linux most of the time, appreciating its moldability, its customization factor, its general robustness, and the fact that there isn't a parent company spying on you at the operating system level, telling you "our way of the highway". (One might just say that, when confronted with that, I chose "the highway"... :P ) The only times I use Linux is for a rare few software that don't work well in Linux (or have fewer features in the Linux version), such as teleconferencing software (ooVoo, at first, then Skype, and now ZOOM), or to work on my friend's MS Access database. I've tried to get MS Office to run in Linux, and I think I did manage to run it, once, but not all the functionality was working, and so I could not do what needed to be done. Find me a way to get those working properly in Linux, and I would not bother with Windows...


Anyway, as I hope this post illustrate, I hold what I hope is a reasonably nuanced opinion of Linux. I am definitely not one of the elitists AnotherFairporfan alludes to, but I am not a complete noob - this time perhaps a little bit derogatory, but not meant to be insulting, either - and can see the use for a middle-of-the-road position.



But I still find the original quote to be amusing. :mrgreen:

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Re: More Stuff

Post by Atomic » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:22 pm

After doing some research, my first intro to Linux was through Knoppix, a version which came with it's own nice book and install disk. I got the general gist of it pretty quickly as I had plenty of programming experience with Applesoft, Forth, Pascal, and some other environments.

Then, I tried actually installing a new program I wanted to use. Didn't have a flipping clue. Did I create a new directory for FooBar then try sudo FooBar? No dice. Did I have to change directory to /foobar, then try sudo again? Was there a magic word to enable FooBar, then sudo?

So I ask on a Linux discussion group. Got nothing but "Burn the Noob" type responses. To hell with that.

Never did figure it out, or how to actually update anything. Book didn't discuss it clearly enough for my ignorant self, so it went away.
Don't let other peoples limitations become your constraints!

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Re: More Stuff

Post by lake_wrangler » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:47 pm

Atomic wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:22 pm
Got nothing but "Burn the Noob" type responses. To hell with that.
I guess they were never noobs, themselve, then... :roll:
Atomic wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:22 pm
Never did figure it out, or how to actually update anything. Book didn't discuss it clearly enough for my ignorant self, so it went away.
That's the problem with software made by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts...

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Re: More Stuff

Post by Warrl » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:25 pm

lake_wrangler wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:53 pm
The only times I use Linux is for a rare few software that don't work well in Linux (or have fewer features in the Linux version), such as teleconferencing software (ooVoo, at first, then Skype, and now ZOOM), or to work on my friend's MS Access database. I've tried to get MS Office to run in Linux, and I think I did manage to run it, once, but not all the functionality was working, and so I could not do what needed to be done. Find me a way to get those working properly in Linux, and I would not bother with Windows...
PlayOnLinux knows how to install MS Office 2007 so nearly everything in Word, Excel, and Powerpoint (dunno why you'd want that) work... but not Access. (Drat!)

I think I once found instructions for installing Access2007 so it would sorta somewhat work, but I haven't been able to find them again.

Can't comment on other versions of Office 'cause the only other version I actually have is Office2000, and why would I install that when I have Office2007?

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Re: More Stuff

Post by lake_wrangler » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:11 am

Warrl wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:25 pm
PlayOnLinux knows how to install MS Office 2007 so nearly everything in Word, Excel, and Powerpoint (dunno why you'd want that) work... but not Access. (Drat!)

I think I once found instructions for installing Access2007 so it would sorta somewhat work, but I haven't been able to find them again.

Can't comment on other versions of Office 'cause the only other version I actually have is Office2000, and why would I install that when I have Office2007?
My friend likes to keep up with Office versions... so he's using Office 2016, right now, and he provides me with a copy to work with.

I've tried installing MS Office 2010 or 13, I forget which, with PlayOnLinux, and it didn't quite work properly. And not at all for Access, if I recall... :(

But the strength of our friendship is worth the small hassle of working in Windows for his database. :D

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Re: More Stuff

Post by Atomic » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:16 am

Part of why I wanted to install Linux in the first place was to learn and play with Apache/MySQL.

Database, database, wherefore art thou database?
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Re: More Stuff

Post by Warrl » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:04 pm

Hm... I appear to have hsqldb, mariadb (never heard of it before), virtuoso (ditto), postgresql, sqlite, and mysql all installed.

And whatever libreoffice-base uses by default, if it isn't on that list.

Also some tools for working with an MSAccess .mdb database. Even though I currently can't run Access.

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Re: More Stuff

Post by Alkarii » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Well, I seem to have some good news: if I only use my credit card instead of my debit card for the next few weeks, I could save up enough money in my account to pay off my loan before the next payment is due. I discovered this yesterday when I went to make a payment because I thought I was cutting it kinda close... turns out, I had already made this month's payment back on the 3rd. After that, I only have to worry about catching up on the credit card. It won't be quite as fast, but it'll be fast enough.

In the meantime, I'm thinking I might look into seeing if there's any schools that teach machining that don't require me to relocate.
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