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GlytchMeister
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Post by GlytchMeister »

Re: Intended purpose of the 2nd Amendment: Wasn’t the “duty to throw off such tyrrany and replace it with a better government” technically removed from the people?

There’s a lot of obscure Supreme Court rulings and legislative laws that have really twisted the original spirit of the laws of the land.

I do, however, strongly agree and will always support that function of the right to bear arms - government should be afraid of the people it governs. The other way around is tyrrany.

Another (albeit somewhat outdated) function is to provide the United States with a sort of backup military in case the main one failed to repel a conventional invasion. Nowadays, this is somewhat rendered obsolete by nuclear weaponry, but I would say it’s still something to be concerned about in places like Hawaii, Midway, Alaska, Guam, etc. Basically, it’s the made-up quote advising not to invade the US because you’ll find a rifle behind every blade of grass.

However, there is a little clause right at the beginning that I think we are missing big time: “Well-Regulated” as applied to the militia that is created by arming the civilian population.

I realize there are outliers and such, but in general, the level of training, physical fitness, and certification required to obtain a gun, especially a near-mil-spec weapon, is vastly inferior to our military’s Basic training. I realize there will be exceptions, like people in wheelchairs or something who would like a pistol for defense. That can be accounted for with a bit of extra paperwork.
But overall, I think there would be a dramatic fall in accidental gun deaths (a point of contention among anti-gun people), as well as a reduction in gun violence.

My reasoning here comes from my martial arts training - My senseis made real damned sure everyone they taught understood that the enhanced capabilities they gained through the training were only to be used in defense of yourself or others... and they would refuse to train anyone if they didn’t get this through their skull. A good sensei will not empower a bully with enhanced capabilities to inflict harm or death. First, they would try to get the bully to straighten out their moral compass... and failing that, they send the bully home.

What I’m thinking is everyone, barring those who have a medical or otherwise acceptable excuse, must go pass basic military level training in physical fitness, hand to hand, armed CQC, firearm maintenance, firearm safety and rules of engagement, marksmanship, and situational awareness (both along the lines of “watch out for orphanages behind the thug” as well as “keep your head on a swivel and know an ambush when you see one”)... and their trainers, many of whom I think would probably be veterans (hey, increased employment of vets, that’s good), will be able to decide to refuse to train someone themselves or at the recommendation of a psychologist partnered with them. The individuals refused will be able to appeal just to make sure there’s oversight.

And, to further match the military, I believe there is a thing called “pool functions?” Basically, training sessions that are made to keep non-deployed military personnel in “ready to deploy” condition, I think.

Do something similar - people who have weapons must periodically re-certify. The more advanced and quantitatively-determined-dangerous your weapon is, the stricter the re-certification requirements are. So, a Glock (the McGun) would probably only need renewal every three years or something, while a high-power assault rifle or sniper rifle with nightscope or a high-quality pistol with a suppressor would require renewed certification every six months. Cops with badges are held to the same standards.

This won’t catch every psycho, but it’ll increase chances of catching them, and will ensure lots of others are not only armed, but highly trained and thus far more capable of dealing with the threat. There are cases where concealed carriers don’t actually use their weapon to thwart a shooter or other criminal.

Additional benefits include an enormous damn-near ready-to-deploy population - both a major stopgap against tyranny and a huge deterrent against conventional invasion. You also employ a whole bunch of vets and psychologists, and you instill a much higher level of training into cops, who have a bit of a major problem with “Rules of Engagement.”
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GlytchMeister
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Post by GlytchMeister »

You’d also probably make a noticeable dent in obesity rates...
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Alkarii
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Post by Alkarii »

What's funny is that in the reference material I had created for my Sci fi writing (which I'd neglected for the past couple years, unfortunately) had contained compulsory military-level training for all of the able-bodied and morally acceptable citizens (as in, not criminals) during times of war.

I had considered mentioning that little fact that we are supposed to be the militia that is a back up of the military, but for some reason forgot about it as I was writing that last post, but I think it's because of this that a lot of those militias you occasionally hear about aren't bothered by law enforcement, except in certain cases, such as being seditious.
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Atomic
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Post by Atomic »

Re: Guns vs Knives at close range -- Google the 21 foot rule.

Mythbusters episode here.

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Post by TazManiac »

I'm going to have to bone up on the Swiss Model, but the common knowledge ('everybody knows'...) is that there is compulsory Citizen training and a maintaining of Readiness.

I like the 'Every Citizen is going to perform a Compulsory Benefit to Society'.

I am also a very big fan of the idea that we don't train nor expect enough proficiency from Citizens. (That goes for Driving as well.)
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Post by Typeminer »

Very thoughtful exchange here, folks. Too much to comment on point by point, so I'll just make a few observations.

Universal compulsory military training is a defensible policy for a democratic republic, in my view. Much as I love Marxist (i.e., Grouchovian) and anarchist (Nobody for President! There's no government like no government!) political theory as a tool of satire, I take citizenship in a republic seriously. Serious thinkers for a thousand years said republics can't work over the long haul, and we've still got some lifting to do to prove them wrong. Universal compulsory public service would help to break the bubbles people are tending to shelter in now.

Regarding the 1787 Constitution and the right to bear arms, my understanding is that the colonists were compelled to bivouac Crown soldiers in their homes but could themselves be forbidden to own firearms. Under the new Federal Republic, citizens were themselves to be the militia, so their right to bear arms was constitutional. (And in early Federal times, militia day was a grand occasion to go to town, muck around with rifles for a morning, and then drink all afternoon, much as in Switzerland today. But that's another sidebar.)

I would also observe that many opponents of open-carry laws, etc., take the view that civilized peoples do not, in daily life, arm themselves for combat to go out for pizza and beer.

Glytch makes a good point about really preparing for self-defense vs. just packing heat. Myself, I'm not a fighter. Never been any good at it. Either I'm a mutant, or a lot of my forebears survived by avoiding fights. I've got scars all over my hands from a lifetime of fumbling kitchen knives. I'm not afraid of guns, but if I carried one everywhere, I'd end up shooting myself in the ass. (A friend who is a retired federal agent once told me that one of things that professionals who carry sidearms do not talk about in public is how often professionals who carry sidearms accidentally drop them in toilets.) I see a lot of the mania for carrying arms as a push for vigilantism with impunity (He made me nervous, so I shot him) for some people.

I agree that racial differences do not exist (or are superficial) as a matter of biological fact. But I have come to understand that in the USA, white people get away with thoughtless indulgence in all kinds of behaviors, of both great and trivial import, that get everyone else thrown into prison. I think that is the correct way to consider questions of injustice and of people's reactions to injustice. And about this, I do not joke.
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Alkarii
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Post by Alkarii »

These past few days, I've been considering that my next "big purchase" will be the things necessary for a little independent film project.

What I intend to do is document myself doing research on a lot of the hot button issues (guns, drugs, crime, all that), and I intend to skip the news as a source, except to point out any fallacies, such as that one news clip from NBC 4 out of Columbus, Ohio, showing the damage an AR-15 can do to a watermelon, but showing someone using a 12 gauge shotgun to do the job.

I'm also going to share how to find the information (like crime statistics and such), so if someone wants to verify or dispute what I find, they can do so. Maybe I'll even try to get in touch with actual experts to weigh in, like professors, criminologists, and maybe even some folks in law enforcement, at various levels.

No idea what all I might find, but, well, it might be a bit more informative (or at least more honest) than the media. No advertisers to please, and no political bias being pushed from higher up the ladder.

(I couldn't remember if I had actually finished that sentence earlier, or if I had anything I intended to add after that.)
Last edited by Alkarii on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lake_wrangler »

Alkarii wrote:These past few days, I've been considering that my next "big purchase" will be the things necessary for a little independent film project. What I intend to do is document myself doing research on a lot of the hot button issues (guns, drugs, crime, all that), and I intend to skip the news as a source,
[...]
Good luck with your project, I wish you the best. Take your time (it's not like the issues will disappear anytime soon), and do it well.
Alkarii wrote:No idea what all I might find, but, well, it might be a bit more informative (or at least more honest) than the media.
And most likely with more integrity, too, if you go into it with that attitude.
Alkarii wrote:No advertisers to please, an
Was there more to your sentence, that might have gotten cut, by any chance?
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GlytchMeister
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Post by GlytchMeister »

I think the additional training, especially the bit where the trainer emulates my old senseis in saying “only in defense of self and others”, is one way to counteract the vigilantism with impunity risk. Another MAJOR way is by requiring cops to be highly trained. There have been incidents where nobody passed the final exam to become a cop, so the department made the test easier or just completely got rid of it.

That’s the kind of crap that really ends up spawning vigilantes - a grossly ineffective or corrupt or morally bankrupt police force.

If you have an effective, clean, and moral police force, one that turns away people who try to join just so they can bully people and get away with it via having a badge, and one that is actually sworn and required to protect and serve and help in an emergency (because nowadays, a cop can just watch while someone get mugged and murdered and not do anything to save the victim)... I think a fair few potential vigilantes would not have the impetus to start. Granted, some just want to beat people up and feel good about it, or circumvent the justice system because they think they know better, and there’s not much that can be done to prevent them. Education, maybe.
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Post by Alkarii »

Whoops! What the hell happened to the rest of my post?! Let me see if I can find my train of thought again, and do a bit of errata.
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Post by Alkarii »

Oh crap... This has a bunch of implications, and none of them are good.

I think whichever manager had closing duty is gonna get fired...

And that's the store where I bought the green flashlight for my rifle.
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GlytchMeister
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Post by GlytchMeister »

Alkarii wrote:Oh crap... This has a bunch of implications, and none of them are good.

I think whichever manager had closing duty is gonna get fired...

And that's the store where I bought the green flashlight for my rifle.
Oh for fuck’s sake...
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Post by Alkarii »

Yup. So it wouldn't have mattered if Arkansas had stricter gun laws or not, regarding purchase. Even if this state had a ban on AR-15s and other semiautomatic rifles capable of accepting a higher capacity magazine, there were still PLENTY of guns he could have stolen.

Hopefully the worst he plans to do is keep them for himself, and not go on a spree somewhere or sell them to someone who will use them for some kind of violent crime.
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Post by jwhouk »

Yeah, that'll happen.

Not.
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Post by Alkarii »

Yeah, most likely an armed robbery or an illegal sale, followed by a drive by shooting. Hopefully there won't be any kind of major incident.
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Post by Atomic »

Boots don't make you a General, a hat don't make you a Cowboy, and a gun don't make you a Man.

Everybody has a right to defend themselves, but few make an effort to practice how. Mere familiarity with weapons and firearms from sport and hunting mean very little in a surprise armed combat situation. That's why a "Well Regulated" militia is guarantor of our freedom -- the darn thing works when it needs to! The phrase dates from when someone was, well, had their act together, was said to live a well regulated life. That is they functioned well and effectively in their day to day affairs.
  • "A well educated Electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."
  • "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
I've always found it amazing that an introductory clause written in the style of the era could be so confounding to rational interpretation. On top of this, there's the Cruikshank decision of 1875 in which, for some reason, dissociated the 14th Amendment "Privileges and Immunities" from applying the 1st and 2nd Amendments to the States, and further denying that the 2nd Amendment had anything to to with possession of weapons!

And with that proclamation, so went the work of the Civil War, the 14th Amendment, and the rise of the Ku Klux Clan, Jim Crow, etc. Bleah.
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Post by Typeminer »

Two gun shops in two small towns out in the county have been burgled here within the past few months. Seemed to be fairly well planned smash-and-grabs. In the first one, the goods started turning up on the streets in Baltimore. In the most recent, the burglars apparently were teens, and a couple of the pistols turned up in an unrelated traffic stop in the next city across the river.
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Post by lake_wrangler »

I have to admit, this still makes me chuckle on the inside, every time I drive by, three to four weeks after the fact...

There is a store near where I work, which specializes in bathing suits. It's been closed for the last few weeks, however...

The sign in the window says that it's closed due to... water damage... :lol:
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Post by Alkarii »

I guess someone wanted to test all the merchandise at once?
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Post by Catawampus »

lake_wrangler wrote:I have to admit, this still makes me chuckle on the inside, every time I drive by, three to four weeks after the fact...

There is a store near where I work, which specializes in bathing suits. It's been closed for the last few weeks, however...

The sign in the window says that it's closed due to... water damage... :lol:
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