Sweet Dreams 2013-05-23

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zachariah
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Re: Sweet Dreams 2013-05-23

Post by zachariah » Fri May 24, 2013 7:00 am

Dave wrote:
zachariah wrote:I probably should avoid this point but, yesterday Bud mentioned that Tepoz told them they were protecting the Etheitans. If Tepoz told them this is after he was made their guardian. By other points that doesn't happen until Just before the time loop starts. I think this flashback has a few holes in it and when it happened.
Can you point out those "other points"? The main Wapsi chronology document says that Tepoz took charge of the golems long before that... between 10,000 and 5,000 BCE... and then brought them to the New World. The time loops didn't start until Mayahuel tried to destroy the Calendar Machine, and this was only about 1500 years ago.
This is the big probelm.
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/throwingusaway/
By the comments in this strip and the ones following it, the GG were given to Tepoz shortly before the attempt to destroy the Calendar by May. That was around 562. If this is right then how could the girls be under Tepoz's control 5000 years earlier? If that date is correct then any other time line kinda doesn't make sense. I agree there have to be things we don't know yet but this is a pretty big time gap.
Ambush questions are fun. Watching the mental impact of them as they distort, or crumble, opinions based on faulty logic.

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RunningBull
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Re: Sweet Dreams 2013-05-23

Post by RunningBull » Fri May 24, 2013 9:16 am

Then the demons all came out,
And no one saw what they were about,
The people, hundreds of thousands strong,
Never suspected what went wrong,
The devils playground, demon tricks,
Once there were many, now there are six.
"You're not going crazy! You're going sane in a crazy world!"
- The Tick

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bmonk
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Re: Sweet Dreams 2013-05-23

Post by bmonk » Fri May 24, 2013 4:04 pm

zachariah wrote:
Dave wrote:
zachariah wrote:I probably should avoid this point but, yesterday Bud mentioned that Tepoz told them they were protecting the Etheitans. If Tepoz told them this is after he was made their guardian. By other points that doesn't happen until Just before the time loop starts. I think this flashback has a few holes in it and when it happened.
Can you point out those "other points"? The main Wapsi chronology document says that Tepoz took charge of the golems long before that... between 10,000 and 5,000 BCE... and then brought them to the New World. The time loops didn't start until Mayahuel tried to destroy the Calendar Machine, and this was only about 1500 years ago.
This is the big probelm.
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/throwingusaway/
By the comments in this strip and the ones following it, the GG were given to Tepoz shortly before the attempt to destroy the Calendar by May. That was around 562. If this is right then how could the girls be under Tepoz's control 5000 years earlier? If that date is correct then any other time line kinda doesn't make sense. I agree there have to be things we don't know yet but this is a pretty big time gap.
Maybe he was babysitting in the earlier time?

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Dave
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Re: Sweet Dreams 2013-05-23

Post by Dave » Fri May 24, 2013 4:35 pm

zachariah wrote:This is the big probelm.
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/throwingusaway/
By the comments in this strip and the ones following it, the GG were given to Tepoz shortly before the attempt to destroy the Calendar by May. That was around 562. If this is right then how could the girls be under Tepoz's control 5000 years earlier? If that date is correct then any other time line kinda doesn't make sense. I agree there have to be things we don't know yet but this is a pretty big time gap.
My guess is that Bud is talking about two different (but related) times and events here:
  • The time/point at which the Timekeepers (including Mayahuel) transferred the GGs to Tepoz. At that point they were making plans to destroy the Calendar Machine.
  • The time/point at which Mayahuel actually attempted to destroy the Calendar Machine, was tossed into the Demon Dimension, and the time loops started.
I don't think these are one and the same. Bud's comment about "you went looking for her" implies quite strongly that Jin had been sent away, and was coming back to try to find Mayahuel... and found her just as May was trying to destroy the Calendar Machine and was tossed into Tumbolia.

We seem to have two conflicting scenarios here.

In the first (yours) Tepoz received control of the GGs quite late (around 562). The problem I have with this hypothesis, is that it seems to be incompatible with lots of other parts of the story as told. Bud made it fairly clear to Monica, early on, that the GGs were not truly individuals at all before Tepoz took control of them... their personalities and memories were still mash-mingled together and spread across all three bodies... the Timekeepers had separated the Chimera out into its constituent three golems but had not cared or bothered enough to finish the job of restoring them further. Hence, Brandi and Acacia couldn't possibly be acting as they have been shown this week (Brandi is clearly a distinct individual... actually, two of them). We know that Bud was present at the court of Amenhotep IV in Egypt, and apparently did something she is now somewhat embarrassed about... which implies that she was an individual at that point rather than being just one-part-in-three.

In the other scenario, Tepoz received control of the GGs thousands of years ago, disentangled them, and brought them over to the New World at some point (some time before the Olmec civilization was founded, it seems). They had some degree of autonomy at that point. Some thousands of years later, Jin searched actively for Mayahuel and found her just in time to lose her again. This scenario is consistent with what we've just seen happening in flashback at Mapimi - at the time of the Kikai Caldera eruption, Brandi and Bud were individuals, but Bud (at least) had not had all of her original memories restored or released.

This second scenario requires (I think) the "two separate events" interpretation I wrote above... Bud is actually referring to two different times, with a long interval (thousands of years) between Mayahuel and the Timekeepers planning to attack the Calendar Machine, and Mayahuel actually doing so.

Why Mayahuel waited as long as she did... uncertain. My guess is that she held off in the attack because she knew how thoroughly well defended the Calendar Machine was. She may have finally tried it out of desperation, or out of a mistaken belief that she knew how to overcome its defenses.

To me, it seems that the "early Tepoz handover" scenario has far fewer possible inconsistencies with the total story as presented.

zachariah
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Re: Sweet Dreams 2013-05-23

Post by zachariah » Fri May 24, 2013 10:53 pm

Dave wrote:
zachariah wrote:This is the big probelm.
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/throwingusaway/
By the comments in this strip and the ones following it, the GG were given to Tepoz shortly before the attempt to destroy the Calendar by May. That was around 562. If this is right then how could the girls be under Tepoz's control 5000 years earlier? If that date is correct then any other time line kinda doesn't make sense. I agree there have to be things we don't know yet but this is a pretty big time gap.
My guess is that Bud is talking about two different (but related) times and events here:
  • The time/point at which the Timekeepers (including Mayahuel) transferred the GGs to Tepoz. At that point they were making plans to destroy the Calendar Machine.
  • The time/point at which Mayahuel actually attempted to destroy the Calendar Machine, was tossed into the Demon Dimension, and the time loops started.
I don't think these are one and the same. Bud's comment about "you went looking for her" implies quite strongly that Jin had been sent away, and was coming back to try to find Mayahuel... and found her just as May was trying to destroy the Calendar Machine and was tossed into Tumbolia.

We seem to have two conflicting scenarios here.

In the first (yours) Tepoz received control of the GGs quite late (around 562). The problem I have with this hypothesis, is that it seems to be incompatible with lots of other parts of the story as told. Bud made it fairly clear to Monica, early on, that the GGs were not truly individuals at all before Tepoz took control of them... their personalities and memories were still mash-mingled together and spread across all three bodies... the Timekeepers had separated the Chimera out into its constituent three golems but had not cared or bothered enough to finish the job of restoring them further. Hence, Brandi and Acacia couldn't possibly be acting as they have been shown this week (Brandi is clearly a distinct individual... actually, two of them). We know that Bud was present at the court of Amenhotep IV in Egypt, and apparently did something she is now somewhat embarrassed about... which implies that she was an individual at that point rather than being just one-part-in-three.

In the other scenario, Tepoz received control of the GGs thousands of years ago, disentangled them, and brought them over to the New World at some point (some time before the Olmec civilization was founded, it seems). They had some degree of autonomy at that point. Some thousands of years later, Jin searched actively for Mayahuel and found her just in time to lose her again. This scenario is consistent with what we've just seen happening in flashback at Mapimi - at the time of the Kikai Caldera eruption, Brandi and Bud were individuals, but Bud (at least) had not had all of her original memories restored or released.

This second scenario requires (I think) the "two separate events" interpretation I wrote above... Bud is actually referring to two different times, with a long interval (thousands of years) between Mayahuel and the Timekeepers planning to attack the Calendar Machine, and Mayahuel actually doing so.

Why Mayahuel waited as long as she did... uncertain. My guess is that she held off in the attack because she knew how thoroughly well defended the Calendar Machine was. She may have finally tried it out of desperation, or out of a mistaken belief that she knew how to overcome its defenses.

To me, it seems that the "early Tepoz handover" scenario has far fewer possible inconsistencies with the total story as presented.
Tepoz's comment about being stuck with them again does lean toward his being put in charge of them twice. But it can also imply he ended up with them again after he put them to sleep and woke them up for Monica from where he hid them.
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/youretheirkeepernow/
The problem I have with Bud's comment is that it implies that Jin went looking soon after that meeting when they were given to Tepoz. If it was much later then it was a few thousand years later she went looking. Considering her need to find he mother I kinda doubt she would wait that long.

We need to remember that the GG were not self aware after they were seperated. They were robots until Tepoz altered them and even then they were bound to the orders of the scribes. I Tepoz got the earlier then how could Brandi have the free will to act for herself this soon?

Either I should join the crowd in the corner or something is off with the apparent time line. I just don't know. But there have been a series of comments and events that contribute to the idea. They violate even the attempts to explain why they are not contradictions. Anyway I think I've beat this enough for now. When I get the time I'll see what I can track down in the flow. lol.
Ambush questions are fun. Watching the mental impact of them as they distort, or crumble, opinions based on faulty logic.

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Julie
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Re: Sweet Dreams 2013-05-23

Post by Julie » Tue May 28, 2013 8:35 am

zachariah wrote:Tepoz's comment about being stuck with them again does lean toward his being put in charge of them twice. But it can also imply he ended up with them again after he put them to sleep and woke them up for Monica from where he hid them.
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/youretheirkeepernow/
The problem I have with Bud's comment is that it implies that Jin went looking soon after that meeting when they were given to Tepoz. If it was much later then it was a few thousand years later she went looking. Considering her need to find he mother I kinda doubt she would wait that long.

We need to remember that the GG were not self aware after they were seperated. They were robots until Tepoz altered them and even then they were bound to the orders of the scribes. If Tepoz got them earlier then how could Brandi have the free will to act for herself this soon?

Either I should join the crowd in the corner or something is off with the apparent time line. I just don't know. But there have been a series of comments and events that contribute to the idea. They violate even the attempts to explain why they are not contradictions. Anyway I think I've beat this enough for now. When I get the time I'll see what I can track down in the flow. lol.
It is also possible that Jin went looking for her mother immediately, but did not find her until a whole heck of a lot later. Goodness knows I have trouble finding people in my office, which is significantly smaller than the globe (it's that whole "both people walking in the same direction around a circle" thing). *shrug* And also, we don't know precisely when Tepoz altered them to regain a little bit more of themselves, but that could have happened long before this incident as well.

All that said, you're welcome to join us in The Corner. :) We have cookies!
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And see that life is beautiful."

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