Another time then 2012-10-26

Atomic · Post by **Atomic** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:22 pm

Bathorys Daughter wrote:If the 50% thing is true, it would be suicide to take some sort of super antibiotic. Something that tracks down cells which do not have the proper DNA, killing them. Half our body would die. It would, however, be interesting to see what remains. I suppose a computer simulation could be constructed to see that.

Recent thought is the Appendix, previously considered a useless vestige, serves as a safe harbor for necessary gastric bacteria, allowing quick recovery from dysentery, cholera, and similar conditions. Supporting that is people who've been on massive antibiotic regimes often have digestive problems afterwards for a while. I know I did! (Yeah, icky, was a kid, got better, don't ask)

jwhouk · Post by **jwhouk** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:37 pm

Yamara wrote:Specs said the word "doubt".

Now you've done it THIS time...

Good eye! I didn't even notice that.

Kinda like that one film with Michael Keaton?

NOTDilbert · Post by **NOTDilbert** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:42 am

Atomic wrote:Some thoughts on Parasitism v Symbiosis:
....but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

"I'm not fat, I'm infected!"

NOTDilbert · Post by **NOTDilbert** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:52 am

There is the unspoken supposition that 'vampires drink human blood exclusively' - partly from the 'life energy' idea, and partly because it's supposed to be horrifying. There has been some vamp fiction that has 'ethical' vampires living and/or working at a stockyard, abbatoir, or butcher's shop, subsisting on non-human blood; a sausage factory that produces any kind of blood sausage buys it by the barrel.

Initially, when Specs said that they weren't lowlifes, this is what I thought first; however, treating the local prison as an IHOP indicates they, at least occasionally, like to take a stranger to breakfast.....

MerchManDan · Post by **MerchManDan** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:44 am

Atomic wrote:some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

Dave wrote:in many ways, humans can be considered to be colonial superorganisms.... multispecies colonies, in fact.

"It came to me when I tried to classify your species; I realized that you're not actually mammals."

illiad · Post by **illiad** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:54 am

Atomic wrote: ... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

only one problem with that - the body is 50% water...

I suppose one could make the case almost the entire body is a cooperative of individual creatures. Blood cells, for instance, while sharing a certain common DNA, are separate little creatures, capable of operating on their own.

erm, not according to my biology teacher...

there are 3 basic types..
red cells just carry oxygen to, and carbon dioxide from the body and last only 120 days..
white cells are the defense system, and only last 5 days..
platelets are involved with wound repair.
Plasma is the fluid they travel in, containing many of the nutrients and hormones.. it is this that is analyzed when you get a blood test..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_plasma
full charts included about what it contains!

Fairportfan · Post by **Fairportfan** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:06 am

NOTDilbert wrote:There is the unspoken supposition that 'vampires drink human blood exclusively' - partly from the 'life energy' idea, and partly because it's supposed to be horrifying. There has been some vamp fiction that has 'ethical' vampires living and/or working at a stockyard, abbatoir, or butcher's shop, subsisting on non-human blood; a sausage factory that produces any kind of blood sausage buys it by the barrel.

Marvel's Greenberg the Vampire - his brother-in-law (i think) was a kosher butcher.

illiad · Post by **illiad** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:12 am

NOTDilbert wrote:
Atomic wrote:Some thoughts on Parasitism v Symbiosis:
....but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!
"I'm not fat, I'm infected!"

I think he is picking that up from this article..
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... human-ones
Do note that they are talking about *quantity* not weight!!

the (5 year old!) article says 'All the bacteria living inside you would fill a half-gallon jug' so not that much really..

NOTE: if you are frightened by this, note that the human body is a very capable system and can fight of most of these with ease.. that is why a baby playing in dirty water in India, is actually more resistant than the average clean English one!!

when a child is growing up, its body is learning how to fight off all the threats.. being 'too clean' can actually damage your health!

shadowinthelight · Post by **shadowinthelight** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:40 am

illiad wrote:NOTE: if you are frightened by this, note that the human body is a very capable system and can fight of most of these with ease.. that is why a baby playing in dirty water in India, is actually more resistant than the average clean English one!! when a child is growing up, its body is learning how to fight off all the threats.. being 'too clean' can actually damage your health!

A child growing up with a dog/cat will also have fewer allergies when older. Two pets is even better. The health benefits of any additional animals after that is minimal, though.

Atomic · Post by **Atomic** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:27 pm

illiad, yes, thank you -- Quantity (numbers) vs quantity (weight)! Rechecking a few sources put the "guest biome" weight at 10% or less, but numerically more because bacterium, etc, are smaller than human cells.

I stand updated!

Sphinx-Napped · Post by **Sphinx-Napped** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:22 pm

[/quote]Well, all I did was leave the door ajar for Sphinx-Napped to come back and make proper restitution...

*Add a collection of Mason jars to the pun jar*[/quote]

i cant.... you know how hard is to get horse feathers.. in the normal world.. i had to combine chicken dna and horse dna to get the right type of feathers, and the only grow every 300 years.!!! where ever that lars went to it owns the jar some horse feathers..

we need bounty hunter to get the imposter jar to give back those rare horse feathers..

Bathorys Daughter · Post by **Bathorys Daughter** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:29 pm

illiad wrote:
Atomic wrote: ... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!
only one problem with that - the body is 50% water...

I suppose one could make the case almost the entire body is a cooperative of individual creatures. Blood cells, for instance, while sharing a certain common DNA, are separate little creatures, capable of operating on their own.
erm, not according to my biology teacher... there are 3 basic types..
red cells just carry oxygen to, and carbon dioxide from the body and last only 120 days..
white cells are the defense system, and only last 5 days..
platelets are involved with wound repair.
Plasma is the fluid they travel in, containing many of the nutrients and hormones.. it is this that is analyzed when you get a blood test..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_plasma
full charts included about what it contains!

Yes, but each red blood cell, for instance, is floating along doing it's thing as a separate organism. It's not just some inorganic little bucket carrying a load of biological chemicals to where they need to go. It's a little living unit going about it's business quite unaware of overall function to the body. It's highly tuned through evolution to do what it does, but it's still an individual living cell. It can even live outside the body for a time.

What I've found interesting is that the chemical makeup of plasma is about the same as the makeup of seawater. Shows how tricky evolution can be. When our distant ancestors emerged from the sea for life on land, they really never left it behind. They simply took it with them, or at least the genetic code for how to make more of it, creating our own copy of the ocean within each of us. Now, that's some magic.

bmonk · Post by **bmonk** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:21 pm

shadowinthelight wrote:
Bathorys Daughter wrote:If cows were sentient creatures with guns things would be very different. To the cow it would be very wrong for us to eat them and they would set about to stop it by any means necessary.
We will fight for bovine freedom and hold our heads up high...

:like: (Y) this was my immediate thought too.

bmonk · Post by **bmonk** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:40 pm

illiad wrote:
Atomic wrote: ... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!
only one problem with that - the body is 50% water...

Well, apart from the fact that the 50% of weight in bacterium is over-stated--over 50% of the cells in our body may be bacteria, but they are small, so only about 10% by weight is bacterial--there is also the fact that most of that water is actually inside cells, including bacterial cells, so there isn't any contradiction there...

chibichibi01 · Post by **chibichibi01** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:54 pm

Bathorys Daughter wrote:
illiad wrote:
Atomic wrote: ... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!
only one problem with that - the body is 50% water...

I suppose one could make the case almost the entire body is a cooperative of individual creatures. Blood cells, for instance, while sharing a certain common DNA, are separate little creatures, capable of operating on their own.
erm, not according to my biology teacher... there are 3 basic types..
red cells just carry oxygen to, and carbon dioxide from the body and last only 120 days..
white cells are the defense system, and only last 5 days..
platelets are involved with wound repair.
Plasma is the fluid they travel in, containing many of the nutrients and hormones.. it is this that is analyzed when you get a blood test..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_plasma
full charts included about what it contains!
Yes, but each red blood cell, for instance, is floating along doing it's thing as a separate organism. It's not just some inorganic little bucket carrying a load of biological chemicals to where they need to go. It's a little living unit going about it's business quite unaware of overall function to the body. It's highly tuned through evolution to do what it does, but it's still an individual living cell. It can even live outside the body for a time.

What I've found interesting is that the chemical makeup of plasma is about the same as the makeup of seawater. Shows how tricky evolution can be. When our distant ancestors emerged from the sea for life on land, they really never left it behind. They simply took it with them, or at least the genetic code for how to make more of it, creating our own copy of the ocean within each of us. Now, that's some magic.

Actually, mature RBCs don't have a nucleus, so they are essentially brainless organic buckets of stuff being chuggled along by plasma. They impart O2 to our cells by simple diffusion and gain it the same way.

Plasma has the same... salinity as 0.9% Saline solution. That's why when you give fluids that's the most common (because regular sterile water burns like hell) The simple saline is isotonic with our bodies. Seawater and Plasma are... very different. Seawater is almost 4.5 times as salty as your plasma. Plus, plasma has necessary sugars and proteins in it (like the clotting cascade) that seawater just doesn't have. I know it's a google answers link but: http://answers.google.com/answers/threa ... 61036.html has some really good information. EDIT: Reading further, they are similar but i wouldn't want to be given seawater if i needed a plasma transfusion

Atomic · Post by **Atomic** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:52 pm

Isn't it just lovely how a cartoon about vampires being threatened by a demon can spawn a thread discussion on the finer points of evolutionary biology?

Wdot · Post by **Wdot** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:58 pm

Once long ago I listened to a record album... yes a record album put out by Robert Redford about the wolf. He mentioned a Inuit saying about wolves and caribou. It went something like this: The wolf and carabou are one. It is the wolf that keeps the carabou strong and it is the carabou that feeds the wolf. The relationship is adversarial in a micro level, but necessary on the macro level. I don't know how vampires are going to fit into the Wapsiverse, but I don't think these two are going to be villians in the traditonal sense.

jwhouk · Post by **jwhouk** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:23 pm

"There are no bad guys?"

"Just you and me, kid."

(Bonus points for anyone who can find the strip where that's said.)

Julie · Post by **Julie** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:34 pm

Bathorys Daughter wrote:
Julie wrote:Also, the thing to remember is that humans are their food source. Saying that the killing of their food source is wrong is tantamount to saying that lions shouldn't feed on antelopes or zebras. Yes, I know that the arguement is supposed to be different because humans are a sentient species...and it may be because of that fact that they only kill prisoners (or maybe you and NotDilbert are right and they only take a little so as not to kill), but that doesn't change the fact that they are above us in the food chain. What you see as murder, they see as dinner. I don't feel like eating steak makes me a cow murderer (though I know some Vegatarian/Vegan folks who would tell me otherwise), and I'd be willing to bet that there are vampires out there in the Wapsi-verse who feel the same way about getting their nom on with a nice plump housewife.
Yes, of course, but to the food source they are "wrong." If cows were sentient creatures with guns things would be very different. To the cow it would be very wrong for us to eat them and they would set about to stop it by any means necessary. The finer points of culture and who is food to who would be lost on the cows as they try to stay alive. Same with us. We have to stop the vampires from killing us or our loved ones. Whatever that takes. If we start sacrificing some of us to appease them, no matter how much of a lowlife the scarificees may be, we are committing the crime of human sacrifice. Appeasement rarely works for long either. At some point you have to call in the Apos.

So, we either come to some sort of agreement with the vampires, or we eliminate the threat. I would think that agreement would center around not killing any of us and we not killing any of them. Since the vampires are not just wild animals, we can come to an agreement, just as has been done with the demons. At least I'm hoping Paul takes the story that way. All the other killers of humans we have seen have gained a conscience and no longer kill just because they can. Not too sure about Bia yet, however.

Well I certainly didn't intend to make it sound like I was pro-vampire to the point of "Here, have my annoying co-worker...just don't kill me!"

I was merely pointing out that the vampires don't necessarily have to be subject to our morals and ethics (though we may chose to judge them in that fashion...and we certainly don't have to like being dinner). I, like Boxilar, prefer my vampires to be "bad guys" or at least proud of what they are. I'll admit that I was entertained by the concept of vampires with consciences the first few times I saw it, but it's made characters that used to be badasses into wussy people with a condition that they feel guilty about (you really did say it best Boxilar!).

That's why I'm sticking to the "vampires aren't murderers...they're diners" attitude.

At least until me or someone I know is on the menu.

My2Cents · Post by **My2Cents** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:29 pm

Bathorys Daughter wrote:So, we either come to some sort of agreement with the vampires, or we eliminate the threat. I would think that agreement would center around not killing any of us and we not killing any of them. Since the vampires are not just wild animals, we can come to an agreement, just as has been done with the demons. At least I'm hoping Paul takes the story that way. All the other killers of humans we have seen have gained a conscience and no longer kill just because they can. Not too sure about Bia yet, however.

Got a reference to humans coming to an agreement with the demons? It sounds more like someone (i.e. God) set the rules and gave the Sphinxes the job of enforcing it, no negotiations involved at all.

If humans have any kind of agreement with vampires it is probably along the lines of “Make sure we can’t prove you are around and we won’t hunt you down and exterminate you.” Mankind the species is a vindictive bastard prone to preemptive extermination of perceived non-human threats. How else can you explain a hairless, clawless, fangless, biped becoming the apex predator on the planet.

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