Another time then 2012-10-26

[Bathorys Daughter]

The Vamp Girls describe themselves as lowlifes, bottom feeders and lice ...

Actually they said they were like lice compared to Monica, not as compared to everyone. No doubt the same compared to to Phix as well. Monica is high royalty to them. Way above not only them, but all humans and many supernaturals. They may only consider themselves bottom feeders as compared to other supernaturals and not in the sense we would consider some class of animals as bottom feeders. They may still consider themselves above humans in general and see us as prey only, not caring about us as sentient creatures. To me, that makes them worthy of being destroyed or caged in self defense. Doesn't matter if they just kill bad guys/girls (is there a women's prison nearby too?). We don't let mobs in to do as they wish with prisoners. Nor should we tolerate these two doing much the same. Especially in prison. Once you cage a person, you (society) becomes responsible for their well being. If you simply let them be killed just because of their crimes, you are little better than they.

[Fairportfan]

As we've seen that Pablo likes to play around with mythology, I suspect there might be another reason why M's demons want to keep these two at arm's length.

They get one sip of that Phoenix blood, and...

Burst into flame?

[kingklash]

As we've seen that Pablo likes to play around with mythology, I suspect there might be another reason why M's demons want to keep these two at arm's length.

They get one sip of that Phoenix blood, and...

Burst into flame?

Or get the Vampire equivalent of crazy, roaring, blackout drunk.

[Fairportfan]

No - that's when they feed from fairies. Just ask Sookie Stackhouse (the real one, not the one on teevee).

[Boxilar]

The Vamp Girls describe themselves as lowlifes, bottom feeders and lice ...

Actually they said they were like lice compared to Monica, not as compared to everyone. No doubt the same compared to to Phix as well. Monica is high royalty to them. Way above not only them, but all humans and many supernaturals. They may only consider themselves bottom feeders as compared to other supernaturals and not in the sense we would consider some class of animals as bottom feeders. They may still consider themselves above humans in general and see us as prey only, not caring about us as sentient creatures. To me, that makes them worthy of being destroyed or caged in self defense. Doesn't matter if they just kill bad guys/girls (is there a women's prison nearby too?). We don't let mobs in to do as they wish with prisoners. Nor should we tolerate these two doing much the same. Especially in prison. Once you cage a person, you (society) becomes responsible for their well being. If you simply let them be killed just because of their crimes, you are little better than they.

One of the trends I've disliked about modern vampire fiction is making them "normal folk with a condition". I prefer my vampires as supernatural predators that stalk and feed on humanity. I want them to be bad guys. I want them to be monsters. I don't mind if they are the secret Illuminati controlling world affairs, as in Blade, but I think I like it better when they are depicted as predators living on the edges of human civilization, ala the Lost Boys or Near Dark. And that seems to be what Paul has done with his Vampires.

In realities where no other more powerful supernaturals exist, or the more powerful just don't care, a scenerio where the vamps rule human kind from behind the curtain makes sense. Paul has shown that more powerful forces move among humans and care for them, at least on a personal basis. In a world where Sphinxes, Titans and Gorgons rub elbows with humanity, and each other, vampires would live harrowing lives. They'd be jackals living among lions, leopards and wolves, figuratively speaking. They'd always be looking over thier shoulders. I think the shock at the inital encounter from both of them was because Monica simply passed on by without squishing them. Dreds seemed to count herself lucky, Specs saw it as an opportunity to social climb, or maybe get some protection by befiending her. Kind of like a warthog and meercat adopting a lion cub. Until Doubt shut her down, anyway.

Specs' comment that "I doubt we've killed anyone she knows," says to me that these girls are killers. Paul may show us otherwise, but I think he might have just introduced the series' first living villans.

[Sphinx-Napped]

doubt looks to be showing all her teeth in that smile. i wonder if miss vampire wanted to tell monica that doubt hasn't flossed today due to she a seems to have eaten her own face...

and vampire hey look is that demonic duck over there!!!

/runs!

/throws few horse feathers in the lar.

[My2Cents]

I hope you're right about the feeding yet not killing thing. It would be the only saving grace for them if they do feed on the prisoners. Otherwise I will be taking an instant and visceral dislike to these characters. Still, just because they are prisoners and bad guys would not excuse the vampires. At least to me it would not make it all ok. I'm hoping Paul has a better plot device than that given how he has treated the others who were merciless killers of humans yet are no longer. We can have sympathy for them in their present circumstance. I doubt we would have much for them if they were still murdering people. Even bad people. I wouldn't, anyway. That was an aspect of "Stranger in a Strange Land" that ruined the story for me (yes, I am anti-capital punishment too).

The vampires may be another group we have to view from a perspective of "may not have same moral or ethical standards as humans" like we had to view the sphinx (sphinxes?). If they are not created from humans, but are actually born as vampires, then they could have a very different societal structure than we do, in spite of their humanoid appearance. *shrug*

Also, the thing to remember is that humans are their food source. Saying that the killing of their food source is wrong is tantamount to saying that lions shouldn't feed on antelopes or zebras. Yes, I know that the arguement is supposed to be different because humans are a sentient species...and it may be because of that fact that they only kill prisoners (or maybe you and NotDilbert are right and they only take a little so as not to kill), but that doesn't change the fact that they are above us in the food chain. What you see as murder, they see as dinner. I don't feel like eating steak makes me a cow murderer (though I know some Vegatarian/Vegan folks who would tell me otherwise), and I'd be willing to bet that there are vampires out there in the Wapsi-verse who feel the same way about getting their nom on with a nice plump housewife.

Given the description of vampires and werewolves as mosquitoes and lice, I think they are better classified as parasites than predators.

A really good parasite doesn’t kill its host. The vampires probably have a regular feeding schedule worked out so they won’t accidentally over-tap anyone and unduly injure them. As noted by others, deaths bring investigations. However, occasional lethargy is likely to be ignored, particularly in a place like a prison where it may be seen as a blessing by the authorities.

[Jabberwonky]

Dave beat me to the methadone reference, but what if there is a system in place where prisoners donate blood for time off. Vampires, 'in the program', show up to drink freely given blood out of a glass, no assaults, no spread of the vampirism vector. Good deal for the prisoners and our 'black ribboners'.

Just noodlin' around...

[Bathorys Daughter]

Specs' comment that "I doubt we've killed anyone she knows," says to me that these girls are killers.

That could be, but it could also indicate they were killers. She may also be referring to the fact that their killing days were fairly long ago so that Monica would not be likely to personally know of their past victims.

Given the fact Specs was bold enough to want to meet Monica could mean she and Dreads are in a supervised program in which they are no longer quite the bottom feeders they once were. This would mean Specs could feel a degree of protection from the usual kill on sight/whim policy other predators may have towards vampires in general. She said "that's not us" (the other vampires who are considered bottom feeders), indicating, to me anyway, the two have a special status in some way which sets them apart. A status they assume Monica is aware of so she would not kill them for sport or swatting practice.

Little do they know how little, little Monica knows.

[Atomic]

Some thoughts on Parasitism v Symbiosis:

The line about "A parasite eats it's host in units of less than one" certainly aids the view that parasites are icky freeloaders. And frankly, some non-parasites (screw flies, ichneumon wasps) lead some absolutely horrifying life cycles. But in both cases, we are anthropomorphizing non-human (social boundaries) behavior. The Symbiant is easy to cheer for - they can live independent lives, and improve life overall by living together! How socially wonderful! Parasite? Bleah!

I've seen a lot of research about how parasites can actually improve host lives. For example, hookworm in humans may minimize asthma. Digestive processes are improved by the presence of a varied intestinal fauna, even to the point where fecal transplants are now being used to treat some conditions like severe colitis. E. coli in food can make you sick, but keeps the wheels turning in your gut! Breastfeeding research suggests that not just the antibodies in milk, but mother's bacterium from skin contact and saliva boost the infant's health. There are plenty of articles about how the Mitochondria in our cells may be a symbiotic species that moved into our life (literally!), but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

My point is that mosquitoes exist for a reason, and they serve the creatures around them by doing something. Yes, they're annoying, but, minimally, they accomplish something in the larger view. Whatever it is that vampires do, they're not simply murderous vultures. I'm thinking of a situation like the Hawk Moth whose existence was unknown but foretold by Darwin. It seems a particular flower had such a long structure that no known butterfly could feed from it. Darwin surmised there had to be a moth with a long, long tongue to make the reach. When they looked at night, they found it.

If vampires exist, the fill a role of some kind.

[lake_wrangler]

/throws few horse feathers in the lar.

That's all fine and dandy, but the jar still awaits its donation...

[Jabberwonky]

... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

Ew.

I'm thinking of a situation like the Hawk Moth whose existence was unknown but foretold by Darwin. It seems a particular flower had such a long structure that no known butterfly could feed from it. Darwin surmised there had to be a moth with a long, long tongue to make the reach.

You're not making some kind of sideways slam on Monica are you?

[bmonk]

/throws few horse feathers in the lar.

That's all fine and dandy, but the jar still awaits its donation...

Your observation, for some reason, jars me.

[Adds a pot by Maria Martinez into the collection.]

[lake_wrangler]

/throws few horse feathers in the lar.

That's all fine and dandy, but the jar still awaits its donation...

Your observation, for some reason, jars me.

[Adds a pot by Maria Martinez into the collection.]

Well, all I did was leave the door ajar for Sphinx-Napped to come back and make proper restitution...

*Add a collection of Mason jars to the pun jar*

[Atomic]

I'm thinking of a situation like the Hawk Moth whose existence was unknown but foretold by Darwin. It seems a particular flower had such a long structure that no known butterfly could feed from it. Darwin surmised there had to be a moth with a long, long tongue to make the reach.

You're not making some kind of sideways slam on Monica are you?

Not at all on my mind at the time, but now that you point it out...

[Bathorys Daughter]

Also, the thing to remember is that humans are their food source. Saying that the killing of their food source is wrong is tantamount to saying that lions shouldn't feed on antelopes or zebras. Yes, I know that the arguement is supposed to be different because humans are a sentient species...and it may be because of that fact that they only kill prisoners (or maybe you and NotDilbert are right and they only take a little so as not to kill), but that doesn't change the fact that they are above us in the food chain. What you see as murder, they see as dinner. I don't feel like eating steak makes me a cow murderer (though I know some Vegatarian/Vegan folks who would tell me otherwise), and I'd be willing to bet that there are vampires out there in the Wapsi-verse who feel the same way about getting their nom on with a nice plump housewife.

Yes, of course, but to the food source they are "wrong." If cows were sentient creatures with guns things would be very different. To the cow it would be very wrong for us to eat them and they would set about to stop it by any means necessary. The finer points of culture and who is food to who would be lost on the cows as they try to stay alive. Same with us. We have to stop the vampires from killing us or our loved ones. Whatever that takes. If we start sacrificing some of us to appease them, no matter how much of a lowlife the scarificees may be, we are committing the crime of human sacrifice. Appeasement rarely works for long either. At some point you have to call in the Apos.

So, we either come to some sort of agreement with the vampires, or we eliminate the threat. I would think that agreement would center around not killing any of us and we not killing any of them. Since the vampires are not just wild animals, we can come to an agreement, just as has been done with the demons. At least I'm hoping Paul takes the story that way. All the other killers of humans we have seen have gained a conscience and no longer kill just because they can. Not too sure about Bia yet, however.

... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

I suppose one could make the case almost the entire body is a cooperative of individual creatures. Blood cells, for instance, while sharing a certain common DNA, are separate little creatures, capable of operating on their own.

If the 50% thing is true, it would be suicide to take some sort of super antibiotic. Something that tracks down cells which do not have the proper DNA, killing them. Half our body would die. It would, however, be interesting to see what remains. I suppose a computer simulation could be constructed to see that.

[shadowinthelight]

If cows were sentient creatures with guns things would be very different. To the cow it would be very wrong for us to eat them and they would set about to stop it by any means necessary.

We will fight for bovine freedom and hold our heads up high...

[Haylo]

... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

I suppose one could make the case almost the entire body is a cooperative of individual creatures. Blood cells, for instance, while sharing a certain common DNA, are separate little creatures, capable of operating on their own.

If the 50% thing is true, it would be suicide to take some sort of super antibiotic. Something that tracks down cells which do not have the proper DNA, killing them. Half our body would die. It would, however, be interesting to see what remains. I suppose a computer simulation could be constructed to see that.

There are indeed some antibiotics that are harmfull to mitochondria, http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/medicati ... -toxicity"including tetracycline, minocycline, chloramphenical, and aminoglycosides, and at least one which cannot be used clinically at all because it is very harmful to them (but which my quick search couldn't find.)

[Dave]

... but further, some suggest that up to 50% of our body weight may be the bacteria we host!

I suppose one could make the case almost the entire body is a cooperative of individual creatures. Blood cells, for instance, while sharing a certain common DNA, are separate little creatures, capable of operating on their own.

The figures I've read, are that the mass of bacteria and archae in the human body is a few pounds... mostly in the gut. The human cells outweigh the microbes by quite a bit. However, the microbes do outnumber the human cells... they're a lot smaller and there are more of them per pound.

And, you're right... in many ways, humans can be considered to be colonial superorganisms.... multispecies colonies, in fact.

The classic question "Who am I?" is more complex than it may seem at first

[Yamara]

Specs said the word "doubt".

Now you've done it THIS time...