Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Need to talk about the day's episode of Wapsi? This is the place to do it. Play nice! ^_^

Moderators: Bookworm, starkruzr, MrFireDragon, PrettyPrincess, Wapsi

Forum rules
When two threads are posted for a day's comic, the thread posted first becomes the starting post. Please delete the second thread and add your post to the first thread. When naming the thread: Comic Name YYYY-MM-DD
Thanks guys! This keeps the forum nice and neat.
User avatar
Mark N
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Mark N »

Bathorys Daughter wrote:Actually, as I understand it, Phix and the library have been outside the time loop through everything. She and the library never reset at the end of each cycle. Same for Bia. Phix has met many Monicas and Shellys (or whoever took on their roles during a given time loop), but it would only be the one time (this last cycle) that she had to give up her son. As well as the only time Shelly became a sphinx since its also the only cycle Bia did a breeding with Shelly's father. The only other way it would work is if Phix had been forced to produce another son for every cycle. That seems pretty unlikely.
My temporary insanity holds even if Phix only had to go through that for one cycle. But I still have to disagree with Bathory's Daughter on this.

The problem with that is that in every cycle there was a Shelly, which means that Phix had a son on earth. Unless a new Mr Wahnee was created from temporal instability, she would have had to have him each time. From what we know it is more likely that Monica was not in the first few loops because Arron Sullivan had a long relationship with Jin in those loops (Jim mentions that at some loop she and Arron had a fight and he met Monica's grandmother. That is when Jin realized that Monica was important and had to lose him every loop after that). The Library being outside of the loops did not stop the fact that the loops occurred. It just means that the full 80,000 years passed in the Library while only 1400 or so years passed on Earth. Bia most likely had the same relationship with Shelly's dad each time (Maybe as part of her experiments) the only difference was that in this loop Shelly died and created Connie. This may have been a factor in her awakening her Sphinx side. Before that each Shelly was mortal, albeit stronger than normal human. But all of this is conjecture and only Paul know the truth.
This message is brought to you by the "Let the artist know how much you LOVE his work" council.
kingklash
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:12 pm

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by kingklash »

I guess the wings are in shadow, I thought it was Shelly there for a sec.
User avatar
Boxilar
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Boxilar »

Bathorys Daughter wrote:
Fairportfan wrote:More like a gorged lion.
That's the thing. It doesn't quite look like Phix and there is no distended stomach as would be expected after a huge meal. I think part of the problem is that this drawing is somewhat stylized. There is no clear definition around the legs area and the head is too blood covered to make out much. I'm not even sure it's female, but there have been no human-headed male sphinxes presented, so I assume it's female.

Paul has presented something that appears directly related to what has just recently gone before only to find it was not. At the least not the character it seemed to be at first glance. It would be jarring to find out that's Shelly who, upon seeing the carcass and smelling the gore, went totally sphinx and wallowed in the remains after Phix left it. This scene may not even be in the same time period. We may be seeing something from the remote past. The wall doesn't quite seem like a typical library wall.
That jibes with the fact that Paul likes to throw curve balls at us from time to time. Remember all the debate when Shelly 1( who we all thought was Shelly 57) died in the time forrest retrieving the power cell? The "OMG is this a dream" response from the board was met with Pauls cryptic comment,

"You just witnessed Shelly's death."

So, this could be Phix in the past, as evidenced by the non library type wall. And as jarring as the image is, I'm glad Paul is about to show us the aftermath with Phix.
User avatar
Bathorys Daughter
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:02 am

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Bathorys Daughter »

Mark N wrote:My temporary insanity holds even if Phix only had to go through that for one cycle. But I still have to disagree with Bathory's Daughter on this.

The problem with that is that in every cycle there was a Shelly, which means that Phix had a son on earth. Unless a new Mr Wahnee was created from temporal instability, she would have had to have him each time. From what we know it is more likely that Monica was not in the first few loops because Arron Sullivan had a long relationship with Jin in those loops (Jim mentions that at some loop she and Arron had a fight and he met Monica's grandmother. That is when Jin realized that Monica was important and had to lose him every loop after that). The Library being outside of the loops did not stop the fact that the loops occurred. It just means that the full 80,000 years passed in the Library while only 1400 or so years passed on Earth. Bia most likely had the same relationship with Shelly's dad each time (Maybe as part of her experiments) the only difference was that in this loop Shelly died and created Connie. This may have been a factor in her awakening her Sphinx side. Before that each Shelly was mortal, albeit stronger than normal human. But all of this is conjecture and only Paul know the truth.
It's true there was a Shelly each cycle, but it does not follow that Shelly's dad was Phix's son each time. Nor that Bia was her mom. Just that there was a Shelly. However, you may be right that Bia was involved each time (or at least many times) , just that things never worked out before. I wonder if Bia even knew about the time forest? Maybe all she knew was that the Shellys kept disappearing and not coming back. It may be that this time through Bia figured out the missing ingredient was the son of a sphinx as the father and talked Phix into providing one. I just can't see Phix somehow having a son every cycle and being able to give him up as well. Seems a bit much. As you say, however, who knows.
A society should not be judged on how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals... ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky.
User avatar
Mark N
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Mark N »

Boxilar wrote: So, this could be Phix in the past, as evidenced by the non library type wall. And as jarring as the image is, I'm glad Paul is about to show us the aftermath with Phix.
Interesting idea. if this is the past, then maybe this is Phix after she got the snot knocked out of her by the now deceased Ms. S'plodyhead. If true then no wonder she 'one shot' the bitch.
This message is brought to you by the "Let the artist know how much you LOVE his work" council.
User avatar
Bathorys Daughter
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:02 am

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Bathorys Daughter »

Boxilar wrote: That jibes with the fact that Paul likes to throw curve balls at us from time to time. Remember all the debate when Shelly 1( who we all thought was Shelly 57) died in the time forrest retrieving the power cell? The "OMG is this a dream" response from the board was met with Pauls cryptic comment,

"You just witnessed Shelly's death."

So, this could be Phix in the past, as evidenced by the non library type wall. And as jarring as the image is, I'm glad Paul is about to show us the aftermath with Phix.
Yes, he should have said "You just witnessed a Shelly's death." Could be we are about to get some back story concerning Phix and her relationship to her recent lunch. That might be Phix beaten to within an inch of her life by said lunch. We'll find out soon, I hope.

EDIT: Oops, sorry Mark N. Didn't mean to step on your idea. Apparently we had the same thought, but you got there first.
A society should not be judged on how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals... ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky.
User avatar
Wapsi
Site Admin
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:57 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Wapsi »

I'll help clear this up for you guys, there was a Shelly in all time loops, but they were not all from the same mother and father, although they were all a Comanche gal. =)
User avatar
Fairportfan
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:14 am
Location: Atlanta (well, Gainesville)
Contact:

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Fairportfan »

Bathorys Daughter wrote:Phix has met many Monicas and Shellys (or whoever took on their roles during a given time loop), but it would only be the one time (this last cycle) that she had to give up her son. As well as the only time Shelly became a sphinx since its also the only cycle Bia did a breeding with Shelly's father. The only other way it would work is if Phix had been forced to produce another son for every cycle. That seems pretty unlikely.
So where did the other Shellys come from?
Not even duct tape can fix stupid. But it can muffle the noise.
=====================
Peace through superior firepower - ain't nothin' more peaceful than a dead troublemaker.
=====================
mike weber
User avatar
Dave
Posts: 7586
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Dave »

Bathorys Daughter wrote:It's true there was a Shelly each cycle, but it does not follow that Shelly's dad was Phix's son each time.
Essentially correct. If I recall correctly, Brandi's notebook (which had records from multiple CM cycles) made reference to the fact that Monica's friend wasn't always named Shelly. Apparently there is/was/could-be/?? some significant variations between CM cycles... possibly Shelly was essentially the same person but was named differently, or possibly an entirely different person played her role during that CM cycle (I don't think Paul ever clarified this but I could be wrong).

Hence, I don't think that we can assume that there was a "Shelly, child of a half-sphinx semi-orphan son of Phix, and daughter of a duplicitous Titan named Bia" in every CM cycle. The earlier Shellys could quite possibly have had significantly different ancestry, on either or both sides... and this might account for the fact that only Shelly-57 ever became a mature sphinx.

On the other hand, it may be as was suggested... Connie may have made the difference. Apparently she was created only in this last CM cycle... Tina said that she/they (the demon coven) was on its "first time around running the ship", so the event in which Tina died, and Shelly's demons blocked Tina's soul-death and became fused together to create Connie, didn't occur on the previous cycles.

Causality, and the relationship between the various Shelly characters, gets confusing when they're meeting only in a timeline running backwards from our own. Can the creation of Connie (during cycle 57) have the effect of preventing her creation during earlier CM cycles, because Shelly-57 got into the Time Forest "first" according to the Time Forest's timeline direction?
User avatar
Mark N
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Mark N »

Whelp what a difference a little information makes. Now we can get this discussion onto better footing now that we know the truth about 'multiple Shellys'. It was all the fault of the confusion couch and its cushions of doom.

Thanks for the clarification Paul.

p.s. Bathory's Daughter, you are a worthy debate opponent. (That is a good thing by the way) :D
This message is brought to you by the "Let the artist know how much you LOVE his work" council.
User avatar
chibichibi01
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:26 pm
Location: Tucson, Az

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by chibichibi01 »

Wapsi wrote:I'll help clear this up for you guys, there was a Shelly in all time loops, but they were not all from the same mother and father, although they were all a Comanche gal. =)
Thanks! This really helps put our debating on more accurate footing and that's /always/ a good thing.

So, multiple Shellys. /Only/ this one is the Titan/Sphinx hybrid. Does this mean her father in the current loop isn't Phix's son? Or is he? Because the Shelly of the current loop /died./ What does that mean for her father and for Bia? Does this mean that they aren't actually related at all?


...

I think I confused myself.

EDIT: Current Loop Shelly's Dad is the father of Shelly 57 who is DEAD. This means that he isn't actually Phix's son, or Shelly 57 would have been a Sphinx too. So where is Phix's son? What happened to him after all these loops, because Shelinx was the first one in the time forest. Does this mean Shelly's mother always died of heart failure in all the loops?

SO MANY NEW QUESTIONS.
ImageImage
WilliamCA
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by WilliamCA »

ugh...Ohhhh...kay... Serious WTF moment when i saw this comic.
User avatar
Mark N
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Mark N »

chibichibi01 wrote:
Wapsi wrote:I'll help clear this up for you guys, there was a Shelly in all time loops, but they were not all from the same mother and father, although they were all a Comanche gal. =)
Thanks! This really helps put our debating on more accurate footing and that's /always/ a good thing.

So, multiple Shellys. /Only/ this one is the Titan/Sphinx hybrid. Does this mean her father in the current loop isn't Phix's son? Or is he? Because the Shelly of the current loop /died./ What does that mean for her father and for Bia? Does this mean that they aren't actually related at all?


...

I think I confused myself.

EDIT: Current Loop Shelly's Dad is the father of Shelly 57 who is DEAD. This means that he isn't actually Phix's son, or Shelly 57 would have been a Sphinx too. So where is Phix's son? What happened to him after all these loops, because Shelinx was the first one in the time forest. Does this mean Shelly's mother always died of heart failure in all the loops?

SO MANY NEW QUESTIONS.
Your are working from a false premise. The Shelly that we saw die in the forest was the very first Shelly. Our Sphinx is Shelly 57. The Time forest moves backwards so the last time loop was the first to be in the forest. If you look at the strip that Shelly died her last words were "The calendar" which would mean in her time line the calender was still in play while our Shelly had already helped stop it (http://wapsisquare.com/comic/done-here/). I hope this helps you. :)

B.T.W. Paul, that was a great twist in the last panels of that strip.
This message is brought to you by the "Let the artist know how much you LOVE his work" council.
User avatar
txmystic
Posts: 241
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:10 pm
Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by txmystic »

Regardless of the parentage of the current Shellynx (although it is an interesting speculative exercise), I'm not certain I'm feeling the change in Monica after seeing Phix in her natural element when emotionally/physically/spiritually charged. I always thought she was more naturally intrepid than that, and even though she had never seen a Sphinx-on-Sphinx throwdown, I'm surprised she would ever consider not going to the library anymore, much less even consider cutting Shelly out of her life.

Besides, where did that other Sphinx come from and why why why would it ever think that Phix would ever leave herself vulnerable to whatever attack it was trying to make? It just seemed a but random to me. Thoughts?

Anyone for a Pinaeu Charentais nightcap?
User avatar
Yamara
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:59 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Yamara »

Mark N wrote:
chibichibi01 wrote: I think I confused myself.

EDIT: Current Loop Shelly's Dad is the father of Shelly 57 who is DEAD. This means that he isn't actually Phix's son, or Shelly 57 would have been a Sphinx too. So where is Phix's son? What happened to him after all these loops, because Shelinx was the first one in the time forest. Does this mean Shelly's mother always died of heart failure in all the loops?

SO MANY NEW QUESTIONS.
Your are working from a false premise. The Shelly that we saw die in the forest was the very first Shelly. Our Sphinx is Shelly 57. The Time forest moves backwards so the last time loop was the first to be in the forest. If you look at the strip that Shelly died her last words were "The calendar" which would mean in her time line the calender was still in play while our Shelly had already helped stop it (http://wapsisquare.com/comic/done-here/). I hope this helps you. :)
Nudge declares our Shelly as Shelly 57: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/soccor-mom/

As Mark N et al have pointed out, the Shelly we watched die in the Time Forest was Shelly 1. Note that Shelly 57's avoidance of Shelly 1's sword and Bia's deliberate infodumping suggested that other Shellys may have had sphinx blood as well, just not in the right combination. (Edit: Shelly 57 speaking to Shelly 1's corpse makes this even more clear: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/where-sphinxes-come-from/ )
Wapsi wrote:I'll help clear this up for you guys, there was a Shelly in all time loops, but they were not all from the same mother and father, although they were all a Comanche gal. =)
Awesome. What a wrench to throw into Jin's calculations. Shelly 57's behaviour had to be markedly different from the others in order to create Connie, but the vision quest became so extreme it distracted Jin from the danger to Monica and Tina in Mexico City. Jin had resolved the necessary genome for Monica's birth, but Shelly and Nudge's tangent sideswiped her expectations. Multiple Brandi's plan, including Brandi's demonic deal, had to be accommodated as well. Brilliant maze-building work, dude.

...This also means it's far more likely Bia sent a young Comanche girl to Styx a bit early after all.

Someone really needs to learn not to take the batteries out of things that aren't toys.
PunPalsm the fastest way to pay the pun jar


Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Baal.
User avatar
Dave
Posts: 7586
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Dave »

Yamara wrote:....This also means it's far more likely Bia sent a young Comanche girl to Styx a bit early after all.

Someone really needs to learn not to take the batteries out of things that aren't toys.
Yeah, it's looking more and more as if a covert "shove the body into hammerspace, morph, and 'become' the dead girl" may have taken place... it's certainly consistent with other evidence, as well as with Bia being a "thoughtless, emotionless bitch" as Nudge described her reputation.

Not nice... not even slightly close to being nice.
User avatar
Boxilar
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Boxilar »

txmystic wrote:Regardless of the parentage of the current Shellynx (although it is an interesting speculative exercise), I'm not certain I'm feeling the change in Monica after seeing Phix in her natural element when emotionally/physically/spiritually charged. I always thought she was more naturally intrepid than that, and even though she had never seen a Sphinx-on-Sphinx throwdown, I'm surprised she would ever consider not going to the library anymore, much less even consider cutting Shelly out of her life.

Besides, where did that other Sphinx come from and why why why would it ever think that Phix would ever leave herself vulnerable to whatever attack it was trying to make? It just seemed a but random to me. Thoughts?

Anyone for a Pinaeu Charentais nightcap?
As awsome and disturbing as the art from panel three of "LEAVE" was, I don't think even Paul's skill could fully convey the visceral horror the scene had for Monica. Phix, who was a trusted friend and ally was revealed to Monica as an Ancient Power, maybe not on the order of the Great Old Ones, but something definitely More Than Human and terrible in aspect. If it had been some random Sphinx, or some other creature it wouldn't have been that bad. It would have been terrible, but Monica could have told herself,

"Phix would never do that, Shelly will never do that, they're different."

Except now she knows they CAN, they WILL. Phix, the most gentle, caring, patient friend she had "suddenly" turned into a ravening monster. If Phix can, why not Shelly who was just as close, if not closer. The only difference is, last week Shelly diffused the distance between them by being Shelly. I think they'll still talk about it, but I'm glad Paul showed that they salvaged their friendship.

If this were Call of Cthulhu (I know, gaming nerd applying game rules to media, can't help myself) M would have taken a fairly massive sanity hit, and by the same token, her immediate reaction shows the experience was mind bendingly disturbing.

In short, seeing Phix in full feral mode was so horrifying to M that she went a little bit insane for a bit. Only Eryale kept her from going completly over the edge.

Monica has no desire to repeat the experience. As I said in an earlier thread, even if Monica and Phix reconcile, it will never be the same. Because Monica will always have THAT MOMENT in the back of her mind when one of her closest friends became a monster.

'Preciate the offer, but I'm gonna have a shot of Brandy afore I turn in. *clink*
User avatar
NOTDilbert
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:39 am
Location: Western Arkansas, USA

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by NOTDilbert »

Mark N wrote:
Your are working from a false premise. The Shelly that we saw die in the forest was the very first Shelly. Our Sphinx is Shelly 57. The Time forest moves backwards so the last time loop was the first to be in the forest. If you look at the strip that Shelly died her last words were "The calendar" which would mean in her time line the calender was still in play while our Shelly had already helped stop it (http://wapsisquare.com/comic/done-here/). I hope this helps you. :)

B.T.W. Paul, that was a great twist in the last panels of that strip.
Actually, it was Shelly # 2. The first pass through time, NO-ONE was aware that it would reset 2012-12-21. After the first reset, Jin noticed and started working on the problem.

So the first/last Shelly to die was #2. # 57 is Shelly-the-sphinx.

I think. (c8
"Imagination is more important than Knowledge" - Albert Einstein
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it DOES rhyme" - Mark Twain
"Always. Expect. Ninjas." - Syndey Scoville
User avatar
Mark N
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Mark N »

NOTDilbert wrote:Actually, it was Shelly # 2. The first pass through time, NO-ONE was aware that it would reset 2012-12-21. After the first reset, Jin noticed and started working on the problem.

So the first/last Shelly to die was #2. # 57 is Shelly-the-sphinx.

I think. (c8
I see why you would think that but if you think about it the numbering system is by resets so "reset 1" is the first replayed world and the original timeline is "zero" so it has no attachment to anything. Think of birthdays. You do not count the time of your birth, it is "zero" and your first birthday is "day 357".

Well I think so at least. :roll:
This message is brought to you by the "Let the artist know how much you LOVE his work" council.
User avatar
Bathorys Daughter
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:02 am

Re: Fallen Angel 2012-08-27

Post by Bathorys Daughter »

Mark N wrote:I see why you would think that but if you think about it the numbering system is by resets so "reset 1" is the first replayed world and the original timeline is "zero" so it has no attachment to anything. Think of birthdays. You do not count the time of your birth, it is "zero" and your first birthday is "day 357".

Well I think so at least. :roll:
There may not have even been a Shelly in the time period leading up to the very first reset. It could be that Shelly, Monica, etc. owe their very existence in all subsequent time cycles to Jin's manipulation of people and events, insuring the right people are born at the right time, under the right circumstances to make her plan come to fruition each cycle. Whether Jin knew of Bia's (and possibly Brandi's) plans and schemes is unclear.
A society should not be judged on how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals... ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky.
Post Reply