Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:29 pm

eee wrote:This is so not going well... :cry:
AnotherFairportfan wrote: It wasn't talking to her great-grandmother - who was actually there, being Someone Else in disguise - but her apparent suicide attempt, running in front of a bus in Mexico City, because she was being driven by her demons
Nitpick: Weren't they Tina's demons, out deliberately hurting Monica - someone other than their host - as part of the plan to fix the Calendar Machine and depose Jin's Doubt as Queen of the Demons? Although since Tina, driving behind the bus, wound up being killed when she slammed into the back as it stopped suddenly for Monica, her demons hurt her, too. :(
No - Tina's demons were involved, but it was Monica's own Doubt who was chasing her/that she was running from - i ran across a page in which Doubt and Monica were confronting each other where they both specifically said so. I think it was somewhere in the sequence where Lust and Vanity wind up feeling her up (Doubt's words) from the inside.
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Opus the Poet » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:33 pm

Kerric wrote:Bud's interpretation of M's behavior (driving away those to whom she had been close) seems very different (and darker) than Tina's interpretation (two souls reaching out to each other who desperately want to be together). Do you think one of them is right and the other wrong? Or can the two interpretations be reconciled?
I think both things are happening at the same time, M and Jet reaching for each other, and M trying to protect those she was close with before her transformation into the Jaguar Girl. Jet was not close before the transition and did not become close until after, and is mostly aware of what M can do as JG from personal experience, so M is not as concerned about hurting Jet as she would be with the others who entered the relationships before M knew about her powers. Apparently she always had powers but the combination of learning Lanthian Glyph, becoming a Doorway to the Demon Realm, having the Key stuck in her head to lock the Door, and the Phoenix Blood on (in?) the Key have given her immense power, a Sub-Titan as it were. And M never knew she had any of these powers in potentia until Bud and Shelly literally beat her over the head with them. That has to have an effect on her interactions with older characters (time-line wise, not chronologically in-story).
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Yamara » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:41 pm

Boxilar wrote:(from yesterday, emphasis Yamara's)
As to some other stuff. Some folks have said some particularly unkind things about Monica. She really doesn't deserve them. She's not innocent. She refused to recognise that she was using him and never let him get close to her. It's a shitty situation, but as usual in Wapsi, the people truly responsible are dead and gone, and the living are left to pick up the pieces.
!

I'm going to fire up my Contraritron, and say, no. No, I don't think they are all dead and gone.

And I think Monica may be playing a few steps ahead.

There is some established-but-unfinished business, and she needs the "plausible d" of jettisoning the people she loves in order to effect it. Like any super's secret identity, it's the best way to keep them safe, for the challenge ahead.

That leaves Jet, but she's both entre and mentor into a social world M has long tried to avoid... until, suddenly, now.



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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Sidhekin » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:53 pm

Dave wrote:They've been together for years (Wapsi time). They've already been through one conflict/crisis due to the fact that Monica had chosen to hide her whole involvement with the paranormal from Kevin. She told him, only when forced to by circumstances. He didn't freak, didn't judge, has accepted the weirdness (including being poited into a womn's restroom) and has been cool and supportive.

Now, he learns that Monica had yet another piece of turbulent life-shaping history... which she didn't trust him to know about, despite what they'd been through before. And, now that she's chosen to disclose it to him, she doesn't want him to be any part of the life-process she's going to be going through to resolve it. She doesn't want, or doesn't trust, or won't accept his help and active support. She'd rather walk away from their relationship, than try to fix whatever she feels is wrong about it.

That has to be throwing a cold perspective on how he sees their relationship, looking back on it through the years. It's gotta be saying things to him, about the limitations of what he actually ever meant to her. "Chew-toy" is harsh, but I can see how he got there.
Now that is a reasonable description.

But it's not a novel observation. Jet tells M "you hurt those around you". Tina says M and Jett both will "unintentionally hurt anyone else who gets close to them". M tells Kevin how she's "been treating him" and Jet "he shouldn't be used like that". It's pretty much agreed among the WS folks in the know that M (however unintentionally) hasn't been treating Kevin fairly.

... though to the readers, it's established through a method of tell-don't-show, which I imagine is part of the reason why it seems to take some time to sink in. (And having said that, I'm not sure how one might show-don't-tell this "mistreatment", all the while Kevin himself had no idea he'd been "nothing more than a chew-toy" until she told him, and their interaction is a lengthy motif. Tricky.)
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Sidhekin » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:25 pm

AnotherFairportfan wrote:No - Tina's demons were involved, but it was Monica's own Doubt who was chasing her/that she was running from - i ran across a page in which Doubt and Monica were confronting each other where they both specifically said so. I think it was somewhere in the sequence where Lust and Vanity wind up feeling her up (Doubt's words) from the inside.
Ah, but that was before it was revealed that Tina's demons hurt Monica. And got "time-stopped" as a result, so they must have done more than "just 'talk'". (I'm not sure if M's Doubt would have suffered the same, had she been actively involved, since there's this stuff about "the only person I was allowed to misguide".)

M didn't know at the time that Tina's demons were involved, and M's Doubt would make sure she didn't learn it. Yet. At this point in the story, M must still be kept unaware of these machinations.

Now, the complication. Shelly and Connie have a different idea: "No point in ever asking you, you wouldn't remember anyways. Auto punishment and all. Same with Tina and M's demons for being in on the crash incident."

This seems to suggest that M's demons are amnesiacs. But that seems to directly contradict Tina: "I'm only aware of this time line. Monica's demons know more than that."

So, I'm unsure of the extent to which M's Doubt was involved (there's plenty suggesting involvement, and at least two instances suggesting active involvement), but Tina's demons were definitely an active party. That's a major plot point.
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Dave » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:04 pm

Sidhekin wrote:Now that is a reasonable description.

But it's not a novel observation.
Wellll... depends what you mean by that.

In Wapsi time, it's only been a few days since Georgette confronted Monica with this interpretation of her behavior, and Tina pretty much confirmed it. Both Tina and Georgette have a sort of "insider's view" into Monica's psyche... Tina because of her demonic nature, and Georgette because she and Monica were "tranced together" during the Tar Incident. It's even open to question whether Tina saw this much back during the Tar Incident... she saw that Georgette needed Monica's help (and she was compelled to make that happen) but she wasn't anywhere near as explicit about them needing each other and she didn't mention Kevin at all back then.

Based on Monica's reaction (and her comments to Kevin that "Someone held up a mirror to me, and I finally looked"), this view of things was novel to her (or, at most, she had a buried sense of it, and this is the first time she faced it consciously). I don't think we've seen anything in Kevin's reaction which suggests that he'd seen things this way, either, until Monica dropped the info-bomb on him. And, I can't recall seeing anything from any of the other "old guard" about the health of Monica's involvement with Kevin... in fact, both Nudge and Tsillah seemed rather disturbed when they mistakenly believed Kevin had broken up with Monica.

So, it's not entirely novel to us, on our side of the fourth wall... but it does appear to have been novel to Kevin... and kinda to Monica as well (at least on the conscious level). Some of the clues were there, for all to see, but now it's out "in the open" for the first time.

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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Deuce » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:05 pm

Reani wrote:First of all yeah, agreeing with the person who said Monica's not a true sociopath-- she shows remorse ALL the time. She was horrified by what she did to the Tar, even though in her place, many people would have reacted the same way against someone/thing that'd raped them, given the power. Yes, it was horrific but what it did to her was terrible, particularly given her history with rape and she reacted out of that raw emotion without thinking. After she did it though, her reaction was one of horror at her own actions-- which a sociopath doesn't have. She's also not very happy with what happened with Kevin herself (she claims to hate him in that panel (and I read that in the same facetious way I claim to hate my super successful younger sister) because he IS a good kind person and she caused him pain, and he reminded her of what a good kind person he is while she was doing it. Also she might realize she wouldn't handle it so well in his place) , and showed a lot of hesitance to break it off. A sociopath would have bailed the moment Jet showed up, wouldn't have pointed out that she had Kevin. A sociopath might even attempt to "keep" both Jet and Kevin, enjoying using Kevin too much to give it up once she realized she was doing it or came to accept it.

Monica's not crazy at all in a schizophrenic or delusional way, but she certainly has been through a lot of traumatic events in her life. I would guess, in my armchair psychologist way, that she's got quite a strong case of PSTD. She definitely could use counseling, anyway. (I believe that she mentioned she did see a counselor after the incident in the hospital, but so much has happened since then, and it'd probably help if it was a counselor who she could trust not to think she's nuts when she brings up the supernatural aspects, which are very important.) Anyway, people who've been hurt in the way Monica has tend to keep everyone at arm's distance regardless, and have trouble trusting anyone. I say this as someone who's had issues with this personally-- it's not that we don't like people, or even love them, but that we're terrified, and we can't help it and there's very little control there. There's this comment in Evangelion (I know, I know :roll: ) about how some people are like porcupines-- they want to get close to other people but they're scared of prickling them at the same time, and being prickled.

Honestly it's also very hard to know the right time to come out and tell people about things like that, even when you're in a close relationship. You have to know the person for a while, you're not going to tell them right away even when you start seriously dating, but then it becomes this issue of "but why didn't you tell me before", so you can't tell them then. And it just gets worse and worse. And every victim of sexual abuse or other trauma is different and deals with it differently and at a different pace, and that should be respected as well.

I don't know. I guess I'm trying to give some insight into Monica's thought process, or at least my reading of it. She's a very hurt person who needs help, and she's on a self destructive spiral, which is rather common in people like that. Pushing your friends and loved ones away is really common.

I don't know that Kevin and Bud are equipped to help her in the way she needs. I don't know if they want to, and if they don't that's perfectly understandable. Jet certainly doesn't seem to be, there's a case of the blind leading the blind there. And she doesn't seem to be aware of the fact that there's a problem and I know the saying about the first step is cheesy but it's true. You can't fix something if you don't know it's broken. It's very difficult to tell someone that something about them IS broken, and to do it in a way that won't just push them away further.

It's painful to see Kevin hurt like this, he's a kind and loveable character, but I am loving this storyline because of how much it makes me think and how compelling it is. It's conflicting.
These are all really good observations. Kevin and Monica are both in a lot of turmoil right now, but Monica may just need this to heal.

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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by illiad » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:25 pm

Thanks for that link , FPF! :) it led on to another standard paul cliffhanger!!

I knew the latest one would be similar, even if it was not friday this time!! :)

Amazing how 'quiet' it seems, now they have realised it was NOT their worst fears... :D :D

Oh, and meisdadoo!!! YES, things DO happen, when they are not actually in the comic... :D ;)
(its like the line about startrek... you never see anyone go to the loo.. LOL )

Quite obviously Bud's apartment has a good view of M's front door, so she notices Kevin going in.. :)

(while doing something else we dont normally see - washing dishes while looking out the kitchen window... :) )

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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Jabberwonky » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:20 pm

Dave wrote:I'm getting a strong vibe here, in at least three ways: "Caught between worlds".

Monica is caught between the flawed, scarred mortal woman she's been, and the no-doubt-equally-flawed sub-Titan she has been made into.

Kevin is caught, in his way, between the mortal world and life that are his, and the rules and stresses of the paranormal world he's overlapped upon.

Bud is equally caught... the heart and spirit of a rather lonely late-teen, with the body and power and guilt of an immortal who knows she can destroy worlds (because she has already done so, pretty much).

There really aren't any bad guys here... there's no evil, nor deliberate cruelty... just sentient beings, each both empowered and flawed in his or her own way, each bearing the weight of the past and the uncertainty of the future. Each and every one of them can hurt, and does.
My favorite summing up so far...
Dave wrote:The one good thing about the situation is that the lake appears to be fully frozen. It would be difficult for him to throw himself in, and drown his despair. :?
But he might end up in the Emergency Room with a big goose egg on his forehead...
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:44 pm

Here's an interesting page: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/08312004/
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by jwhouk » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:59 pm

AnotherFairportfan wrote:Here's an interesting page: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/08312004/
Only took her ten years.
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Warrl » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:43 pm

I agree that Monica is clearly not a sociopath, for reasons already stated.

That unfortunately does not mean Monica also agrees.

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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by illiad » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:58 pm

jwhouk wrote:
AnotherFairportfan wrote:Here's an interesting page: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/08312004/
Only took her ten years.
'comic time' is NOT the same as Real time... grrlpowercomic.com has been going since 2010, and the 'comic time' that has passed is barely ONE day... :)

we need the real expert here for a timing, but my rough guess is only one or two years...


read the details in the current one for a talk about sexuality in comics... ;)

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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by jwhouk » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:11 pm

Point of order?

Even though the boss hasn't really mentioned it, comic time roughly follows the calendar...
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by AnotherFairportfan » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:29 pm

jwhouk wrote:Point of order?

Even though the boss hasn't really mentioned it, comic time roughly follows the calendar...
Which doesn't mean it's one-for-one with real time.

Many years ago, in a text page in Marvel comics, they explained "Marvel Time".

The story may take only a day or two of internals time, but it may be spread over several issues. So what they did (haven't read Marvel except sopradically for years) was to make each issue's setting appropriate to the time it would be published - so a story that covered a day in Spider-Man's life might start out on Valentine's Day, and include the Fourth of July, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Chtistmas and New Year's Eve.

But i's still only a day in Spider-Man's life.

Since the background visuals and events you see in the comic mirrors what is happening around you, you don't really notice.
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by zachariah » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:14 pm

Why is everyone seem to be ignoring one of Tina's words about Jet and Monica. These are NOT two souls reaching for each other because they need each other. They are two DAMAGED Souls. What we saw was the two damaged parts reaching for each other.
This changes the import of what is happening. These souls are damaged, warped, and hurting. Each sees in the other something that maybe, I repeat maybe, able to heal them. So this is not really love, it is need. Need is not really a good foundation for a relationship long term. They don't even know what it is they need from each other and where this will end up. What they have is by getting together they reduce damage to others around them from their efforts to bond. Unless they figure out how to heal each other this will turn messy and nasty indeed. Anyone trying to help could get badly burned as well. Monica trying to self justify by hating Kevin? Jet using emotional black mail to get Monica to go with her. Monica taking dominant charge of the relationship right away, she told Jet to go home and wait for her, not ask. Jet doesn't even understand what she needs and Monica does not either. I doubt they are willing to listen to anyone else either. They might survive this but not sure how they will manage it.
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by jwhouk » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:24 pm

Acacia is right, though. She's pushing everyone away.



Including us.
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Yamara » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:18 pm

jwhouk wrote:
AnotherFairportfan wrote:Here's an interesting page: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/08312004/
Only took her ten years.
And not without reminding either. Seems demons are being listened to more often now...

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/whatamidoing/


Oh, and keep reading the rest of their conversation. An informed public, and all that.
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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Hansontoons » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:06 pm

Wapsi time, it is what it is. Relax, you're quite safe here.

Jet and M, sitting on a bed talking. What's to say it is anything more than that? M just did a crappy thing that she felt was necessary. Jet is a mess. Talk is what will happen. Girls do that.

Bud's right, lot's of hurt going on.

Kevin's half-shave? How about effect of lighting. Mr. Taylor employs it on occasion.

It's an interesting time in the story. Have patience, savor the experience.

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Re: Tired of Hiding 2014-11-20

Post by Thor » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:06 pm

While we are waiting for the continuation of the ongoing Bud/Kevin interaction, it might be a good time to review a previous Bud/Kevin interaction, now with much more interesting subtext!

Start here: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/nocoffee/

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