Paying Attention 2014-01-22

[zachariah]

While everyone is making good points I don't think what is happening is purely due to Monica trying to get Sali to think and grow up. Monica basically exploded in a rant at Sali. In response to that Sali burst into an extreme crying fit. While Monica's words were harsh why would they produce tears like that? Sali is very self contained about her feelings mostly. Most of what we've seen shows she doesn't really talk about them with others and just harbors them inside. The hurt along with the good. So why the outburst? Not because it is Monica getting on her. Kathy came down on her a lot harder a few times during the adventure and Sali didn't cry like this. When Sali felt she had been just dropped afterwards she didn't cry like this. Something else is at play here. We shouldn't get locked into the idea that this is simply about the interaction between Monica and Sali. Tina and her problems is the main issue right. Something about this is affecting them is my guess just don't know what. So let's keep an open mind for a day or two.

[sheik]

Take it from an adult who didn't get the privilege of learning such lessons at Atsali's age.
She is far, far better off being clued in at 15 (no matter how painful it seems at the time) and having a normal social life than suffering the consequences of being clueless as an adult and doing without said Life.

[ActionKermit]

Man, there's been a lot of plotlines that revolve around main cast characters critically failing their social rolls recently.

[eee]

While everyone is making good points I don't think what is happening is purely due to Monica trying to get Sali to think and grow up. Monica basically exploded in a rant at Sali. In response to that Sali burst into an extreme crying fit. While Monica's words were harsh why would they produce tears like that? Sali is very self contained about her feelings mostly. Most of what we've seen shows she doesn't really talk about them with others and just harbors them inside. The hurt along with the good. So why the outburst? Not because it is Monica getting on her. Kathy came down on her a lot harder a few times during the adventure and Sali didn't cry like this. When Sali felt she had been just dropped afterwards she didn't cry like this. Something else is at play here. We shouldn't get locked into the idea that this is simply about the interaction between Monica and Sali. Tina and her problems is the main issue right. Something about this is affecting them is my guess just don't know what. So let's keep an open mind for a day or two.

Maybe. I'd point out, though, Monica isn't just an aunt by adoption or a friend / mentor to a young, socially awkward teen: She's the Jaguar Girl. A demi-goddess. Someone near the top of the heap in the Paranormal world. And she's raging and cursing at a young, socially awkward teen who is LOW on the Paranormal social scale and probably never expected her hero to suddenly turn on her. If Atsali WASN'T sobbing her eyes out at this point, there'd be something wrong with her.

[GlytchMeister]

While everyone is making good points I don't think what is happening is purely due to Monica trying to get Sali to think and grow up. Monica basically exploded in a rant at Sali. In response to that Sali burst into an extreme crying fit. While Monica's words were harsh why would they produce tears like that? Sali is very self contained about her feelings mostly. Most of what we've seen shows she doesn't really talk about them with others and just harbors them inside. The hurt along with the good. So why the outburst? Not because it is Monica getting on her. Kathy came down on her a lot harder a few times during the adventure and Sali didn't cry like this. When Sali felt she had been just dropped afterwards she didn't cry like this. Something else is at play here. We shouldn't get locked into the idea that this is simply about the interaction between Monica and Sali. Tina and her problems is the main issue right. Something about this is affecting them is my guess just don't know what. So let's keep an open mind for a day or two.

Maybe. I'd point out, though, Monica isn't just an aunt by adoption or a friend / mentor to a young, socially awkward teen: She's the Jaguar Girl. A demi-goddess. Someone near the top of the heap in the Paranormal world. And she's raging and cursing at a young, socially awkward teen who is LOW on the Paranormal social scale and probably never expected her hero to suddenly turn on her. If Atsali WASN'T sobbing her eyes out at this point, there'd be something wrong with her.

Ding! That's exactly what I thought. It would be like Steve Irwin or Leonardo da Vinci yelling and cursing at me. Even at my age, I'd still probably cry from that. Especially if they have a point.

[jwhouk]

It's a similar situation. Shelly and Monica were just as clueless as Atsali is here when they went on their romp in downtown. Both of them are adults, but they grew up human. Monica went from a mortal with access to the power of the GGGs and the ability to POIT, to being a Demigod almost overnight.

Did she? I've got a top-ten list of questions about things in the comic (since I've done the re-reading of the archives), and I'm starting to wonder when, exactly, Monica reached "Jaguar Girl" status. Was it back when she first spoke to Mayahuel (as her long-dead great-grandma)? Was it after Jin "saved" her? Was it when she first poited to the Library? Was it when she got the blade stuck in her head? Was it after the third time she'd gotten "frozen" by Euryale?

[jwhouk]

Man, there's been a lot of plotlines that revolve around main cast characters critically failing their social rolls recently.

I think "Social Skills" aren't a required skill among "Supernatural Class" characters - or "Geeks and Nerds" class, either.

[KnightDelight]

You know, harsh though what Atsali said is, it is still true. Tina is just a puppet whose strings are being pulled by several demons. They happen to be in Tina's body keeping it from rotting by some sort of energy infusion, but Tina is dead, period. Her body is dead. When they leave it at night, it is just a lifeless husk. She would fit the definition of a zombie. A pleasant, cheerful, friendly, thinking zombie, but a zombie nonetheless. This truth may have finally hit her/them. She's been in denial about what she really is for some time now, the demons trying their best to fit into the human world. At the moment, they may be seriously considering Atsali's words and may be mulling over as to whether it's really worth it or not. This revelation could be courtesy of Bia's recent meddling as well as, Atsali's attitude. Atsali has been a mirror for her. A reminder that she is still a creature and not a real girl. Nor is she likely to become one, as far as she knows anyway.

It could be Monica will have to make another appearance in the demon world to fix this if, as someone suggested, even the rats have finally abandoned the ship. Atsali, in the meantime, will need a time out. Perhaps over by the pastry area. That, and her phone should keep her amused.

[scantrontb]

Did she? I've got a top-ten list of questions about things in the comic (since I've done the re-reading of the archives), and I'm starting to wonder when, exactly, Monica reached "Jaguar Girl" status. Was it back when she first spoke to Mayahuel (as her long-dead great-grandma)? Was it after Jin "saved" her? Was it when she first poited to the Library? Was it when she got the blade stuck in her head? Was it after the third time she'd gotten "frozen" by Euryale?

it was actually the time frame right after she sent Nudge into the volcano, then ended up at The Library and slept overnight there... the Library itself noticed a change and scanned her, then announced to all, that her status had changed... so to answer your question... i'd say it was sometime during the night when she subconsciously *accepted* that she was a dangerous entity, rather than denying it any longer... then, as she woke up, the Library probably did some sort of generic "who's there and do they need books?" type of check to see if she needed anything and at that point it noticed the change from when she poited in the night before, and viola' the rest is history...

[KnightDelight]

Did she? I've got a top-ten list of questions about things in the comic (since I've done the re-reading of the archives), and I'm starting to wonder when, exactly, Monica reached "Jaguar Girl" status. Was it back when she first spoke to Mayahuel (as her long-dead great-grandma)? Was it after Jin "saved" her? Was it when she first poited to the Library? Was it when she got the blade stuck in her head? Was it after the third time she'd gotten "frozen" by Euryale?

Good question. My thinking is that she was always a Jaguar Girl "candidate." There may be several. She needed the phoenix blood to nearly complete the transformation, giving her a form of immortality. Finally, she had to die to officially become the next one. It could be Jaguar girls aren't born, they are created from a basic stock of human females with certain characteristics. This makes me wonder, what if some other group of paranormals create another one? Do they have to fight to the death (whatever that may mean) so there is only one? Or is it like a sperm and egg, only one can enter the egg/universe at a time? How hard is it to get phoenix blood anyway? Why did it take so very long to create another one for that matter? And ... what the hell happened to the previous one, considering they are immortal?

[scantrontb]

what the hell happened to the previous one, considering they are immortal?

i would assume that she died out when her universe itself died out... as per Georgette's Guidance, the last one was from a previous universe, and that for whatever reasons unknown to us, it wasn't until now that the conditions were right for the formation of another.

[Wyvern]

I've got a top-ten list of questions about things in the comic (since I've done the re-reading of the archives), and I'm starting to wonder when, exactly, Monica reached "Jaguar Girl" status. Was it back when she first spoke to Mayahuel (as her long-dead great-grandma)? Was it after Jin "saved" her? Was it when she first poited to the Library? Was it when she got the blade stuck in her head? Was it after the third time she'd gotten "frozen" by Euryale?

You may wish to start reading here and keep going a few days for the Jaguar Girl thing.

[Dave]

You know, harsh though what Atsali said is, it is still true. Tina is just a puppet whose strings are being pulled by several demons. They happen to be in Tina's body keeping it from rotting by some sort of energy infusion, but Tina is dead, period. Her body is dead. When they leave it at night, it is just a lifeless husk.

I'm not at all certain that this is true. It might be, mind you, but I don't think that's ever been explicitly stated in the strip (or by Paul, here or elsewhere), and it's not the only possible explanation.

We know that Tina was "dead", and was in the morgue. However, biological death isn't instantaneous - even in the cases of "true death", some parts of the body continue functioning for quite some time after others have completely shut down. And, there are are plenty of cases of people being "dead" (as the result of drowning or cold or electric shock or heart attacks or ???) and then being successfully revived. Some of them who have been revived, well after the nominal "four minutes to brain-death" benchmark, have recovered quite well. Death isn't binary.

At this point, I think it's an open question just how "biologically alive" Tina actually is. She might or might not be a "zombie, energized by an energy infusion"... that's one end of the possible spectrum. At the other end, she might be biologically quite healthy, except for her soul and memories being absent. In the middle, she might be more like a person in a profound coma... little or no fore-brain activity, but her hind-brain and other central nervous system still intact and functioning normally (but with the demons "pulling the strings" by interacting with her hind-brain).

We really don't know what Nudge had to do, in order to "jump-start" Tina's body in the morgue and get it moving again under the demons' control. Nor do we know (I think) just when Nudge first became part of the Tina crowd... it was at least as early as the wake-up in the morgue but could conceivably have been before that... at the moment of the accident or even earlier. It's possible that Nudge was able to repair much or all of the body's physical damage when she took up residence... she's a demigod and quite possibly a daughter of Charon, after all, and her nature and capabilities have never really been explored.

Tina does eat, it seems. She seems to have concerns about gaining weight and not fitting into her clothes. It appears (based on one of the demons' comments) that her body may be aging in a fairly normal human fashion. She apparently benefits by exercise. She's broken several bones, received what seemed to be normal human-style medical treatment, and healed. It appears likely that her hair grows (otherwise she'd have been very reluctant to cut so much of it off, as this would be an irrevocable action).

All of this suggests to me that she's functioning, biologically, in a way not very different from a normal living human.

If this is the case, then when the demons are absent Tina's body could be in a vegetative state, immobile, insensible, but very much alive. Just... empty.

[jwhouk]

What I was talking about with the question of "when did M become Jaguar Girl?" is more of a question of, "What actually started it all?" Yeah, kinda like the idea of conception.

I do like the idea, however, that Monica's "existence" as Jaguar Girl carried over from time reset to time reset. Perhaps she always was Jaguar Girl, but - kinda like how Shelly "forgot" upon her return from the Time Forest - she never remembers her "past incarnations" because too much time passed.

[Catawampus]

Tina's body is quite alive, biologically speaking. It eats, it feels pain, it heals, it ages, and so on. She's been to a doctor and that didn't cause a commotion. It's just that the original pilot jumped ship, and left the demon passengers in charge of steering things. Presumably everything up to and including the parts of the central nervous system involved in basic bodily survival managed to revive and walk out of the morgue. Whether the parts of the brain involved in higher mental functions are still there is another matter; the demons are doing all of that part now for themselves, so those bits might not be needed.

[Mark N]

What I was talking about with the question of "when did M become Jaguar Girl?" is more of a question of, "What actually started it all?" Yeah, kinda like the idea of conception.

I do like the idea, however, that Monica's "existence" as Jaguar Girl carried over from time reset to time reset. Perhaps she always was Jaguar Girl, but - kinda like how Shelly "forgot" upon her return from the Time Forest - she never remembers her "past incarnations" because too much time passed.

I would agree that Monica was always the Jaguar girl just as she has been in most of the time loops since Jin knew that she had to let Arron Sullivan go so he could meet M's grandma because Monica HAD to be born. As far as Shelly remembering, there is no reason she should. The current Shelly is the only one that has Phix's son and Bia as her parents (As per Paul). It is most likely Monica never awakened before the Calendar was compacted. The passage of time past the reset date was necessary to trigger the event we saw in the Library. I would hazard a guess that there is one Jaguar girl at a time and a new one is triggered when the previous one passes on, but now the equation is different since, for the first time, the Jaguar Girl has Phoenix blood and is immortal (not to mention has astral fire).

[Mark N]

Tina's body is quite alive, biologically speaking. It eats, it feels pain, it heals, it ages, and so on. She's been to a doctor and that didn't cause a commotion. It's just that the original pilot jumped ship, and left the demon passengers in charge of steering things. Presumably everything up to and including the parts of the central nervous system involved in basic bodily survival managed to revive and walk out of the morgue. Whether the parts of the brain involved in higher mental functions are still there is another matter; the demons are doing all of that part now for themselves, so those bits might not be needed.

If I am right and Nudge was in the body at the moment of death then she may have held the metabolism in check so the body would not break down from lack of oxygen. So we may even have been looking at a condition of metabolic stasis or a condition that looked like death to all but very sensitive instruments. If a paramedic saw a body in a crashed car and did not think there were life-signs they would not necessarily hook her up to an E.C.G. to see if she was alive and a doctor would pronounce in the hospital the same way. Remember, people have been found to have been barely alive while being opened by a pathologist in the past, it is just rare.

[jwhouk]

The accident also happened in Mexico, whose health care quality is not quite the same as in the US.

[illiad]

also demons, apos or whatever make the body seem normal to normal medical instruments... eg when the golem girls were given a check up, the normal pulse, xrays, etc produced what was expected.. not an 'empty' clay body...

[Fairportfan]

also demons, apos or whatever make the body seem normal to normal medical instruments... eg when the golem girls were given a check up, the normal pulse, xrays, etc produced what was expected.. not an 'empty' clay body...

However, Tina 2.0 woke up in the morgue, as i recall.