You Need To 2013-10-08

[Wdot]

I'm worried about the consequences of Monica's action on Georgette as well as the Tar's action and demise at the hands of Monica. That may also be why Tina is panicking and distraught. She isn't allowed to harm humans, but M isn't human, but Jet is. What if the 'cure' was worse than the disease. Maybe it was good for the demons, but not ultimately for Jet. I don't think M qualifies as human any more than Shelly does, and Tina would have stopped Shelly's heart to protect M.

Of course Tina is also very upset that her friend Monica was raped due to asking for help with 'Jet. That is a very heavy burden for her to bear. Sometimes even doing the right thing leads to misery in the end. Tina is moral and wants to help. Finding herself in a situation that doing the right thing caused harm to someone that she considers a dear friend is not something that she has experienced before and may not be equipped to deal with yet.

One other thing to ponder. If Tina messes up big time, it'll fall back on Phix. Phix protected Tina and basically put her life as bond for Tina's actions. This could have a chain reaction of deaths. I don't think Paul would do that, but the possibility may be there.

Politics. No. Just no. You do not discuss politics or religion at family and or social gatherings. Inevitably it leads to unpleasantness because both are usually strongly held points of view that are diametrically opposed by others of differing points of view and destroys the festive mood and angers the host.

[illiad]

well the only one who CAN kill her is Phix??? - but she is being very subtle, liking the 'humanising' of Tina, but not even telling the poor girl directly, who is still in 'why dont you punish me' mode, cant think straight...

[Dave]

well the only one who CAN kill her is Phix???

Well, we can probably assume that other sphinxes could also kill Tina (if they choose to do so).

We don't really know what Tina is thinking about, when she asked Monica to kill her. Monica is certainly powerful enough to kill Tina by poiting her somewhere lethal (volcano, mid-air)... but this wouldn't look like a "natural cause" death, and it might only kill Tina's human body and not the "rat pack" demons who are speaking. Based on her earlier comments, even Tina isn't sure if the demons of the collective will survive the eventual death of Tina's body.

Tina may be suggesting that Monica use her other Jaguar Girl powers to arrange her death in a natural-looking way... destroy or expel the demons, and leave the "rudder-less" body to simply shut down. Presumably this would be by means of Monica's astral fire... but Monica told Tar that her fire was harmless to demons.

So, I'm not at all sure how Tina expects Monica to kill her in a way which would look like a normal "natural cause" death. Perhaps as a Demon Shepherd she has the ability to "cast out" demons?

I'm worried about the consequences of Monica's action on Georgette as well as the Tar's action and demise at the hands of Monica. That may also be why Tina is panicking and distraught. She isn't allowed to harm humans, but M isn't human, but Jet is. What if the 'cure' was worse than the disease. Maybe it was good for the demons, but not ultimately for Jet.

Tina didn't seem particularly upset when Monica said that she'd destroyed Tar (violently and painfully). She specifically excused Monica for doing so... "you were in the wild", "it was a being that does not obey rules", "you rescued a girl who was being held captive." Tina didn't seem at all concerned that the results for Georgette would be anything but good... and Monica seems to have accomplished precisely what Tina had expected, when she sent Monica into the covey-space trance to help Georgette.

It was only when Tina learned what had happened to Monica in the process, that she freaked out.

[illiad]

well we haven't seen Georgette yet, so cannot speculate on that...

As I said before, if this was a dream, it would mean something very different... Tar is an infection, dominating its 'empire' and attacking intruders...

do you know how viruses attack?? attack the cell, shove your DNA inside, and make hundreds more viruses... sound familiar??
so you get to your doctor to inject something to KILL it... :/

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/c ... human2.htm

[Dave]

Interesting little bit of divergence in Tina's dialog. The collective says "I didn't know..."

and then, the lone speaker (Blackwing?) says "I didn't prepare you. I could have warned you. I shouldn't have made you go in there not knowing."

This suggests that Blackwing (or whomever) has been holding knowledge back from the rest of the collective. He/she/it had more complete information about what Monica would be facing, and didn't intervene and disclose this when the collective decided that Monica was the solution to 'Jet's infestation.

If this is correct, Tina's mistake wasn't entirely innocent, made purely out of ignorance. There was also some level of choice (and active misjudgment) involved.

[Timotheus]

Timotheus wrote:

Tina is in a panic. Not because she's afraid of some kind of divine judgement, but simply because she let her best friend be harmed. Being a friend means a whole lot to Tina's demons, and they wanted to do "good" for M as well as Jet, and it went a tad wrong.

Their reaction, "kill me, I deserve it" again, proves that they still are wild creatures, with vèry primal reactions to happenings.

What they stíll do not understand, despite Phix almost spelling it out for them, is that remorse, repentance, all the feelings that are flooding her/them now, makes them/her just thát much more "human".

But, that's just my €0,01[\quote]

I didn't write that, although it goes along with what I've been feeling. As does the rest of the quote. While I don't really have the time or words to fully write out my thought process on the subject, what I believe we've been seeing in Tina's situation is the indescribable process by which her covey of formerly separate emotional aspect demons are through necessity reforging themselves into a new human soul.

Shelly's Connie got a boost in this direction by either being formed around a different soul or (as I much prefer to think) came in contact with one long enough for it to act as a catalyst along with Shelly's multi ethnic background to allow Connie to transform herself using some of Shelly's own soul.

Tina's demons didn't have this advantage and had to muscle ahead on their own, although they did have Nudge to help hold them together (and possibly the winged one). So since they walked out of the morgue on their own two feet the "rats" have been desperately copying human behavior, not just as an intellectual exercise like demons usually do but as a matter of life and death. And in the process they have begun to merge and form working coalitions, a group mind if you will, and behind that a group set of ethics and beliefs, a common will. Tina has developed a set of morals and a personal code of honor, a belief system and sense of self. She is an individual and a single personality despite the fragmented nature of her background. Whether she has created her own soul yet or not is the question.

[sheik]

I suspect Phix is actually monitoring this very closely and will only step in when she sees things are getting out of hand.
She's old enough to know these "children" need the school of hard knocks to educate them in their new lives and is probably confident they will do the right thing and learn the lessons they will need in later life...eventually.
Unless I miss my guess, Monica is in no danger of killing Tina on Tina's command, as befits the role of Demon Shepherdess and Tina is showing something that demons don't normally have...personal responsibility.

[Dave]

Unless I miss my guess, Monica is in no danger of killing Tina on Tina's command, as befits the role of Demon Shepherdess and Tina is showing something that demons don't normally have...personal responsibility.

Reminds me a bit of the splash-landing of the DC-8 named "Shiga" in San Francisco Bay in 1968, and the statement reportedly made by Captain Kohei Asoh at the subsequent hearing before the National Transportation Safety Board.

The "Asoh Defense" is a classic of its sort, and I think Tina is definitely in that mode right now.

[KnightDelight]

Whoa! Things are serious now. Really serious. Monica might be about to learn that with great power comes great, sometimes painful, responsibility.

Here's my "what if." What if Georgette was molested/raped as a child and has followed the pattern? That is to say, she has done the same to others. May be doing the same to others even now. Maybe there are more reasons she wants to disappear than just wanting to be rid of her fame. Of course that may change now that Tar is gone, but the guilt will only be multiplied for her now since that particular voice of rationalization is gone. She could wake up (reboot?) with overwhelming guilt and pull a Jin, trying to commit suicide right away (not unlike Tina) from sudden overwhelming guilt. There is a reason one needs to take time to overcome one's personal Tar, rather than just having it eliminated outright. Monica may have been too quick on the trigger.

I also think that, as Jaguar Girl, the decision to kill Tina would be much easier for her. She seems to be under a different set of emotions and a different thought process when she goes into full JG mode. Killing and even torture aren't as much of a problem then it would seem. Tina just needs to make her mad enough.

I'll throw in my 2 cents against political anything in here. Political jokes, puns or otherwise are, like Tar, an infection to any board and should be eliminated for the good of the body.

[Fairportfan]

well the only one who CAN kill her is Phix???

Well, we can probably assume that other sphinxes could also kill Tina (if they choose to do so).

Well, she certainly recognised and feared another sphinx as soon as she encountered her (as a sphinx)...

[Dr. Otter]

Reminds me a bit of the splash-landing of the DC-8 named "Shiga" in San Francisco Bay in 1968, and the statement reportedly made by Captain Kohei Asoh at the subsequent hearing before the National Transportation Safety Board.

The "Asoh Defense" is a classic of its sort, and I think Tina is definitely in that mode right now.

I tell that story, but it was often dismissed as a bad joke because more often than not, the listener heard "Asoh" as "A**hole." Now I take a little more time in the setup to ensure that it is understood. If you have no idea what this is all about, this Wikipedia article contains a brief summary, although not as brief as Captain Asoh.

[txmystic]

It is oft repeated on many a board, some of which (that were favorites of mine) were ultimately shut down because of it: don't feed the trolls.

Now, someone of the non-troll persuasion (of which I count pretty much everyone here, thank goodness) may innocently post a political/religious/lewd joke that begs, I say BEGS for a response, even to say cease and desist. But even a cease and desist response is a response, so it's a catch-22...how to request stoppage without requesting stoppage.

Simple. Do not reply. Or even acknowledge.

If you must, just hit the handy "!" button to the left of the "quote" button and let it go. Peace will reign.

[Catawampus]

It's interesting to see what Tina is and isn't okay with.

Monica lost control and acted like a monster: fine.

Monica tortured the Tar: fine.

Monica killed the Tar: fine.

Monica was sent not fully prepared: horrifying and unacceptable, and now she must kill Tina. Which leaves the question of in precisely what way is that wrong to Tina? She knew full well before sending Monica off to fight the Tar that Monica had no idea what was going on, yet she didn't see anything wrong with the situation then. Apparently there is no "thou shalt not send Jaguar Girls off to fight in utter confusion and bewilderment" rule that has been broken. So it must be the consequences of Monica's ignorance and unpreparedness that is the problem, not the unpreparedness itself. Is Tina's reaction due to the specific fact that Monica was raped, or is it due to realising that she made a more general mistake in how she manipulated Monica, or a combination of both, or neither?

Please don't kill off my beautiful, flawed Tina...

^that, soooo much that...

Now introducing George R. R. Martin's "Wapsi Square: A Song of Icy Roads and Astral Fire". . .

[Dave]

So it must be the consequences of Monica's ignorance and unpreparedness that is the problem, not the unpreparedness itself. Is Tina's reaction due to the specific fact that Monica was raped, or is it due to realising that she made a more general mistake in how she manipulated Monica, or a combination of both, or neither?

I think it's a combination / consequence issue. "I didn't think this through properly, I assumed more than I should have and took a short-cut, and as a result, my friend Monica was badly hurt. I am responsible." 20:20 hindsight. In particular, it appears that the solo speaker (Blackwing) may have known more about the Tar than the others in the collective, and could have given Monica some advanced warning, and didn't do so. Tina treated Monica rather like a tool or a weapon, rather than a partner or person... and is now seeing the results.

My guess (quite possibly wrong): if Monica had encountered the Tar and destroyed it in just the same way, without having been raped, Tina wouldn't be flipping out like this. She'd still be trying to persuade Monica that her sociopathic-killer-Jaguar reaction was perfectly normal and appropriate for the circumstances, and "just how things are" when you're a Jaguar Girl playing around in the feral demon realms.

Tina is probably still feral enough that she might not have really appreciated how difficult Monica was finding it to deal with her murderous, vengeful actions. She wasn't present to witness how torn up Monica was, when she thought she'd actually killed Nudge... or, for that matter, how traumatized Monica was when she witnessed Phix's meatsnack incident.

[Yamara]

If Paul wants to bring up certain hot topics in the story, then I would imagine those topics would be appropriate for the forums. But agita from off-topic controversies is worse than pointless.

One of the things I've been most impressed about Wapsi Square is how it brings out and together fans from all walks of life and all persuasions. I like that art can still do that. Humanity needs that space.

[Fairportfan]

"Tales of the Leather Nun"

[Bathorys Daughter]

well the only one who CAN kill her is Phix???

Well, we can probably assume that other sphinxes could also kill Tina (if they choose to do so).

I tend agree with Dave in that, It seems to me Phix was made responsible for Tina so that she might carry out her little experiment with Tina's covey. But with that responsibility comes the implicit agreement that, should anything go wrong, it is her responsibility to correct it, no matter what that may mean. No matter how difficult it may be for her personally. Basically, it's her burden and hers alone. No one else touches Tina unless ordered to from higher up the food chain (a term which has literal meaning in sphinx society).

[TheDOCTOR]

Okay so Basically....Monica beat the "TAR" out of Georgette? Excuse me while I sign over The Deed to my car for the Pun Jar.

[loxmyth]

I don't think Tina's going for a sympathy defense here. I think she's honestly facing the fact that while her intention was good, she misjudged and let one of her few real friends get injured. Guilt reinforced by geas reinforced by "this is how demons who have proven to be dangerous to folks other than their host have always been handled, whether they intended the damage or not". And I suspect that at the moment she isn't sure she can trust herselves. AND, given what we've seen, I don't think she's had a lot of experience with being wrong, which is going to make the whole thing come as that much more of a blow.

Guesswork, of course. We'll see how it develops over the next few days.

Y'know, we need a better term than "comic" for episodic graphic stories,