Return the Favor 2013-09-27

[MerchManDan]

"Semi-divine" = "from hell". Don't forget where Lucifer comes from. The devil smiles as he has just gotten another disciple.

You can't be serious. There's been no indication that "the devil" exists in the Wapsi Square universe, or that he has much influence over mortals if he does exist. Also, what dictionary equates "semi-divine" with "from hell?" (none that I can find)

Monica is now very much on the same level as Tar. The causality does not matter, what matters is what she (or Tar) are willing to do to others. She is just more powerful, i.e. far more of a threat than Tar ever was.

Incorrect: Causality matters. Context and circumstances matter. Tar is/was a monster, seeking only to get its own way by any means at its disposal: Bullying, rape, and there's no telling what else it has done - or, more accurately, what it coerced Georgette into doing. Or what it could be capable of doing in the future. It cannot be allowed to continue, and destruction is the only avenue left.

Yes, it's unfortunate that Monica seems to be enjoying this. But that doesn't mean she'll do it to random passers-by on the street just to feel that thrill again; she has morals & ethics. Her powers are vast, but her humanity is greater. How dare you suggest that she is the bigger monster here? Just....how dare you?

[Bathorys Daughter]

(Though honestly, I don't know that there could be a legitimate defense for this "condemned" creature's actions...I just think that it would have been worthwhile to determine where the Tar came from in the first place so there would be a better shot at preventing something similar in the future.)

I'm sure we'll find out all about Tar regardless. When I was reading about the Golems for the first time I thought they should be punished for their horrible crimes, not just loose to enjoy life. That seemed very wrong and I waited for them to get theirs in some way. Only later did I discover what lies beneath and became more understanding of them and their plight. At the moment, I see Tar as much the same. We don't yet know enough about it to simply condemn it totally.

If she had not aimed the force, or whatever it is, directly between Tar's legs, I would agree it's more like stabbing. But she did and said she was giving it a taste of it's own medicine. So I see it as rape also only much worse than anything Tar has done (as far as we know). Stopping it is one thing but this goes far beyond that,what with the disemboweling branch as well. Does M contain something more sinister than demons which is making it's presence known? At some point, Monica might split into two beings, a dark and a light version (no Monica lite jokes, please). At least become a Jekyll and Hyde type. I miss the person she used to be.

I guess I get too soft hearted. I'm still not entirely comfortable with the Nu Gui being trapped forever, aware of everything.

[Timotheus]

The tar appears to be a manifestation of evil itself.

Where do you get that?

(Wishful thinking?)

It's all black. Of course it has to be evil. Just check your color guide.

[Celos]

"Semi-divine" = "from hell". Don't forget where Lucifer comes from. The devil smiles as he has just gotten another disciple.

You can't be serious. There's been no indication that "the devil" exists in the Wapsi Square universe, or that he has much influence over mortals if he does exist. Also, what dictionary equates "semi-divine" with "from hell?" (none that I can find)

You really do not understand the statement? That is pretty pathetic. And since when do dictionaries define what semantics can be used in language? Or do you refuse to understand because my statement does not conform to the limits you want to impose on language?

Monica is now very much on the same level as Tar. The causality does not matter, what matters is what she (or Tar) are willing to do to others. She is just more powerful, i.e. far more of a threat than Tar ever was.

Incorrect:

You assume to have absolute truth? How dare you!

Causality matters. Context and circumstances matter. Tar is/was a monster, seeking only to get its own way by any means at its disposal: Bullying, rape, and there's no telling what else it has done - or, more accurately, what it coerced Georgette into doing. Or what it could be capable of doing in the future. It cannot be allowed to continue, and destruction is the only avenue left.

And what do we actually know about Tar? What does Monica know and has _verified_? Nothing. What she has is a statement by an entity she has known for a few minutes. It could be a complete lie. Could be Tar was not in control of itself during the rape, could be it was a misunderstanding, could have been an accident. But no, Monica is willing to rape, torture and kill without any real understanding of the situation. Does not get more dangerous (and easily manipulated) that this.

Yes, it's unfortunate that Monica seems to be enjoying this.

It is a bit more than that. Or massively more than that. Sadeism is the only explanation.

But that doesn't mean she'll do it to random passers-by on the street just to feel that thrill again; she has morals & ethics. Her powers are vast, but her humanity is greater.

Evidence suggests otherwise. Rather strongly so.

How dare you suggest that she is the bigger monster here? Just....how dare you?

And same back to you. Defending torturers is pretty repulsive. In fact it does not get much more repulsive than that IMO.

[Atomic]

Tar is not Old Yeller.
Turnabout is fair play.
Context matters.

Guidance has explained Tar's prior actions -- assuming she's not lying, M's actions would be appropriate to defend Jet.

BUT --- What is Tar and why is it there?

Shooting the messenger (no matter how well deserved) will not eliminate the message, nor it's source.

There's something else going on. Tar is the symptom, not the disease.

[HiFranc]

I can't help wonder if this is the correct course. If the thing was acting independently and if it did all the things it reported as having done, then it got death because it was hiding. It still doesn't justify the tree (that was revenge pure and simple). However, this is based on the testimony of one demon. What if that demon was lying? What if the Jet's demons controlled the tar? What does that mean then?

[MerchManDan]

You really do not understand the statement? That is pretty pathetic.

Insulting me doesn't equal defending your position.

And since when do dictionaries define what semantics can be used in language? Or do you refuse to understand because my statement does not conform to the limits you want to impose on language?

I'm not imposing any limits; the language itself imposes them. Pointing at an apple and calling it an orange does not make it an orange.

But that doesn't mean she'll do it to random passers-by on the street just to feel that thrill again; she has morals & ethics. Her powers are vast, but her humanity is greater.

Evidence suggests otherwise. Rather strongly so.

Well, don't leave us hanging: Show this evidence that proves Monica will use her powers to terrorize the Twin Cities populace like some kind of crazed supervillain.

Defending torturers is pretty repulsive. In fact it does not get much more repulsive than that IMO.

That's actually funny, considering you just defended a rapist:

Could be Tar was not in control of itself during the rape, could be it was a misunderstanding, could have been an accident.

[illiad]

gentlemen, please, lets not turn this into a shouting match....

I think you need to see a bit more scifi.. a lot of 'non-humans' may have their 'sensitive parts' in a totally different place, if they even have them!!!
see 'startek' where they try kneeing someone with NO effect...

[dex drako]

Guidance has explained Tar's prior actions -- assuming she's not lying, M's actions would be appropriate to defend Jet.

BUT --- What is Tar and why is it there?

Shooting the messenger (no matter how well deserved) will not eliminate the message, nor it's source.

There's something else going on. Tar is the symptom, not the disease.

you see I have to disagree with you there I think tar is the disease not the symptom.

this tar is not some emotional problems of Jet's given form, it's related to the plane crash. so it's something from outside of her and most likely something like the fear and hate of the people who died that day.

[Dave]

gentlemen, please, lets not turn this into a shouting match....

I think you need to see a bit more scifi.. a lot of 'non-humans' may have their 'sensitive parts' in a totally different place, if they even have them!!!
see 'startek' where they try kneeing someone with NO effect...

In junior-high chemistry class, we studied "destructive distillation" of materials. They had us put a small piece of wood into a test tube, heat it over a flame, study the vapors which boiled off as the wood charred (smelled like a campfire and made a nice jet of flame when ignited) and study what was left in the tube... charcoal, and a black tarry substance all over the glass.

You seem to be suggesting that Tar is the residue from the destructive distillation of a Ballchinian?

[Sgt. Howard]

When Monica went to the Bar
She was raped by a critter called 'TAR'
so she turned up the fryer
with astrial fire
and did 'Shish Kabob a la Mar'

[KnightDelight]

Huh. Despite my earlier halfhearted attempt to reference "Song of the South", I wonder if the thorny branch might in fact be related to the "Briar Patch" or bramble bush that Br'er Rabbit is tossed into. Once in the Briar Patch, or mass of thorn bushes, Br'er Rabbit uses the thorny stems and branches to scrap and comb out the tar from the Tar Baby from his fur and paws.

Good point. It's a well used saw in SF that something used to try to stop a monster actually makes it stronger. Could be Tar feeds off astral fire and raped Monica to get her to use it. Seems kinda doubtful at this point, but who knows. It could also justify splitting Tar up to insure death occurs if JG suspected as much. I have to wonder, however, why that would be painful to a creature which can literally break itself up into drops of fluid and splash about on it's victim? I'll chalk it up to it being a magic spiked tree.

And I wonder if what Georgette thought was blood all over her sister was actually Tar, or the beginning of Tar?

[KnightDelight]

Incorrect: Causality matters. Context and circumstances matter. Tar is/was a monster, seeking only to get its own way by any means at its disposal: Bullying, rape, and there's no telling what else it has done - or, more accurately, what it coerced Georgette into doing. Or what it could be capable of doing in the future. It cannot be allowed to continue, and destruction is the only avenue left.

Is destruction the only choice? Does Monica have to take care of Tar right this instant? Tar has been there a long time. Another day would not make much, if any, difference. Monica could leave and find out from those in the know how to contain it, then come back to do so. I'm reminded of this quote: "A choice between two evils is a flawed premise. There is always a choice which excludes evil." It's up to the individual to find it. I agree Monica's humanity is far greater than Tar's seems to be, but she also seems to be losing what she has.

In the end, all this hand wringing may be moot. We may simply see Tar painfully destroyed and move on with no further comics devoted to any moral ramifications of it all presented. After all, Paul didn't present any on the moral implications of keeping the nu gui aware while it is locked up, or the glee Bud felt about it. She was downright sadistic about the prospect of the crystal prison breaking up and multiplying the pain. Was it the nu gui's fault she is what she is?

[ActionKermit]

After all, Paul didn't present any on the moral implications of keeping the nu gui aware while it is locked up, or the glee Bud felt about it. She was downright sadistic about the prospect of the crystal prison breaking up and multiplying the pain. Was it the nu gui's fault she is what she is?

That was Lily, not Bud. Based on Phix' initial reaction to Lily and Suzie's first appearance in the library, it seems pretty clear that vampires live close to the dark side of the moral scale even at the best of times. Besides, she was already wound up from recalling her experience of dying out in the desert, and the Nü Gui was responsible for murdering an entire civilization in cold blood.

[Yamara]

I'm reminded of this quote: "A choice between two evils is a flawed premise. There is always a choice which excludes evil." It's up to the individual to find it. I agree Monica's humanity is far greater than Tar's seems to be, but she also seems to be losing what she has.

Hear, hear.

After all, Paul didn't present any on the moral implications of keeping the nu gui aware while it is locked up, or the glee Bud felt about it. She was downright sadistic about the prospect of the crystal prison breaking up and multiplying the pain. Was it the nu gui's fault she is what she is?

That was Lily gloating, and I take that as a survivor of the Etheitian holocaust having spent 6000+ years as a vampire getting some closure.

She hasn't shattered the crystal, has she? She has her Hitler in a box. I say she's earned a moment alone.

It's a well used saw in SF that something used to try to stop a monster actually makes it stronger. Could be Tar feeds off astral fire and raped Monica to get her to use it.

Like its using Monica's fury to grow vastly more powerful. Yeah. She's looking a mite gloppy in that top panel. And Guidance doesn't seem very happy.

Speaking of unhappy demons, I've always wondered. Who is the Rogue Queen speaking to in the first balloon here?:

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/became-human/

She's speaking about Monica, and then after that to Monica. While being pulled around by some black... stringy... substance.


Don't let the bed bugs bite.

[Atomic]

Guidance has explained Tar's prior actions -- assuming she's not lying, M's actions would be appropriate to defend Jet.

BUT --- What is Tar and why is it there?

Shooting the messenger (no matter how well deserved) will not eliminate the message, nor it's source.

There's something else going on. Tar is the symptom, not the disease.

you see I have to disagree with you there I think tar is the disease not the symptom.

this tar is not some emotional problems of Jet's given form, it's related to the plane crash. so it's something from outside of her and most likely something like the fear and hate of the people who died that day.

Point taken. But I'm not yet clear on which part of Cause and Effect is the embodiment that is Tar. The crash was complicated and others died. It Tar their demons infused into Jet? Is Tar Jet's defense against those demons?

Can't tell the players without a scorecard, and Monica is In Media Res defending herself (the rape) in Jet's name with no clear idea what Tar is other than being told it's new and it's a pest.

[meisdadoo]

Stop over thinking a cartoon--it is just a fictional story.

That being said, the best way to fight tar is with fire and heat to evaporate its essential oils and VOC content, leaving you with a stinky ash, which is tar's on fault if he ends up a pile of burned up asphault. . . .(throws his last 2 cents into the pun jar)

[ActionKermit]

Stop over thinking a cartoon--it is just a fictional story.

Overthinking fictional stories is half the fun!

[jwhouk]

A thought:

A while back - January of 2009, I think? - Paul put a sketch of something attacking the Chimera up on eBay.

The hand... looked just like the one in Friday's strip.

[Fairportfan]

After all, Paul didn't present any on the moral implications of keeping the nu gui aware while it is locked up, or the glee Bud felt about it. She was downright sadistic about the prospect of the crystal prison breaking up and multiplying the pain. Was it the nu gui's fault she is what she is?

That was Lily, not Bud. Based on Phix' initial reaction to Lily and Suzie's first appearance in the library, it seems pretty clear that vampires live close to the dark side of the moral scale even at the best of times. Besides, she was already wound up from recalling her experience of dying out in the desert, and the Nü Gui was responsible for murdering an entire civilization in cold blood.

...and leaving her and five other girls to die in the desert alone.

I would say that the Nü Gui was lucky she didn't smash the crystal and then grind all of the larger fragments under her heel into teeny tiny specks...

I would have, in her place.