Return the Favor 2013-09-27

[txmystic]

That is one seriously tortured... whatever it is (was).

That's Torchured

[MerchManDan]

Few things are as satisfying as semi-divine justice.

[Bathorys Daughter]

And Monica becomes Phix. The worst part of Phix. Judge, jury, executioner. No trial. No opportunity for the condemned to present a defense. Even taking delight in twisting the knife. This isn't justice. This is vengeance. Torture added to the mix. Monica has officially become a killer. A sadistic killer at that. She has crossed the line all the other "monsters" have crossed to become a monster herself. Things can never be the same.

Hopefully next week will bring clarification as to what Tar was and why it existed.

[Yamara]

As much as we're all enjoying Monica get revenge on the Tar thing, I do think she's missing something, perhaps due to her anger:

1. Nobody ever visits Jet's demon world (until now)
2. Tar has been there for some time (since childhood), but ignored by the Sphinxes as a Human Problem
3. Tar is a bully but for Hate and Anger keeping it in check
4. Tar attacked Monica, likely to establish dominance like it had bullied Jet's other demons (save Hate and Anger)

So -- what the hell is it, and where did it come from? More importantly, can it leave to escape Monica's wrath, simply to return after the battle, perhaps to infect Monica? Is Tar a symptom, or a disease?

Whatever training Phix gave Monica, I doubt "shoot first and ask questions later" was part of the advice. This is a bad case of bull in the china shop, and I fear it will end badly due to overreaction or missed opportunity.

You're overthinking it.

When you burn something to ash it doesn't come back unless it's a phoenix. Tar was a problem, now it's dead.

Raping a rapist creates another rapist. Problem perpetuates.

Sure, vengeance feels goood while you're doing it. But then, that's where that whole "morality" thing hits you the morning after.

Whatever training Phix gave Monica, I doubt "shoot first and ask questions later" was part of the advice. This is a bad case of bull in the china shop, and I fear it will end badly due to overreaction or missed opportunity.

It was directed at Shelly, but it was plainly for M's benefit too: "Don't be like me. Be better than me!"

I'm a bit more concerned that Tsillah's recent laissez-faire guidance is not what this situation needs.

But it's not over. There's still some Guidance just over her left shoulder. Hey, Guidance, wanna see your name in lights?

[Jay-Em]

And Monica becomes Phix. The worst part of Phix. Judge, jury, executioner. No trial. No opportunity for the condemned to present a defense. Even taking delight in twisting the knife. This isn't justice. This is vengeance. Torture added to the mix. Monica has officially become a killer. A sadistic killer at that. She has crossed the line all the other "monsters" have crossed to become a monster herself. Things can never be the same.

Hopefully next week will bring clarification as to what Tar was and why it existed.

Hmm. that's also a way of looking upon all of this. A view, mind You, I do not share.

Phix killed a complete human to get at the Demon trespasser. M entered C-Space (let's just keep calling it "c-space, since "astral-plane"has already been taken by marvel, so to speak), singled-out the specific evil entity and killed it (or at least, that's what it seems like)

And below/inside her Jaguar-Girl persona, there's still a person that has been violated on súch a deep level, that the reaction is absolutely understandable, and -depending on one's philosophy- the right reaction.

We are not talking Monica executing a whole coven of inner-demons, but more like her cutting away a malignent tumor. Tumors do not get trials. Tar. Is. Not. A. Person. It's the embodiement of something that entered Jet uninvited, like a rapist, and repeated that with Monica -or tried to-. I (personally!) do not see the problem here. Even moreso. This whole "Demon-Realm"is (to me) more like -i don't know how to express it in English_ "figurative"? It's drawn and shown to be experienced by the protagonists as something real&tangible, even though it's not. The whole Wapsiverse "demon"-thing is a parable?

And a good talk with a cuppa, doesn't work very well in Demon-Space. To me Demon-Space is a brutal, primitive realm, where being the authority has to be enforced by making horrible examples of trespassers and other usurpers. Or treating one's mental troubles as something physical that can be fought ,and conquered.

In short: Monica did not kill Jet to get at the tar. Contrary to the sphinxes' modus operandi.

What's also interesting to think about for a bit: Now Monica has experienced the real&primitive visceral way Jaguar-Girl functions, she will understand Phix much, múch better. Something that was not exactly so when Phix had her moments of Bloodlust. She and Phix will become múch closer I think.

What's of more interest to me is hów this tumor got into Jet. Is it an "elder evil"? a fallen God? A paranormal deviant?

Whát is it, and where did it come from.

[Swedish Chef]

It might also be a normal manifestation of all humans if one consider the Freudian slip, of the wood(yes pun jar I know), of our respective personalities.

All I can think about it are:

" Use your aggressive feelings, Mon. Let the hate flow through you. "
" Good, I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete! "

and still consider it possible Mon is goaded.

[Yamara]

And Monica becomes Phix. The worst part of Phix. Judge, jury, executioner. No trial. No opportunity for the condemned to present a defense. Even taking delight in twisting the knife. This isn't justice. This is vengeance. Torture added to the mix. Monica has officially become a killer. A sadistic killer at that. She has crossed the line all the other "monsters" have crossed to become a monster herself. Things can never be the same.

Hopefully next week will bring clarification as to what Tar was and why it existed.

The cleansing fire hasn't quite killed The Tar yet; could be in the very next panel, but not yet. But yes, we are seeing a rape for a rape.

Also, we get trial by jury from the Vikings. They knew that every crime wasn't solved by combat... but they were Vikings. This is still combat, even if The Tar doesn't want it to continue: The Tar struck first. Killing it, even hunting and trapping it first, that's combat. But the raping is just for Monica's enjoyment. Is she going to pillage The Tar, too?

WWBD?

We are not talking Monica executing a whole coven of inner-demons, but more like her cutting away a malignent tumor. Tumors do not get trials. Tar. Is. Not. A. Person. It's the embodiement of something that entered Jet uninvited, like a rapist, and repeated that with Monica -or tried to-. I (personally!) do not see the problem here.

I myself am not quick to depersonalize to resolve my ethics, because Godwin has an exception. Now a "rape blob"... well, that's just an indentifiable villain. Sure, that's a tumor. But here's the thing: Monica flushed the monster, and when it was cornered and had to reveal itself, only then did it take a HUMAN FACE.

It's revealed as more human, not less.

Where's Georgette?

[Yamara]

Bears repeating.

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/talkingaboutyourse/



now it's my turn to fix my kitchen

[eee]

As much as we're all enjoying Monica get revenge on the Tar thing, I do think she's missing something, perhaps due to her anger:

1. Nobody ever visits Jet's demon world (until now)
2. Tar has been there for some time (since childhood), but ignored by the Sphinxes as a Human Problem
3. Tar is a bully but for Hate and Anger keeping it in check
4. Tar attacked Monica, likely to establish dominance like it had bullied Jet's other demons (save Hate and Anger)

So -- what the hell is it, and where did it come from? More importantly, can it leave to escape Monica's wrath, simply to return after the battle, perhaps to infect Monica? Is Tar a symptom, or a disease?

Whatever training Phix gave Monica, I doubt "shoot first and ask questions later" was part of the advice. This is a bad case of bull in the china shop, and I fear it will end badly due to overreaction or missed opportunity.

I agree with this. It is possible Monica knows what she is doing, the Jaguar Girl persona has figured out what the Tar is and how it got there, and there's no point in keeping it alive any longer. But if she doesn't, unleashing death on it might be a bad idea. I am hopeful Guidance can recover from her shock and terror enough to live up to her name and try to get Monica to ease off until they can question Tar and determine the facts around it.

We have seen before that Jaguar Girl will lash out unrestrainedly at what she sees as an enemy, using her ability to sense what a creature is most afraid of to inflict the worst punishment she can. This may be what is happening again. And it also may be that this is the point at which Monica persona has to stop that, to take control of the situation and rein in her instinctive retaliation to make things turn out well. It will be difficult because Tar IS an enemy, not Nudge pushing her buttons; but perhaps this is a necessary step in becoming a true Jaguar Girl. Knowing when to quit.

[Celos]

So Monica is a torturer. Not good at all, the sadistic are always a serious problem. No, "revenge" is not an excuse, it is at best a pretext.

[Dave]

Most everybody seems to accept that Monica is doing exactly as she says... that she has unleashed her astral fire in a way intended to kill Tar in agony, and that this death is truly unavoidable.

May well be true (and would be quite consistent with Monica's offended anger and Jaguar Girl rage)... or, Monica might be bluffing or holding back, and trying to wring some other sort of reaction from Tar?

If it's true, then Monica may well have some morning-after consequences to deal with... killer's remorse... even in the face of how offensive and evil an entity Tar appears to be. This is one hell of a line Monica seems to be stepping over here. Just as with her poiting of Nudge into the volcano, she's letting her anger rule her power... and although Tar may indeed be as evil as it seems, this act will still shape Monica in ways which probably won't be good.

As her swordfighting instructor told Segnbora, whenever you strike and kill another in anger, a little bit of you goes through the Door into death along with them... a part of you which cares and feels. Do it often enough, and all that is left of you is a killing machine. "See how easily your anger took control of you?"

"What should I feel, then, if I must kill?"

"Sorrow. Grief. What else... when you're killing someone who is a part of yourself?"

[Celos]

Few things are as satisfying as semi-divine justice.

Indeed. "Semi-divine" = "from hell". Don't forget where Lucifer comes from. The devil smiles as he has just gotten another disciple. Why do people keep confusing revenge and justice?

The sad fact is that Monica now is a rapist and a torturer. Sure, Tar now also is a victim, but that does not balance anything. In fact, Monica is now very much on the same level as Tar. The causality does not matter, what matters is what she (or Tar) are willing to do to others. She is just more powerful, i.e. far more of a threat than Tar ever was.

[Sphinx-Napped]

well tar i can see you have becomed treed and i hope for future knowledge,if you survive this..... DONT FUCK DA JAGUAR GIRL

wonder what tar-tar of tar sells for with hint of wood?

[DilyV]

Few things are as satisfying as semi-divine justice.

Indeed. "Semi-divine" = "from hell". Don't forget where Lucifer comes from. The devil smiles as he has just gotten another disciple. Why do people keep confusing revenge and justice?

The sad fact is that Monica now is a rapist and a torturer. Sure, Tar now also is a victim, but that does not balance anything. In fact, Monica is now very much on the same level as Tar. The causality does not matter, what matters is what she (or Tar) are willing to do to others. She is just more powerful, i.e. far more of a threat than Tar ever was.

I don't believe that Monica is doing this to get pleasure out of it... nor do I believe that Monica feels satisfaction/justification for having done it, regardless of the fact she's been violated. This is a punishment, pure and simple for the tar, to teach it humility if anything else... in a kind of 'how does it feel' way. I don't know for sure if she will actually kill the tar, but I think this is more of a rather harsh way to let the tar know who's in charge before the real questioning starts. What better way to let the demon-space know that there's a new sheriff in town?

I think we can rest assured that Monica will be spending a lot of time with Phix and the library trying to reconcile what she's doing to the tar with her sense of right and wrong. Her reaction to what she did to Nudge is a prime example. Demons and interlopers who operate on this kind of scale don't respond to half measures. Monica will do what is needed first, and agonize about it later.

[zachariah]

M entered C-Space (let's just keep calling it "c-space, since "astral-plane"has already been taken by marvel, so to speak)

This place has nothing to do with the astral plane which is a completely different aspect of reality. This is Covey Space where the demons reside inside a person after they have been assigned. It comprises a very basic universe design for the demons to live and work in. It also provides a direct connection to their host, or victim, during their stay. Actual volume and structure vary according to the demons influence. In a featureless area how else could the TAR hide? Time is probably variable too. After all what is time to a demon.
On the other hand the astral is basically a different way to perceive our reality and mentally travel, or see, through it. The two are totally different.

[Fairportfan]

Does this imply that Monica's bark is worse than her bite? Or just that Tree's company?

There is a pun vault tapping some appendage on the ground staring pointedly at you.

Just so it doesn't have a pointed stick.

Or a banana.

[Fairportfan]

A flaming 10' barbed enema.

Hopefully this is just another case of instinctually finding a targets worst fear and giving it to them http://wapsisquare.com/comic/land-sakes/. It would probably indicate some severe problems in her own personality if she came up with something this nasty on her own.

Hmmm.

Could the tar be Georgette's own fear of intimacy (physical or otherwise)?

[Wdot]

One thing I've learned from reading this comic is that nothing is ever simple. Paul weaves a complex story and when characters take actions, those actions cascade throughout the storyline. This is going to have consequences, perhaps negative, I mean how is this going to affect the host?! It could change her personality completely, or render her catatonic not to mention how this act will change Monica for good or ill.

[Fairportfan]

As her swordfighting instructor told Segnbora, whenever you strike and kill another in anger, a little bit of you goes through the Door into death along with them... a part of you which cares and feels. Do it often enough, and all that is left of you is a killing machine. "See how easily your anger took control of you?"

"What should I feel, then, if I must kill?"

"Sorrow. Grief. What else... when you're killing someone who is a part of yourself?"

One restless sleep shift, Miles Vorkosigan reflects that it would be bad enough if the enemies you'd killed just showed up to escort you to Hell when it's your turn.

So why do his have to hang around and make sarcastic comments?

[jwhouk]

"Covey Space" is Jet's version of "Shelly's Basement".

The difference is Shelly's basement had a door in it.

Oh, and we have seen Monica's C-Space before... We Will Break Her

EDIT: As for Monica... I'm getting this feeling that M is, in fact, bluffing. She wants to kill Tar, but isn't sure she can - but she does know she has that "worst fear" thing going for her.

Of course, if it's something "human built", it's also likely terminal in nature (as in, it ain't livin' forever, kiddies). The "thorn" idea may actually be Tar's worst nightmare.

If that kills it, the blood (or tar, I guess) isn't on her own hands.