Return the Favor 2013-09-27

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Julie
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Julie » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:18 am

Today's page kind of reminds me of the quip my friends used to use when they were seriously annoyed about something. "Fuck you in the ass....with a cactus." :?

Also, kind of neat to learn that Astral Fire doesn't hurt demons. :)
Bathorys Daughter wrote:And Monica becomes Phix. The worst part of Phix. Judge, jury, executioner. No trial. No opportunity for the condemned to present a defense. Even taking delight in twisting the knife. This isn't justice. This is vengeance. Torture added to the mix. Monica has officially become a killer. A sadistic killer at that. She has crossed the line all the other "monsters" have crossed to become a monster herself. Things can never be the same.

Hopefully next week will bring clarification as to what Tar was and why it existed.
I can see where you're coming from with this; however, you have to remember where Monica is coming from. While "murder" is not appropriate or civil behavior, she's not thinking about what's appropriate or civil right now. She's dealing with something that invoked her rage...and if I'm not mistaken, the emotional reaction component of human behavior is part of the reason why there are different classifications of "killing another human" in the legal setting. What will truly determine if she's a monster is how she reacts in the aftermath of this situation. (Though honestly, I don't know that there could be a legitimate defense for this "condemned" creature's actions...I just think that it would have been worthwhile to determine where the Tar came from in the first place so there would be a better shot at preventing something similar in the future.)

Also, we've already seen that M feels exceptional remose when her anger provokes a reaction from her JG/Phoenix abilities. While the fact that she feels remorse doesn't make it "okay" for her to lash out with powers that could kill, it does make her less vile of a person. She just needs to be trained to control her powers much like Shelly was (assuming Shelly has completed her training).
Yamara wrote:Raping a rapist creates another rapist. Problem perpetuates.
Celos wrote:The sad fact is that Monica now is a rapist and a torturer.
I don't know that I'd call "stabbing someone with a thorny something-or-other" rape. Yes, it's penetration against Tar's will, but it's definitely more of a stab than a rape. Maybe that's just me though...
Dave wrote:Most everybody seems to accept that Monica is doing exactly as she says... that she has unleashed her astral fire in a way intended to kill Tar in agony, and that this death is truly unavoidable.

May well be true (and would be quite consistent with Monica's offended anger and Jaguar Girl rage)... or, Monica might be bluffing or holding back, and trying to wring some other sort of reaction from Tar?
Now that's an interesting line of thought... :) Thanks for suggesting it!
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Fairportfan » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:20 am

DilyV wrote:I don't know for sure if she will actually kill the tar, but I think this is more of a rather harsh way to let the tar know who's in charge before the real questioning starts. What better way to let the demon-space know that there's a new sheriff in town?
Yep.

You have to establish who's dominant in that kind of exchange, and this is the demon realm, where Monica's greeting was a rape.

Waybackwhen, there was a character in Pogo* whose M.O. was to run right up and kick you in the knee as soon as you met; that way, he knew exactly what his future basis for interaction with you was.

According to Kelly, he was inspired by a hunting guide (possibly/probably apocryphal, i suspect) he'd heard about.

Except that where he kicked people was about a foot or so higher and somewhat to the left of that.

==================

* Injun Charlie.

And there's a name that packed a lot of implications, especially in context (he was Simple J Malarkey's sidekick).
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Fairportfan » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:36 am

Wdot wrote:One thing I've learned from reading this comic is that nothing is ever simple. Paul weaves a complex story and when characters take actions, those actions cascade throughout the storyline. This is going to have consequences, perhaps negative, I mean how is this going to affect the host?! It could change her personality completely, or render her catatonic not to mention how this act will change Monica for good or ill.
I'm thinking of Blackwing's "Trust me - you'll thank me later, Sunshine."

I don't know if Blackwing can see the future.

I don't know precisely what she meant.

But i do trust her.

She and Nudge have always played straight with Monica. (Even if Nudge's "straight" is strikingly similar to anyone else's "convoluted and twisted beyond belief", and Blackwing's motives are obscure.)

And i do know that Tina/Blackwing read Georgette's aura before putting in the 911 for the Jaguar Girl.
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Peace through superior firepower - ain't nothin' more peaceful than a dead troublemaker.
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Jay-Em » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:46 am

Well, whatever the ideas about what happened to tar, it díd invoke an interesting discussion, illustrating how much each one's idea of "right" can differ. Morals, the hardest thing to define.

Interesting, to say the least.
but, why 42?
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Fairportfan » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:47 am

Julie wrote:Today's page kind of reminds me of the quip my friends used to use when they were seriously annoyed about something. "Fuck you in the ass....with a cactus." :?
Well, this page (from the Pibgorn story i call "The Tragedy of Henmellyn"*) is what immediately came to my mind.

==========

* Brooke calls it something else much less appropriate, and it begins here. .
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Nibster » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:06 am

ChattaStarhawk wrote:
zachariah wrote:Does this imply that Monica's bark is worse than her bite? Or just that Tree's company?
Well, she is branching out.


Drops a year's worth of nuts and acorns into the pun jar.
and here I was going to say "barbed, for Tar's pleasure"...



anyone else feeling thorny when they read this story arc?

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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by ActionKermit » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:09 am

Julie wrote:Today's page kind of reminds me of the quip my friends used to use when they were seriously annoyed about something. "Fuck you in the ass....with a cactus."
Now in glorious technicolor!


I'm not sorry to see the Tar kick it like this, so long as M doesn't unnecessarily draw out its destruction and give it a chance to escape.

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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Haylo » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:54 am

Someone who violently retaliates immediately against a horrible, violent, intentional attack is still usually not dangerous to others under normal circumstances. I wouldn’t be worried about talking with M about any peaceful or even controversial topic, or working with her to, say, properly label specimens on a display according to the notes about them. The Tar, on the other hand, has demonstrated that it attacks for no good reason and without warning. From a standpoint of perfect heavenly purity, they are both imperfect, but there is otherwise a world of difference between them.

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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by dex drako » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:03 am

flawless victory fatality

that looks like it hurts ....

anyway I have to say I think killing the Tar is the only real choice Mon has right now. I agree the horns go a little far for me but this things nature is to rape and dominate everthing it comes into contact with it's highly unlikely there is anyway to reason with it. it's a rabbid animal that has no where else to go seeing there are no Jails for this kind of thing so the only way to protect everything else is to kill it.

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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by TlalocW » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:12 am

There's a lot of talk about whether or not Monica is acting correctly against the tar, and whether she's going to have to have another sit-down with Phix. It seems to me though that the thing that she's doing now is exactly what they were so happy about and praising her for during the whole dumping Nudge into a volcano event (which they obviously goaded her into doing) - mind of a sociopath (picking out the worst fear of something) with the heart of a lion (being brave enough to act on it), etc. Maybe when dealing with more primal creatures - more primal than the group at the library - demons and whatever tar is, this ability is needed to destroy it as their greatest fear would be non-existence instead of a nice bath in lava or public speaking. If anything, instead of chastising Monica, Phix and the group might have to console her after she comes down off her Jaguar Girl high.

Apparently, there are things in the Wapsiverse that are so evil, that they have to be taken care of - like the succubus (the gooey gnu or whatever) in Brandi that was forever imprisoned in a crystal that if it were shattered, the creature would be too and still conscious in each of the shards, magnifying its torture.

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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by kingklash » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:59 am

Of course the Dreaded Friday Cliffhanger does not disappoint, only frustrates.

That's sticking it to 'em, Jaguar Girl!

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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Geezer » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:43 pm

Just some notes on this arc...

That's not a rape - that's a fucking bifurcation.

Monica - "the mind of a sociopath...the heart of a lion" and quicker than a cobra. Bailiff, judge, jury, and executioner.

Guidance - has never seen the like of this.

"Revenge is a dish best served cold." We can see now that there's a hot side to this as well.

In the final analysis, what is the proper response to human evil? Is it to isolate it, and then let it sit and stew in its isolation? Or is it to END the pain, to terminate the evil? There are times, I submit, when only execution is appropriate. I for one am not troubled by the (imminent) demise of the Tar in this instance. We will learn more next week, and that's fine.
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by jwhouk » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:13 pm

dex drako wrote: anyway I have to say I think killing the Tar is the only real choice Mon has right now. I agree the thorns go a little far for me but this things nature is to rape and dominate everything it comes into contact with it's highly unlikely there is anyway to reason with it. It's a rabid animal that has no where else to go seeing there are no Jails for this kind of thing so the only way to protect everything else is to kill it.
Exactly - you don't reason with a rabid dog. You put it down.
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Prester Fred » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:19 pm

Jay-Em wrote:Interesting, to say the least.
I'd have said...intriguing.

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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by KnightDelight » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:30 pm

Jay-Em wrote:We are not talking Monica executing a whole coven of inner-demons, but more like her cutting away a malignent tumor. Tumors do not get trials. Tar. Is. Not. A. Person. It's the embodiement of something that entered Jet uninvited, like a rapist, and repeated that with Monica -or tried to-. I (personally!) do not see the problem here.
Tumors are just a mass of flesh. Tar, by all appearances, seems to be a thinking, self-aware being, capable of communication. Tumors, as far as we know, don't feel pain. Tar certainly does. The analogy isn't quite appropriate. It may be the only form of communication it knows is sex. For it, sex, forced or otherwise, is normal. Just as killing and eating each other is normal to sphinxes. Basically, we don't know anything about Tar's motives or origin.
Jay-Em wrote: Even moreso. This whole "Demon-Realm"is (to me) more like -i don't know how to express it in English_ "figurative"? It's drawn and shown to be experienced by the protagonists as something real&tangible, even though it's not. The whole Wapsiverse "demon"-thing is a parable?
Not really. The demon realm IS real and tangible as are it's residents. They are not just concepts, and have been around as such for much, much longer than our universe has existed, let alone the human race. It is solid enough for Maya to have been there, physically, for tens of thousands of years. Tangible enough for Bud to have gone in to get her and the demons real enough for the both of them to be fleeing a group of them as they exited.
Jay-Em wrote:In short: Monica did not kill Jet to get at the tar. Contrary to the sphinxes' modus operandi.
Yes, but it appears she has tortured and killed a living being of some sort. And not just an animal. Also this is a Human Matter and her actions should be judged on a human scale with human morays in play. Just as a sphinx's actions should be judged on a sphinx level; a demon's actions judged on a demon level, etc.
Jay-Em wrote:What's also interesting to think about for a bit: Now Monica has experienced the real&primitive visceral way Jaguar-Girl functions, she will understand Phix much, múch better. Something that was not exactly so when Phix had her moments of Bloodlust. She and Phix will become múch closer I think.
Probably so, but not, I think, in a way Phix would approve. Even Phix did not choose to torture her prey as she killed her.
Jay-Em wrote:What's of more interest to me is hów this tumor got into Jet. Is it an "elder evil"? a fallen God? A paranormal deviant? Whát is it, and where did it come from.
Yes, those are the questions yet to be answered here. Hopefully the answers will put some of my speculation about Monica's journey into the dark side to rest.
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Timotheus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:33 pm

Huh. Despite my earlier halfhearted attempt to reference "Song of the South", I wonder if the thorny branch might in fact be related to the "Briar Patch" or bramble bush that Br'er Rabbit is tossed into. Once in the Briar Patch, or mass of thorn bushes, Br'er Rabbit uses the thorny stems and branches to scrap and comb out the tar from the Tar Baby from his fur and paws.
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by shadowinthelight » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:37 pm

Raping a human rapist is wrong because (at least we're told) even the worst of people still have some good in them. The tar appears to be a manifestation of evil itself. If so, it has no redeeming qualities, contains nothing that deserves any pity or compassion. I don't think the rabid dog analogy is apt because a dog would have had a life before losing control. I liken the tar more to a robot built for the sole purpose of killing. Sci-fi has shown us when faced with such a piece of technology the only thing to do is throw everything you have at it to make sure it doesn't come back for more.
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by NOTDilbert » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:57 pm

GUMBY!! NOOOOO!!!
How could you have done this!?
My childhood is ruined....
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Yamara » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:01 pm

Geezer wrote:That's not a rape - that's a fucking bifurcation.
It's impalement, with rape directly referenced by M.

Vlad Tepesh is a military hero in his native Romania, for good reason. His reputation among other Christians and Turks has been rather different...

Impalement as a warning to invaders or criminals is one thing. But who benefits from this demonstration?
shadowinthelight wrote:The tar appears to be a manifestation of evil itself. If so, it has no redeeming qualities, contains nothing that deserves any pity or compassion. ... I liken the tar more to a robot built for the sole purpose of killing.
DilyV wrote:I don't believe that Monica is doing this to get pleasure out of it... nor do I believe that Monica feels satisfaction/justification for having done it, regardless of the fact she's been violated. This is a punishment, pure and simple for the tar, to teach it humility if anything else... in a kind of 'how does it feel' way. I don't know for sure if she will actually kill the tar ...
Well...
Monica wrote:Isn't violence counterproductive to the learning process?! How would I learn anything from you if you kill me because I...
I doubt The Tar needs any instruction in violence. Or in humility, seconds before the painful death promised by its destroyer. So who is this "favor" really for.
Monica wrote:I will not have you label me "evil"! Everyone has shades of gray, and everyone has dark thoughts! One's actions are what's important!
Monica's emotions here are perfectly understandable. But as a subTitan, her actions are going define her, inside and out, for a very very very long time.

Fairportfan wrote:I'm thinking of Blackwing's "Trust me - you'll thank me later, Sunshine."

I don't know if Blackwing can see the future.

I don't know precisely what she meant.

But i do trust her.
...Yes. You're right. One would have to cynically believe that Blackwing has an alien or evil intent to put Monica into this, and allow something in C-space to--

Hunh.

Demons... the future.....



hoho ho. That would be a twist.



Dang. Oughtta be used to this by now, but... this whole arc could be something almost entirely other than what it appears.



Gonna go back to tearing up my kitchen now.
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Re: Return the Favor 2013-09-27

Post by Sidhekin » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:23 pm

shadowinthelight wrote:The tar appears to be a manifestation of evil itself.
Where do you get that?

(Wishful thinking?)
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'

The Sidhekin proves that Sidhe did it!

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