She Said No 2013-09-13

[Dave]

I felt very VERY shitty doing this comic, there is a reason, though.

'Tis reassuring to hear that, Paul, for several different reasons

Thanks for leading us to think, and giving us the opportunity to look at some really gnarly issues here.

[MerchManDan]

It never ceases to amaze me how upset people get when something with bad sexual overtones comes up, yet let gore and death, graphic and otherwise, slide right on by.

The past few instances of gore and/or death were certainly not allowed to "slide by" in this forum, parody strips notwithstanding. As I recall, the anti-violence uproar was quite noticeable.

I'm not at all sure what this goo is... but it reminded me of the alien black goo from the X files. I get the feeling that this is the toxic, raw emotion that Jet lives with within herself on a daily basis...

Kind of like Armus from ST:TNG. This makes sense.

Oh, no! Monica is going to turn into Venom!

Done and done.

[Jabberwonky]

We're seeing repeated incidents of what I can only describe as a mental sexual predator facing no repercussions

Yet. "No repercussions YET." People always leave out that part; I don't know why, it's very important.

Hear, hear! I second the representative from somewhere else! It's only been moments from the initial incident...

I have...unreconciled, I guess...emotions over this strip. Yeah, it's a shitty hand M's being dealt, but life does that sometimes. My sister was the victim of a date rape. Long story short, because she consented to sex and he forced acts on her that she didn't consent to, there were no legal legs to stand on. She still sees a councilor or somewhat over that. Shortly after it was 'resolved' he tried to come by our house to apologize. And on seeing me come out of the house, my expression made him squeal the tires to get on down the road. (It was suggested that I seek some counseling after the incident, I asked for ten minutes alone with him.)
With all that, and the emotions that dredges up, I don't have a problem with it here. It's fiction. And the author has expressed 'shitty' feelings for doing that to his characters. I understand that, being a bad writer, it can make you feel like shit to bad things to them. But I trust Paul enough to have good reasons for doing it. And I commend him for wading through the shit to do it.

This is your badness level. It's unusually high for someone your size. We have to fix that.

Also no one else thought of this one?
Tina's sucking up the 'bad' from M...Similar looking substances, similar emotions?

[Jay-Em]

I felt very VERY shitty doing this comic, there is a reason, though.

..as You should.

No, wait, that sounds more harsh than intended (damn language-barrier) .

There is no doubt in my mind that there's a waaaaay more important layer here. "Gratuitous" violence has never, ever been part of Wapsisquare. Cheesecake? Oh yes, Slapstick? Absolutely, stuff blowing up in glorious ways? Oh, yess!

But, whenever violence was involved You have consistently portrayed it as something nasty, something stomach-churning. A part of the human animal that hasn't got any redeeming value( except for setting demon's asses on fire)There's a reason that veterans, more often than not, become quite ardent peace-nics.

Violence, the urge to overpower is part of our make-up. However, The worth of humanity, contrast to, say, the animal kingdom, is our conscious ability to surpress those urges.

Running "on instinct" is far easier than in a conscious manner stating:" no. I will not act on my urges (demons) i refuse to answer violence with even more violence. It's the hardest stance someone can take. It's a lesson he Jesus-character (if he existed or not...but that's another discussion better left out) tries to teach when stating "turn the other cheek"

The thing that intrigues (and frankly fills me with trepidation) me the most here, is this : Will Monica lash-out in anger, full jaguar-girl, or not. That will be quite crucial. Will there be "revenge" or not.

This is a bit hard for me to explain, but that is something that worries me. I don't want to go all politics, but there's a rather distinct difference between us "old country" folk in (mainland!) Europe -in it's current incarnation, mind You- and the USA. The USA has very often used it's might in full to try and cull extreme violence, and thusly used violence to stop violence allover the globe. With the added bonus of a lesser risk that the mentioned violence hit their coasts. Violence as a solution, is more an accepted part of the American psyche -and society- than the European. I take óne peek at the little texts people put under comments, and that becomes abundantly clear.

Europe, on the other hand, has been engulfed in flames twíce the last century, and thanx to Yugoslavia, almost for a third time. Europeans are thusly véry wary of violent solutions. Not because we are inherently more peaceful, but because we have experienced the results of escalation, and stíll find mines in our seas, and bombs in our soil.

Please do not see this as some partisan attack, or something, but afa violence goes, Europe has a distinctly different view on violence as a tool to "punish" or "taking revenge" (No death-penalty, as the clearest example). Yet, that doesn't mean we are less inclined to lash-out in anger and violence, but we are more inclined to take a few breaths before using violent take-overs -so to speak- to fix an escalating situation becáuse it has escalated in a major way, twíce, and we had to call on the USA to keep our quarreling nations from obliterating each other.

My little diatribe is a mess, I know. And I bèt that which I feared, will be happening : Angry Americans stumbling allover my musings. So be it.

A better way of showing the differences in mentality between Europe and the US is given by Jeremy Rifkin in his exellent "The European Dream"

The above looks like some Macro example, but on a smaller scale the same works.

Someone mentioned Marvel. Well, Marvel comics show violence in a way more palatable way than You do. Marvel -despite their habit of trying to put a message down- dóes glorify might&violence. You don't, and quite decisively so.


Dammit! I júst cannot find the words for what I am trying to say... That's frustrating... Maybe this : there's a difference in mentality between Europeans and Americans, and I am afraid that, despite the obvious messages of WS, there will be yet, another violent solution.

Ugh! No! Stíll a mess, my comment.. *sigh* I give up... Brain's all mushy now...

[Jay-Em]

I said it earlier... Mr. Taylor has always had a reason for the disturbing things he's drawn into the strip. I cried when Shelly died in the time forest of Plutonium poisoning.

Yup. The reason I ordered a print and framed it. It is a powerful reminder of the vulnerability and fleeting character of our existence.

[jwhouk]

Dang. You know a strip affects you when people write half-page diatribes about it.

I still say that the Demon Shepherd just met up with two of Georgette's demons - Lust and (for the lack of a better description) Exploitation.

[Yamara]

Very sorry to hear of your family's troubles, Jabber.

Civilization has been pretty successful in corralling most of the violence people do through law and enforcement. It's human herding, always has been, but now we can have stuff like farms and playgrounds and libraries as places that can last for more than a few minutes.

Somehow the law has worked well in punishing murderers and thieves, but it has been a massive fail, in courts and LE, in punishing rape. It's like it's bizarro world. Communities tend to defend perps, courts are designed to malign the character of the victim (as accuser), and police have low morale to pursue these cases (to put it generously) in the face of all this constant fail.

So it falls back to the family, as in Jabber's case. And that is the foundation of most cultures, certainly Western Civilization, as shown in the Odyssey. The Odyssey shows clearly that if you fuck with someone's family, they're justified to lock you in a room and butcher you.

The rest of human law has evolved since the Bronze Age. A growing number of people are realizing how relentless the fail on rape is, and in it its wake, are sick and furious that so many many of their families have to go it alone.

Civilization wants to resolve why this is.

Art is one method to attempt this.

There's a reason why this looks disturbing: we're too used to how demons look nowadays.

Remember when they were first introduced... (starting with that comic)

And This is where I fell in love with Monica.

Yes, PW will take us to the edge, but has always had a reason to go there -- and not just the view. As DillyV pointed out, these are significant plot elements, not irrelevant gore or fan service.

Actually I would rather have thought THIS: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/01242005/ is where you fell in love with Monica... I laughed so hard at this one...

For me, it was her handling the agony of those under her care.

Monica has witnessed violent rape, through her one Command to Bud. And her response, ultimately, was to fight to end its repercussions. She starts by giving her girls the responsibility of being free.

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/notevilneverwere/
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/donttreatmelikeavictim/

Rejecting unearned wishes, and setting the jinn free. Still seemingly naive, but proving she has neutron stars for gonads.

Even though we've learned since that all three golem girls have long enjoyed a range of autonomy, the notice that their emancipation was complete and final on Monica's watch? That's a heroism we can all aspire towards.




So that is why this story, this arc, is on our minds. We have been led to feel. Monica is a fictional character, but she is no gratuitous image, because we know her story as deeply as we would any friend who was as close as family. Doesn't matter that we know she's become strong enough to handle a room packed full of fuckers, all by herself.

Justice must prevail everywhere.




(And I got some thoughts on destroying a person's autonomy I wrote on the iPad on Friday. May or may not post those later.)

[jwhouk]

One more note before I head out the door on what's likely gonna be one of the last really nice Saturdays that I have off for a while:

In looking back to 2005, at the storyline where Doubt (sheesh, remember when we called her "acinoM"?) was introduced, I have to believe that was where the tone of Wapsi Square took the turn towards the darker, edgier side we have today. Yes, the Golem Girls were already part of the storyline, but when this little incident happened, two things resulted: Monica stopped being the naive little girl and started taking control of her life - by facing the "supernatural" aspect of it head-on.

[DilyV]

I said it earlier... Mr. Taylor has always had a reason for the disturbing things he's drawn into the strip. I cried when Shelly died in the time forest of Plutonium poisoning.

Yup. The reason I ordered a print and framed it. It is a powerful reminder of the vulnerability and fleeting character of our existence.

I know, right?

When I read that strip, I was in the process of reading a book called Idaho Falls, about the SL-1 reactor accident at the Nuclear Reactor Testing Station in Idaho back in the 60s. Three men killed, dozens contaminated... Reading that strip while reading that book was just chilling... and having been in the Military, I'm quite aware of the dangers of nuclear radiation. I cried for Shelly... retrieving an item that she didn't know would kill her and pleading for her life as her body failed her... *shudders*

Granted, Friday's strip was disturbing... but it is a disturbing world we live in. They say life imitates art... I say it's fair that Art should accurately show the human condition. Just because we close our eyes to horrible things doesn't mean they don't still happen. I'd rather know the truth than to be fed lies and have sunshine and lollipops blown up my ass.

[KnightDelight]

In looking back to 2005, at the storyline where Doubt (sheesh, remember when we called her "acinoM"?) was introduced, I have to believe that was where the tone of Wapsi Square took the turn towards the darker, edgier side we have today. Yes, the Golem Girls were already part of the storyline, but when this little incident happened, two things resulted: Monica stopped being the naive little girl and started taking control of her life - by facing the "supernatural" aspect of it head-on.

This is true and I think it was this comic which was THE turning point: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/betterprotection/. The turning point towards showing horrific violence. It was only later on when it took yet another turn towards bloody graphic violence. There was a large gap between the Better Protection comic and the She-Sphinx Tartar episode, but, to me, that's the official starting point. Now we have a turning point towards sexual violence, but still milder than actual depictions of being beaten and brutally raped.

Frankly I can't quite see the why all the uproar from the fans because Monica's being violated by some ooze. Yes, it seems to represent rape of some strange kind, but it's not like Paul is showing Monica being beaten bloody by Georgette and restrained while she rams some object into her. And it's a far cry from showing heads and bodies exploding or faces being clawed/eaten off. I really can't understand getting quite so upset about this comic.

[as363]

Totally agree with Paul's comment.

That makes me think of the Air Force motto "Per Ardua Ad Astra" (Through difficulty to the Stars) . I think that is what Paul is doing here - ya gotta go through rough spots to get the finish that is the most satisfying . Same as with faceting a diamond - the good stuff is inside and ya have to chip away and grind to get to it.

Edited one time

[illiad]

remember, its a DREAM... what would the interpretation of it be??

[Jabberwonky]

remember, its a DREAM... what would the interpretation of it be??

Deep seated fear of chocolate syrup?

[scantrontb]

remember, its a DREAM... what would the interpretation of it be??

Deep seated fear of chocolate syrup?

i dunno... that doesn't look like FEAR, it looks like M has the Hots for some hot fudge sundaes... it's the OTHER person that doesn't like the chocolate syrup... though it IS ambiguous as to who the other voice is talking about / to: are they looking for Monica, and finding the ooze on top of M, and the voice is telling the ooze to get away from her because she already said no, earlier (when exactly is "earlier" as well)... OR, is the voice looking for Monica and finding her covered in the ooze and yelling at MONICA to get off of who the ooze is representing? assuming that it is supposed to be Jet? but then who is the voice supposed to be? Stay tuned next week on... Only The (Tina's) Shadow Knows...


i know I'm messing up that tag-line i just couldn't think of a good way to say it like they did way back when...

[DilyV]

remember, its a DREAM... what would the interpretation of it be??

Deep seated fear of chocolate syrup?

i dunno... that doesn't look like FEAR, it looks like M has the Hots for some hot fudge sundaes... it's the OTHER person that doesn't like the chocolate syrup... though it IS ambiguous as to who the other voice is talking about / to: are they looking for Monica, and finding the ooze on top of M, and the voice is telling the ooze to get away from her because she already said no, earlier (when exactly is "earlier" as well)... OR, is the voice looking for Monica and finding her covered in the ooze and yelling at MONICA to get off of who the ooze is representing? assuming that it is supposed to be Jet? but then who is the voice supposed to be? Stay tuned next week on... Only The (Tina's) Shadow Knows...


i know I'm messing up that tag-line i just couldn't think of a good way to say it like they did way back when...

Let's try this...

"Who knows what evil lurks in Georgette's slime.... Tina's Shadow knows!!!!"

[illiad]

hurumph... well since most seem to be in drinking not serious mode, I thought I would ask google....

people melting - Does it fit how Monica witnessed the suffering that Bud went through ??

Islam has a different view on dreams of the body... "relief for someone who is experiencing hardship, pressure, or sorrow."

my next moan is Americans in general didn't like to talk about 'female issues' until a famous show got there, so 'hijacked' the word..
Would you say 'lips' when you actually mean 'throat' ?? why so difficult to use slang, or the proper word?

I am just about old enough to remember when 'gay' **just** meant 'happy' :/

[Yamara]

Would you say 'lips' when you actually mean 'throat' ?? why so difficult to use slang, or the proper word?

What Jay-Em said about the different attitudes across the pond: Americans traditionally shun the subject. Prudery can backfire in language, too. In England "music hall" was called in America "vaudeville", but in England "vaudeville" was a word for much more risque entertainment. So when an American would tell an Englishman he took his kid to vaudeville, monocles would fall.

On the other hand, critical elements of sexual anatomy have only been discovered in the last ten years (structure of the clitoris, erection architecture) so the Puritans can't take all the blame for incuriosity.

As long as Monica is her own doorway, it doesn't matter what language is used.



So speculating about the entity attacking M, my guess is it's a Lust demon engorged on the attention Georgette's presence gathers in the minds of so many people. It may even be Monica's own demon of Lust, pictured here as Monica mentions sending them off on missions, sometimes for years. Maybe Doubt was such a taskmaster, Lust decided occupying 'Jet was more fun. Just as Doubt brought back knowledge of Jin's life to Monica, so now Lust returns, pouring the monstrous distillation of the fashion-industrial complex into her primary host.

Another possibility, and I think others have pointed this out, is that 'Jet is a lost member of the Wapsi-Doo gang: If her plane crash was simultaneous with the other sacrifices, then her demons have been in the mix all along, running about those soul-corridors while they were open and connected. I've long wondered why M's demons are all so much taller than M; Tsillah picked up on them looking like supermodels, to Doubt's delight. Maybe they originally belonged to 'Jet, and 'Jet has been bearing Monica's original set since the sacrifices.

I wonder what they'd be like.

[scantrontb]

I've long wondered why M's demons are all so much taller than M; Tsillah picked up on them looking like supermodels, to Doubt's delight.

are you sure about that? i thought that it was Suzie and Lily when they first met Tsillah... one of them asked her "where'd the creepy supermodel go?" and that's when Tsillah explained that she was the shadow.... correct my if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the only time Tsillah has ever even SEEN Monica's Demons, let alone saying that they looked like supermodel, was the arc where the vampires met Tsillah, and I don't recall T saying anything about M's demons looking that way back then, just that she had heard that Monica gets all dark and scary when she works...

[Yamara]

I've long wondered why M's demons are all so much taller than M; Tsillah picked up on them looking like supermodels, to Doubt's delight.

are you sure about that? i thought that it was Suzie and Lily when they first met Tsillah... one of them asked her "where'd the creepy supermodel go?" and that's when Tsillah explained that she was the shadow.... correct my if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the only time Tsillah has ever even SEEN Monica's Demons, let alone saying that they looked like supermodel, was the arc where the vampires met Tsillah, and I don't recall T saying anything about M's demons looking that way back then, just that she had heard that Monica gets all dark and scary when she works...

Right. Except Tsillah tries on the supermodel bod before going out to meet the vampires: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/guard-dogs/

And Tsillah uses fashion industry-speak to introduce herself to Monica: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/assigned-to-you/

Which ultimately made Doubt a very happy... camper: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/your-liason/

Whatever Tsillah brought to work that day, it was better than pizza. But in any case, it's all really just the usual Sunday guesses here on Wapsi Square Forum.



PunPal has charged me a dozen low-carb cronut s'mores.

[illiad]

thanks for that, Yamara! thing is, being Scottish, with many European friends, I have not been so limited... I have found the southern English quite prudish too... its only when you get around Luton, that they start to 'relax' a bit... :/

I have heard that many words were used to 'cover up' the usual male activities, basically *any* large male club, while they pretend that it 'just did not happen, we are decent folk'

Just getting a condom involved many code words, embarrassed glances, etc... thank {diety } for HIV, now we can buy one with pride...

It will soon be the morrow, when hopefully questions will be answered!!