A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

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KnightDelight
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by KnightDelight » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:48 pm

This thing about Charon and souls is a bit disturbing. Makes me wonder about this collection of souls Charon does. Is it a literal collection and not just the ferrying of them somewhere? He gets really upset when they don't go through him. Why?

I think Jin made allusion to a soul in this one: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/inside-a-clay-do/ She seems to be talking about the essence of the individual, the soul. OTOH, does a copy know it's a copy and not the original? I think it would not be able to tell the difference, whereas the original would know it was the original. To me it works out like this. If someone made an exact copy of you, down to the atom, it would still be a copy and not another you. No one else could tell the difference, but you would know. If you died then, you would not "wake up" in the copy. Whereas if your brain were moved to the body of the copy, you would wake up in the copy's body. So whatever carries the essence of the person is in the brain, but also more than just the brain's data. After all, if you copied just the data from your brain (perfectly) to the copy you would not wake up in the copy if you died right after the copy process. So the essence of the person, the soul, resides in the brain but is more than just the data in it.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Timotheus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:55 pm

(Gets out the Acme mini umbrella with the Wile E. Coyote print pattern on it.)
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by DilyV » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:04 pm

illiad wrote:
DilyV wrote:I can almost Predict tomorrows one cell strip...

Kath, large and in charge, fists balled up, arms rigid by her side, bent slightly at the waist as she leans towards Bud and Tsillah, screaming at the top of her lungs, sending Bud and Tsillah tumbling...

WHERE THE FUCK IS ATSALI!!!!????
erm, if you haven't been following the strips, she is at the orphanage....

first panel..

lets hope not too much 'strip time' is taken up by finding out where it is.... :\
No, no, no... you misinterpret... I think Kath knows she's back at the orphanage... the question is rhetorical really... She knows about the orphanage, but not necessarily why she was sent away. Kinda like Luke when R2 cuts off Leia's message to Obi Wan... "Wait a minute, where'd she go? Play back the entire message!" He knows where the message is stored, just not why R2 ended the message.

Kath knows Atsali likely went back to the orphanage, just not so much why. Her question "WHERE IS ATSALI? is more like "Why haven't you brought her back yet?"
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by DilyV » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:09 pm

The issue I'm getting at here is that Kath is asking one question... over and over again and no one is answering her, but dancing around everything else. Once succinct question... "Where is Atsali?" How hard could that be to answer? A lot easier than Kath keeping control of her temper at this point I bet!!!
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Yamara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:32 pm

jwhouk wrote:You're missing the obvious shock reply - one that would drive us all batty if she said it in response to Kath's inevitable question...

Kath: "Where's ATSALI?"
Tsillah: "YOU'RE TALKING TO HER!"
Kath: "....What?"
Tsillah: "It was ME. All that time. Or, at least, my shadow."
That... is... a very dark possibility.

Except. Tsillah doesn't have a corporeal body. Which would probably be necessary to download the Mapimi computer data.


Mind you, releasing the Etheitians from the crystals would be entirely within the scope of the family business. But I think she'd need hardware to transfer the info. I suppose her true form could act as a literal "cloud" if Paul sez-so.


She'd also have to be deliberately slapping at Kath's heartstrings like it was a ukelele, to play a fictional orphan like that. Not out of character, either, though, considering her participation in Monica's coming-of-age.

EDIT: Actually, I don't think we've seen Tsillah carry any object she couldn't have invented as part of her shadow. So carrying Kath and flying helicopters might rule this out.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Sidhekin » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:01 pm

Yamara wrote:She'd also have to be deliberately slapping at Kath's heartstrings like it was a ukelele, to play a fictional orphan like that. Not out of character, either, though, considering her participation in Monica's coming-of-age.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by GuySmiley » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:51 pm

DilyV wrote:
illiad wrote:
DilyV wrote:I can almost Predict tomorrows one cell strip...

Kath, large and in charge, fists balled up, arms rigid by her side, bent slightly at the waist as she leans towards Bud and Tsillah, screaming at the top of her lungs, sending Bud and Tsillah tumbling...

WHERE THE FUCK IS ATSALI!!!!????
erm, if you haven't been following the strips, she is at the orphanage....

first panel..

lets hope not too much 'strip time' is taken up by finding out where it is.... :\
No, no, no... you misinterpret... I think Kath knows she's back at the orphanage... the question is rhetorical really... She knows about the orphanage, but not necessarily why she was sent away. Kinda like Luke when R2 cuts off Leia's message to Obi Wan... "Wait a minute, where'd she go? Play back the entire message!" He knows where the message is stored, just not why R2 ended the message.

Kath knows Atsali likely went back to the orphanage, just not so much why. Her question "WHERE IS ATSALI? is more like "Why haven't you brought her back yet?"
I'm thinking Kath's anger is getting out of control with the way she's just repeating the same question louder and louder even though she knows the answer. I wouldn't imagine that Atsali is in any danger at the orphanage (which I'm trying very hard not to call the orphanarium :lol: ) and I don't think Kath could do anything right this minute even if she did get the address of it. I think someone needs to show up and talk her down. Bud's probably not a good candidate and given the circumstances I don't think Brandi is right now either so I vote for Phix. She's bound to be annoyed with the noise level by this point. Kath needs to be told to calm down, get some food and some sleep and then start planning a jailbreak. ;)

And while we're on the subject if angry Katherine, any chance this current level of anger could constitute a symptom of PTSD?
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Mark N » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:38 pm

KnightDelight wrote:
I think Jin made allusion to a soul in this one: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/inside-a-clay-do/ She seems to be talking about the essence of the individual, the soul. OTOH, does a copy know it's a copy and not the original? I think it would not be able to tell the difference, whereas the original would know it was the original. To me it works out like this. If someone made an exact copy of you, down to the atom, it would still be a copy and not another you. No one else could tell the difference, but you would know. If you died then, you would not "wake up" in the copy. Whereas if your brain were moved to the body of the copy, you would wake up in the copy's body. So whatever carries the essence of the person is in the brain, but also more than just the brain's data. After all, if you copied just the data from your brain (perfectly) to the copy you would not wake up in the copy if you died right after the copy process. So the essence of the person, the soul, resides in the brain but is more than just the data in it.
I have wondered about the need of the priests to torture and terrorize the girls if the soul was not a point in the creation. I think that the process of burning the girls alive was a way to keep the soul trapped in the ashes until the mixture can be reanimated. In that case the souls are their own, damage and all. The lack of aura may just be a part of not being an actual biological being.
Last edited by Mark N on Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Wdot » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:39 pm

kingklash wrote:
Wdot wrote: edit out for space
You're talking about the Well of All Sparks, aren't you?
Uh, no, sorry. :oops: I admit I had to look up "Well of All Sparks." Transformers was after my time. Now if you were quoting The Herculoids or Space Ghost I might have gotten it without looking it up.( Or Electrowoman and Dyna Girl, and/or Isis and Shazam!)
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Yamara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:27 pm

Mark N wrote:I have wondered about the need of the priests to torture and terrorize the girls if the soul was not a point in the creation. I think that the process of burning the girls alive was a way to keep the soul trapped in the ashes until the mixture can be reanimated. In that case the souls are their own, damage and all. The lack of aura may just be a part of not being an actual biological being.
Timotheus wrote:It was stated fairly early on that the Golem Girls didn't have souls.


Specifically implied here: http://wapsisquare.com/comic/backintothestoneage/

Note that it's Jin speaking in front of Monica, which lends an underscoring of truth to the statement. But. Jin is not speaking of herself.
Timotheus wrote:That they were lost in the process and that there was a "Hole" inside their personality as a result. That was part of the situation that caused Tina to sound the alarm when she noticed that Jin had the soul of an angry child in her that was causing her instability. This problem was never brought up again and the actual solution to Jin's mental instability didn't involve any ghostly hitch hikers, so that aspect remains unexplored.


Actually, Jin is shown as very susceptible to demons. Which strongly implies she has something demons can attach to, like a soul. So whichever Tina-entity is correcting itself at http://wapsisquare.com/comic/quite-obvious/ seems to be taking note of that. But it shouldn't be surprising that a pre-Chimera element remained inside Jin, as her bonding to the Calendar Machine took place before the Pit.


We have recently learned that Brandi is hosting a nu gui, a damaged soul (or a byproduct of same). This creature had to have been hiding from Tina's sharp gaze as well, though Brandi spent far less time at Mucho Mocha, or even out partying with the rest. Bud said that demons were terrified of Brandi, so they seemed to know that there was no purchase to be had there.


So that leaves Bud.

It's all there at the Calendar Ritual. The Rogue Demon Queen is explicit: "Bud! You're the soulless one behind this whole thing!"

To keep the Calendar looping, they had hooks into Monica and Jin, monitoring their every move. The Chessmaster was untouchable, but smoothly made herself look to be playing along. Shelly was warded by Creepy, and had to be physically knocked aside.

And that leaves Bud, the unreadable one. She plays the game her way. No soul in there.



So Charon must have taken it. Why are Titans so interested in these things?
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by davids4250 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:32 pm

I think Kath is justifiably angry, 1. For her partner being sent away, and 2 for being ignored when she expresses concern for her partner. I think she will continue to be angry until Atsali is with her.

As for souls, I have had no doubt from the beginning that the GG have souls. If not, they would not be able to express the compassion and caring that they all have shown at one time or another. Of the three, I think Bud is the most human, even if she does refer to herself as a machine.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Yamara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:57 pm

Here's a bit from the wiki page on Souls I'm fussing with offline:

"Etheitian stargates have the capacity to transfer living beings across vast distances. Souls are transferred whole in the process, which avoids some of the issues raised in science fiction as to whether such transfers are merely copying and printing physical forms, while destroying their originals. This however opens their operation to abuse as souls in transfer can be rerouted into storage containers such as crystals, instead of a free destination."


But don't let that distract anyone from where Charon is yoinking them off to.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Yamara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:40 pm

Jay-Em wrote:Interesting discussion of the "soul" thing.
...
Only by having a "soul", a character can understand and feel the importance of a soul.... Think that one over for a bit. "I think, thus I am"

Think f.i. of religious people. To thèm it's the most important thing in their lives to believe what they believe. To have a discussion with them, I have to imagine their Deity as a real, living entity -otherwise you'll be discussing about nothing, massively complicating things. And at thát moment, the Deity ís real, for me too, despite being an atheïst, if only for duration of the discussion.

A problem that has always stumped philosophers.
You've actually hit upon something that the angrier subset of atheists I prod on political blogs never quite figure out. (Let's see if they track me here. ;) ) Religions don't get their appeal from their gods or their general cosmology.

It's your place in the universe. They sell you on your soul.
Jay-Em wrote:But, then again, I am an artist, academy of the arts educated. To me a piece of art can have a "soul", be it a soul that's put into it by the artist.
So if a work remains locked away, unseen, is it like a soul imprisoned in the isolation of hell? It would seem, then, that a soul is work of many hands, in addition to just the artist and production team. A gallery or media, an audience, a fanbase, a genre of like minds, a critical response, a society to encounter, accept and challenge it.

A place in the universe.


Most noticeable not by its presence, but when that place is abjectly denied.

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/empty-space/
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/out-of-sight/
. . .
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/remember-her-name/
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Dave » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:10 am

davids4250 wrote:As for souls, I have had no doubt from the beginning that the GG have souls. If not, they would not be able to express the compassion and caring that they all have shown at one time or another. Of the three, I think Bud is the most human, even if she does refer to herself as a machine.
That's rather along the lines of my own thinking/feeling, too.

A somewhat similar issue was debated in "The Measure Of A Man" (ST:TNG): "Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by nerf-dweller » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:14 am

Timotheus wrote:It was stated fairly early on that the Golem Girls didn't have souls. That they were lost in the process and that there was a "Hole" inside their personality as a result. That was part of the situation that caused Tina to sound the alarm when she noticed that Jin had the soul of an angry child in her that was causing her instability. This problem was never brought up again and the actual solution to Jin's mental instability didn't involve any ghostly hitch hikers, so that aspect remains unexplored.

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/nicetry/
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/quite-obvious/
Start at:
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/missing-element/
I think it pretty definitive the GGs don't have. The resident soul reader extraordinaire Tina can't read the GGs. Remember Bud first meeting Tina in search of her morning coffee? (Too tire to lok up link.)

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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Dave » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:23 am

nerf-dweller wrote:I think it pretty definitive the GGs don't have. The resident soul reader extraordinaire Tina can't read the GGs. Remember Bud first meeting Tina in search of her morning coffee? (Too tire to lok up link.)
If I recall correctly, Tina sees and interprets auras - which is not necessarily the same thing as reading the presence or absence of a soul. It was pretty clear to Tina that the GGs aren't human (due to their lack of auras), and Tina also referred to Jin as having an "empty core", but I don't see this as definitive proof that the GGs are actually soul-less.

Paul hasn't revealed all that much, yet, about the true nature of the soul in the Wapsiverse. Who knows, he might have a curve-ball or two in store for us some year. ;)

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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Jabberwonky » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:43 am

nerf-dweller wrote:
Timotheus wrote:It was stated fairly early on that the Golem Girls didn't have souls. That they were lost in the process and that there was a "Hole" inside their personality as a result. That was part of the situation that caused Tina to sound the alarm when she noticed that Jin had the soul of an angry child in her that was causing her instability. This problem was never brought up again and the actual solution to Jin's mental instability didn't involve any ghostly hitch hikers, so that aspect remains unexplored.

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/nicetry/
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/quite-obvious/
Start at:
http://wapsisquare.com/comic/missing-element/
I think it pretty definitive the GGs don't have. The resident soul reader extraordinaire Tina can't read the GGs. Remember Bud first meeting Tina in search of her morning coffee? (Too tire to lok up link.)
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Fairportfan » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:36 am

Dave wrote:
davids4250 wrote:As for souls, I have had no doubt from the beginning that the GG have souls. If not, they would not be able to express the compassion and caring that they all have shown at one time or another. Of the three, I think Bud is the most human, even if she does refer to herself as a machine.
That's rather along the lines of my own thinking/feeling, too.
Part of what makes Bud the most human is that she's the most damaged by her experiences as part of the chimera.

Brandi is badly damaged, but by what came before she was golemized.

Jin was apparently kinda flaky from before anything happened to her.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Fairportfan » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:37 am

Dave wrote:
nerf-dweller wrote:I think it pretty definitive the GGs don't have. The resident soul reader extraordinaire Tina can't read the GGs. Remember Bud first meeting Tina in search of her morning coffee? (Too tire to lok up link.)
If I recall correctly, Tina sees and interprets auras - which is not necessarily the same thing as reading the presence or absence of a soul. It was pretty clear to Tina that the GGs aren't human (due to their lack of auras), and Tina also referred to Jin as having an "empty core", but I don't see this as definitive proof that the GGs are actually soul-less.

Paul hasn't revealed all that much, yet, about the true nature of the soul in the Wapsiverse. Who knows, he might have a curve-ball or two in store for us some year. ;)
I'm with you on this one. Tina sees auras, not souls.
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Re: A Lot To Answer For 2013-07-16

Post by Julie » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:44 am

Yamara wrote:
meisdadoo wrote:
Aleister Crow wrote:Charon: "Tsillah? Remember when I mentioned the Etheitians a little while ago? Somehow, all of them just turned up on my doorstep. That's right, their entire civilization. You wouldn't happen to know anything about that, would you?"
He needs to get a bigger boat . . .
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