Meet Later 2017-1-11

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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby FreeFlier » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm

oldmanmickey wrote:
Alkarii wrote:Hmmm... I feel there's a possibility that at some point, Timmy is still going to tell Scarlett (one or two t's? Too groggy to look right now) that he doesn't want to be with her. After all, she has been pretty much showing that she believes he is shallow, which anyone would find insulting, regardless of whether or not they actually are.

It's also possible that he doesn't like how he reacts to girls with large breasts, and that may even be part of the reason he wanted to study with Castela in the first place: He won't typically have the same difficulty talking to her.
And with her he could also study school lessons instead of something else.

Like anatomy . . . in braille . . .

--FreeFlier
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby Warrl » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:41 am

illiad wrote:yeah, 'subtle' is NOT something many men know about...

Image

... and that switch has been used SO many times, it is loose.. :P

But in the top picture, what is clearly happening is turning OFF.
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby illiad » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:48 am

Warrl wrote:But in the top picture, what is clearly happening is turning OFF.


hmmm, do you mean 'up' = 'erect' ??

no, most switches in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand, down = ON... unless you have two-way switches, where the state of one depends on the other... :p
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby FreeFlier » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:13 am

illiad wrote:
Warrl wrote:But in the top picture, what is clearly happening is turning OFF.
hmmm, do you mean 'up' = 'erect' ??

no, most switches in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand, down = ON... unless you have two-way switches, where the state of one depends on the other... :p

In the US, the National Electric Code specifies that for switches having a fixed on/off position, down is always off. No exceptions.

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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby illiad » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:17 am

um, see what country is missing from my comment... :) :)


UK spec: http://www.bs1363.org.uk/
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby GlytchMeister » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:09 am

Oh ffs.

The feminine finger is fondling the phallic object. If that isn't symbolic of foreplay and "turning on" for a dude, yer overthinking it.
He's mister GlytchMeister, he's mister code
He's mister exploiter, he's mister ones and zeros
They call me GlytchMeister, whatever I touch
Starts to glitch in my clutch!
I'm too much!
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby FreeFlier » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:40 am

illiad wrote:um, see what country is missing from my comment... :) :)

UK spec: http://www.bs1363.org.uk/[/quote]
I don't know UK code . . . I know US code, though I'm a little surprised the UK doesn't follow the same standard for the same reasons. But only a little surprised.

My intent was to contrast US code with what you were implying about UK code.

I do know that the UK uses 220 V 50 hertz AC, whereas the US uses 120/240 V (nominal) 60 hertz AC. Light devices (lamps, radios, computers) with plugs use the 120V, heavy devices (electric ranges, water heaters, clothes dryers) use 240V . . . mostly.

illiad wrote: . . . UK spec: http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

That's another difference: the US normally doesn't have fuses in plugs. The receptacle is protected with a circuit breaker (previously with a fuse) in the building panelboard instead.

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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby lake_wrangler » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:39 am

FreeFlier wrote:
illiad wrote: . . . UK spec: http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

That's another difference: the US normally doesn't have fuses in plugs. The receptacle is protected with a circuit breaker (previously with a fuse) in the building panelboard instead.

--FreeFlier

Currently,the front page for that website talks about counterfeit plugs... and has a link to a YouTube video of a counterfeit plug exploding...
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby AnotherFairportfan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:46 am

FreeFlier wrote:
illiad wrote:um, see what country is missing from my comment... :) :)

UK spec: http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

I don't know UK code . . . I know US code, though I'm a little surprised the UK doesn't follow the same standard for the same reasons. But only a little surprised.

My intent was to contrast US code with what you were implying about UK code.

I do know that the UK uses 220 V 50 hertz AC, whereas the US uses 120/240 V (nominal) 60 hertz AC. Light devices (lamps, radios, computers) with plugs use the 120V, heavy devices (electric ranges, water heaters, clothes dryers) use 240V . . . mostly.

illiad wrote: . . . UK spec: http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

That's another difference: the US normally doesn't have fuses in plugs. The receptacle is protected with a circuit breaker (previously with a fuse) in the building panelboard instead.

--FreeFlier[/quote]
There are a lot of OLD structures in the UK that were retrofitted however the wiring could be fit in.
He had done a good job of covering his tracks, but that was to be expected. After all, one does not conspire to ruin a House and murder a queen and then just stand there waving and waiting patiently for retribution.
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby illiad » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:52 pm

240V in USA?? or is this just for 'industrial' devices, not domestic??

In UK it is mostly called 240 VAC, but 220 is the lowest...

no fuse in plug?? could that be why it is so easy to blow the whole house??? in UK, just the plug fuse would go, no problem! :)

400V 3-phase is used for industrial machines..
http://www.brightlec.co.uk/what-is-3-ph ... buildings/
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby FreeFlier » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:25 pm

Most things are 120 VAC nominal, but the larger more powerful items in the home are 240 VAC nominal, things like electric cookstoves, water heaters, clothes dryers, furnaces, air conditioning. etc. The use of 240 VAC drops the amperage by half, requiring wire that's only half as large.

I keep referring to the voltage as nominal because the actual range of "120 nominal" is 110 to 125 VAC, occasionally going as high as 130 VAC, though the range from 117-120 VAC nominal is most common. The higher voltage is exactly twice the low, because the houses are fed with center-tap transformers with the center tap grounded. It's a bit strange, but it works well as long as you don't lose the center ground.

And no, a failed utilization device doesn't take out the entire house . . . it trips one circuit breaker, and that one circuit shuts off. If you've wired the house right, most rooms will have at least two circuits, one for the outlets and one for the overhead lighting so you're not in the dark if the plugs trip. 40 circuit panelboards are considered rather small. (Though a 240VAC line takes up two slots in the panelboard.)

They don't use fuses in the plug because people would install a larger fuse, which defeats the whole purpose. This is why current standard is to use circuit breakers instead of fuses for almost everything: people just routinely installed a larger fuse until the fuse stopped blowing.

Industrial/commercial service includes 120/177 VAC Y-type three-phase, used mostly for lighting in commercial buildings; in delta three-phase -widely used for motors and other induction devices- the voltage choices run from 240VAC through 440VAC to 660 VAC; there are higher voltages, but 440VAC is the most common because it's the best compromise between power and weird safety problems.

--FreeFlier
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby Dave » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:37 pm

illiad wrote:240V in USA?? or is this just for 'industrial' devices, not domestic??

The US uses a dual-120 arrangement. The "pole pig" distribution transformer has a 240-volt secondary winding, with a "tap" in the center. A three-wire drop cable is run from the transformer to the building's service entrance, at which point the power goes through a meter and a double-pole master circuit breaker.

The two wires from the two "hot" ends of the secondary each provide 120 volts (180 degrees out of phase with one another), with respect to the center tap (known as the "neutral"). Typically, about half of the circuits in the house use one 120-volt side, and the other half use the other 120-volt side. The neutral goes out to all outlets. Also, the neutral is connected to the power system ground (which is also wired out to all of the outlets, and connected to a ground rod hammered into the soil, or to a Ufer ground in the foundation)... and this ground-to-neutral connection is supposed to occur right at the main circuit-breaker panel, and nowhere else.

High-power appliances (electric stoves, dryers, heaters, etc.) usually use 240 volts - they connect to the two "120-volt" feeds and not to the neutral.

So, this isn't a three-phase industrial system... it's a two-phase (180-degrees-out-of-phase) system.

Buildings which need a true three-phase power (commercial/industrial) are wired up differently - they need a different sort of distribution transformer.

This setup makes life very interesting indeed, if something happens to the neutral connection from the transformer. If the neutral wire breaks or comes loose, you end up with the two "120-volt" halves of the house being effectively connected "in series" across a 240-volt supply in an unbalanced fashion... and this means that the voltage seen by each circuit varies all over the place, depending on which devices are drawing current. If you turn on a heavy load on one circuit (say, you start the microwave, or the refrigerator motor powers up), the voltage on that side of the house will sag well below 120, and the voltage on the other circuit increases! Very bad - this can and does cause damage: it can burn out light bulbs and motors and electronics due to either under-voltage or over-voltage, and it's not unknown for electrical fires to occur due to overheating. The power companies here consider an "open neutral" to be an emergency situation. It's happened at my house twice over the last 20 years (in both cases, a squirrel had chewed through the drop-wire insulation and cut the neutral wire!), and in both cases they had a truck out at our house within 30 minutes to start the repair.

no fuse in plug?? could that be why it is so easy to blow the whole house??? in UK, just the plug fuse would go, no problem! :)

Nope, the U.S. has never gone for fuse-in-plug as far as I know. Individual electronic components often have fuses, and each circuit from the distribution panel has a circuit breaker (sometimes with ground-fault or arc-fault protection) but most lights and appliances do not have their own fuses.

The U.S. plug body is a lot smaller than the U.K version, and doesn't really have room for a fuse.
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby illiad » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:58 pm

FreeFlier wrote:They don't use fuses in the plug because people would install a larger fuse, which defeats the whole purpose. This is why current standard is to use circuit breakers instead of fuses for almost everything: people just routinely installed a larger fuse until the fuse stopped blowing.
--FreeFlier

so how large a fuse can you get??? in UK, 'mains fuses' only fit mains devices, and the highest is 13 amp - other types cannot fit due to size difference..

as Dave said, there are 'badly wired' houses, where the whole floor could go...
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby Dave » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:58 pm

illiad wrote:so how large a fuse can you get??? in UK, 'mains fuses' only fit mains devices, and the highest is 13 amp - other types cannot fit due to size difference..

Back in The Day, U.S. houses used to use "screw-in" fuses. They look a bit like the base of a standard incandescent lamp (maybe an inch in each dimension). The fusible element is inside a glass cover. If the fuse blows, it's obvious which one blew, so you unscrew the blown fuse and screw in a new one.

Unfortunately there was no way to keep people from screwing a 30-amp fuse into a position which was wired for a 15-ampere circuit. It happened a lot, and it seriously defeated the overload protection.

Worse yet - if a fuse blew, and the person who stumbled down to the basement to replace it couldn't find an un-blown fuse (of the right or the wrong size), it was fairly common to "put a penny in the fuse box". He (usually a he rather than a she) would stick a penny into the holder and then screw the blown fuse into place on top of it - the (copper) penny would bridge the contacts in the holder, and power would be back on, and the fuse wouldn't blow again. Nothing like having a blowout-proof "300 ampere" fuse in a 15-ampere circuit. "Problem fixed"...

... until the real problem which had blown the fuse (shorted appliance, or too many high-amp appliances plugged into a low-amp circuit) started a fire. Used to happen quite a bit. "Penny in the fuse-box" is pretty much a trope these days... it's a second cousin to "Hey, hold my beer and watch this!" and "I think the gas tank is empty... got a match so I can make enough light to look into the tank?"

A similar problem can occur with "fuse in plug" arrangements, if the same size of plug/fuseholder is being used both for low-amperage devices (a table radio or a small light) and a toaster oven. If your 1-amp table radio fuse keeps blowing, and you stick a 13-amp fuse into the mains plug... you've got a significant fire hazard there. Even at the lower 120 volts used in the US, 13 amperes is a lot of juice (it's enough to run a toaster oven with red-hot elements), and allowing this much energy inside a "1-ampere" device is not a good thing. Worse yet, Ye Omnipresent Idiot could probably figure out how to stick something conductive into the fuse-holder and completely bypass the protection, and there'd be no easy way by looking at the outside of the plug to know that it had been kludged.

So, I'd guess, the feeling here is that the fuse-in-plug arrangement leads to somewhat of a false sense of security. And, since seems to require a physically larger and more expensive plug arrangement, I don't think there's any real chance that it'll ever be adopted here - the cost of retrofitting the whole national power grid would be excessive and the benefits too small.

Hell, we haven't even over changed to metric in practice!
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby FreeFlier » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:40 pm

Those pretty well sum it up . . . including "pennying the fuse". As noted, it was usually a man that did that . . .

And the edison-base fuse comes in amperages from 1A to 30A . . . and they all interchange. And the screw base is exactly the same as the common incandescent light bulb.

There were other types of plug (screw-in) fuse that didn't interchange between amperages, but the boxes for those were rare, and the conversion adaptors to convert the standard edison socket to type S fuses could be removed with a pair of pliers.

Heavier uses used cartridge fuses, but the various sizes also had interchangeable amperages within each size . . . only the type S offered significant -though flawed - protection against up-amping.

The normal arrangement of a fusebox can be seen here . . . that's fairly typical for an entire house of say 1940-50 vintage. The black things at the top are holders for cartridge fuses; one would be the main and the other for something else, probably the range or water heater. Some fuseboxes would have more holders and more sockets if needed. To disconnect the fuseholder circuits or replace the cartridge fuses, you pulled the entire fuseholder out.

Dave wrote:
illiad wrote:240V in USA?? or is this just for 'industrial' devices, not domestic??
The US uses a dual-120 arrangement. The "pole pig" distribution transformer has a 240-volt secondary winding, with a "tap" in the center. A three-wire drop cable is run from the transformer to the building's service entrance, at which point the power goes through a meter and a double-pole master circuit breaker.

The two wires from the two "hot" ends of the secondary each provide 120 volts (180 degrees out of phase with one another), with respect to the center tap (known as the "neutral"). Typically, about half of the circuits in the house use one 120-volt side, and the other half use the other 120-volt side. The neutral goes out to all outlets. Also, the neutral is connected to the power system ground (which is also wired out to all of the outlets, and connected to a ground rod hammered into the soil, or to a Ufer ground in the foundation)... and this ground-to-neutral connection is supposed to occur right at the main circuit-breaker panel, and nowhere else.

High-power appliances (electric stoves, dryers, heaters, etc.) usually use 240 volts - they connect to the two "120-volt" feeds and not to the neutral.

So, this isn't a three-phase industrial system... it's a two-phase (180-degrees-out-of-phase) system.

Actually, it's not two-phase, but split-phase, because the zero point on both legs occurs at the same time. (It's a common misconception. And I just learned the correct name.)

For two-phase, the legs need to cross zero voltage at different times. Most commonly (two-phase is really rare) they're 90 degrees out, as opposed to the 120 degrees found in three-phase.

Dave wrote:Buildings which need a true three-phase power (commercial/industrial) are wired up differently - they need a different sort of distribution transformer.

Usually three simple transformers connected in either a Y (Y-3-phase) or a triangle for delta three-phase.

Dave wrote:This setup makes life very interesting indeed, if something happens to the neutral connection from the transformer. If the neutral wire breaks or comes loose, you end up with the two "120-volt" halves of the house being effectively connected "in series" across a 240-volt supply in an unbalanced fashion... and this means that the voltage seen by each circuit varies all over the place, depending on which devices are drawing current. If you turn on a heavy load on one circuit (say, you start the microwave, or the refrigerator motor powers up), the voltage on that side of the house will sag well below 120, and the voltage on the other circuit increases! Very bad - this can and does cause damage: it can burn out light bulbs and motors and electronics due to either under-voltage or over-voltage, and it's not unknown for electrical fires to occur due to overheating. The power companies here consider an "open neutral" to be an emergency situation. It's happened at my house twice over the last 20 years (in both cases, a squirrel had chewed through the drop-wire insulation and cut the neutral wire!), and in both cases they had a truck out at our house within 30 minutes to start the repair.

That's rare . . . I've only known of a handful of cases of losing the neutral.


Fuse-in-plug is occasionally used, but it's very rare. Christmas lights are about the only time I've seen it.

--FreeFlier
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby Typeminer » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:41 pm

Dave wrote:"Penny in the fuse-box" is pretty much a trope these days... it's a second cousin to "Hey, hold my beer and watch this!" and "I think the gas tank is empty... got a match so I can make enough light to look into the tank?"


My dad's father was an electrician. When I was a kid, he told me--straight deadpan--that you should never put a penny in a fusebox. Because the professional procedure is to clip the circular electrode on the blown fuse, bend it over the center electrode, and screw the fuse back into the box.

Among other things, my mom's father was infamous for once burning off his eyebrows by using a match to look into a gas tank.

Some of my friends say these anecdotes explain a lot of things. :mrgreen:
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby illiad » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:23 am

heck I should have said **plug fuse*** .... :o :roll: :roll:

good to see there are enough 'stoopids' as there are here in UK :D :D !

" circular electrode on the blown fuse " ?? any chance of a pic?? :? :?
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby FreeFlier » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:52 am

illiad wrote: . . . good to see there are enough 'stoopids' as there are here in UK :D :D ! . . .

They're everywhere . . . in enormous numbers . . . rushing about with their one collective braincell totally occupied with blathering into their cellphones about nothing at all . . .

Not that it was much better before cellphones!

illiad wrote:" circular electrode on the blown fuse " ?? any chance of a pic?? :? :?

I think he's referring to the threaded shell around the outside of a screw-in fuse.

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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby AnotherFairportfan » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:42 am

FreeFlier wrote:
illiad wrote: . . . good to see there are enough 'stoopids' as there are here in UK :D :D ! . . .

They're everywhere . . . in enormous numbers . . . rushing about with their one collective braincell totally occupied with blathering into their cellphones about nothing at all . . .

Not that it was much better before cellphones!

illiad wrote:" circular electrode on the blown fuse " ?? any chance of a pic?? :? :?

I think he's referring to the threaded shell around the outside of a screw-in fuse.

--FreeFlier

Nah. The base contact.
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Re: Meet Later 2017-1-11

Postby FreeFlier » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:50 am

AnotherFairportfan wrote:
FreeFlier wrote:
illiad wrote:" circular electrode on the blown fuse " ?? any chance of a pic?? :? :?
I think he's referring to the threaded shell around the outside of a screw-in fuse.
Nah. The base contact.

There are only two contacts, the shell and the center . . . and he refers to bending it over the center contact . . .

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