The Library May Have Met Its Match

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jwhouk
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The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by jwhouk »

Quartz Coin stores 360 TB of data for 14 billion years.

Makes that crystal that Lily was playing with seem downright bulky...
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by GlytchMeister »

I always thought the crystal used quantum properties to store data. Like... Up spin is a 1, down spin is a 0, or something like that. But not just up and down spin, but all sorts of weird, quantum properties. Or something. P

Don't ask me, I know next to nothing about real quantum mechanics. It's one of those things I really just don't understand.

But... Five-dimensional storage? I... Don't even know how to... Fit that in my brain. How does the translation work? Would it be something like... Instead of using binary, it uses... Uh... Quinary?

Hmm.

I wonder if using higher number bases creates better information density... Maybe... Hmm. I mean... It would probably take a lot of storage capacity to store an entire consciousness. Let alone a Nu Gui.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by Dave »

GlytchMeister wrote:I always thought the crystal used quantum properties to store data. Like... Up spin is a 1, down spin is a 0, or something like that. But not just up and down spin, but all sorts of weird, quantum properties. Or something. P

Don't ask me, I know next to nothing about real quantum mechanics. It's one of those things I really just don't understand.

But... Five-dimensional storage? I... Don't even know how to... Fit that in my brain.
Three of the dimensions are the common three spatial dimensions we're used to - the coordinates of the "bits" in the crystal.

The other two dimensions (used in encoding the bits) aren't necessarily spatial ones... they're more abstract (e.g. "orientation" and "darkness" of each stored datum).
How does the translation work? Would it be something like... Instead of using binary, it uses... Uh... Quinary?
Or "quaternary".

In a way it's a bit like the use of MLC (multi-level charge) storage used in high-density flash memories today. Instead of storing one bit per cell (charged or not charged) they store two bits (charged, low charge, medium charge, full charge).

So, they might be storing two bits of information in each location in the quartz array. Think of what they "burn" into the quartz as being like an oval - it's either oriented horizontal or vertical (laser polarization) and it's either small or large (laser power used). Two different dimensions, four possible combinations of value, hence two bits of info.
Hmm.

I wonder if using higher number bases creates better information density... Maybe... Hmm. I mean... It would probably take a lot of storage capacity to store an entire consciousness. Let alone a Nu Gui.
In effect, yes. MLC flash stores two, or even three times as much per storage cell as SLC - in effect it's operating in base 4 or base 8 rather than base 2.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by GlytchMeister »

I wonder how many bits of information can be stored on a single atom. Can't be done with electrons of the atoms, as that would chemically alter the atom. I seem to recall other properties that can be messed with. Or maybe what I'm thinking of are electrons. How many bits can be stored on one electron.

Even if it's just one bit per atom, that can provide an amazingly high level of information per cubic unit of space, or unit of weight. 6.022x10^23 bits per 12 grams of carbon-12, if I remember correctly.

...

How many bits can be stored on a conventional memory device that weighs 12 grams?

Hmm... Aside from the quartz disk, the densest memory device I found was a 512 Gigabyte microSD card:

512 Gigabytes • 8•10^9 = about 4.1•10^12 bits

4.1•10^12bits/0.5g = 8.2•10^12 bits/g

The Quartz Disk:

360 Terabytes •8•10^12= About 2.9•10^15 bits

Totally guessing weight of 5 grams -> 5.8•10^14 bits/g

Theoretical 1 bit per carbon atom -> 6.022•10^23/12g = 5•10^22 bits/g

...

Yeah. Atomic bits would still provide a massive boost in storage capacity.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by GlytchMeister »

And, let's see here... The upper limit on the estimation of a human mind is 2.5 petabytes. That's 2.5•10^16 bits.

Sooo...it would take about 43 of those little quartz coins to store an entire human mind.

At 1 gram per coin, the total volume of the stored human mind is about 16 cm^3.
At 5 grams per coin, the total volume of the stored mind is about 81 cm^3.

And because my lovely nation doesn't use metric measurements, I have no idea how big 81 cc's is, so I found out it's about a third of a cup.

Huh.

Just from memory, the Nu Gui crystal looked to be about... Two or three cups? That's enough to store six or nine human minds.

Hmm...

That would mean, if using the same technology, the Insanity Gem from Dark Knowledge would have to be the size of a house, to store millions or billions of minds.

I'm gonna say the Stargate Memory Crystals use atomic bit memory. Mainly because it's convenient for me, and I don't have to re-write anything.

:P
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by Dave »

You could, in principle, use electron spin (up or down) as the storage element. There's already some work in progress to use this sort of encoding... search for "spintronics".

Part of the problem for doing these extremely-high-capacity storage systems is figuring out how to get the information in and out (i.e. how to "write" and "read" the bits) effectively. If you use light (e.g. lasers), it's difficult to read and write individual storage cells which are smaller than one wavelength... which means you need high-frequency lasers (blue or ultraviolet), which means high-energy photons, which means that they tend to be pretty disruptive to whatever they hit. They're already having to use UV light to do the photolithography to create today's high-density integrated circuits, and the features on those circuits are still a lot larger than one atom in size.

Researchers have used a very tiny "pencil" (the tip of an atomic-force microscope) to write, and read, patterns of atoms on a substrate... they can write "IBM" or "Kilroy was here" on a flat surface in features only a few atoms in size. This only works in two dimensions, though - they can't "do it in layers" the way the quartz-disk system does - and access isn't fast.

At some point you probably hit a tradeoff... when you store information more densely, your ability to access a certain amount of it in a given period of time flattens out. Accessing information requires energy, some fraction of the energy is always lost as heat in the system, and smaller devices are less able to get rid of waste heat. Try to read or write too much too quickly, and you boil or melt the storage device.

This is not something than an Inscribed Intelligence would appreciate.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by GlytchMeister »

Perhaps use beams of other kinds of particles? To simplify the problem: when you want to learn something about a thing, you have to bounce something else off of it and have it come back... Then you can figure out what you hit.

When you want to learn about a particular atom, people tend to bounce light off of it. Problem is, photons can screw with atom. Bouncing a photon off of an atom can change the atom, rendering the whole process worthless.

So you gotta bounce something off of the atom that won't screw up the atom in the first place.

Right off the top of my head, Neutrinos come to mind. They hardly interact with matter. I think I heard you can pass 10 neutrinos through a lighthearted of solid lead and 9 would be unaffected.

Of course, there is a LOT of background noise. So that's a pretty major problem.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by Warrl »

GlytchMeister wrote:And, let's see here... The upper limit on the estimation of a human mind is 2.5 petabytes. That's 2.5•10^16 bits.
10^15, not 10^16.
Sooo...it would take about 43 of those little quartz coins to store an entire human mind.
Or, maybe, a touch under 7 of them.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by GlytchMeister »

Warrl wrote:
GlytchMeister wrote:And, let's see here... The upper limit on the estimation of a human mind is 2.5 petabytes. That's 2.5•10^16 bits.
10^15, not 10^16.
Sooo...it would take about 43 of those little quartz coins to store an entire human mind.
Or, maybe, a touch under 7 of them.
Thanks, "back-O'-the-envelope" math has its inherent risks. :P
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by Atomic »

The long pole in the tent is always going to be interpreting the bit stream. It doesn't matter how well the data is packed or packaged, in the end it needs to be both Readable and Understandable.

Some time ago, some tech types in England had the bright idea to scan the famous Doomsday Book onto a Video Disk for posterity. So, with due fanfare, the several hundred year old book of records was copied into the shiny disk format, with the expectation to survive long after the silly old parchment book thing had crumbled to dust.

Some twenty years later, the disk was cracking, and the format was obsolete. The machinery needed to read it was no longer around.

Suppose some future archaeologist comes across a computerized file of something, and, manually reading the first dozen symbols in the file comes across the combination "GIF89a" in the series. Will he have the historical tools to read the <very> old GIF file and make an image out of it? Will it animate? In the right order?

Data packing is great. Data durability is something else. Clay, rock, and parchment are still in the lead there.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by GlytchMeister »

Right, because a code is worthless if nobody understands it. Fifty years now, I wouldn't be surprised if today's video file formats are completely dead languages.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by shadowinthelight »

One step closer.

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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by lake_wrangler »

Am I the only one who thinks "Sure, your data's safe 'forever'... as long as no hammer gets near it..."?
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by DinkyInky »

lake_wrangler wrote:Am I the only one who thinks "Sure, your data's safe 'forever'... as long as no hammer gets near it..."?
I keep thinking, "Transparent Aluminum is real" and giggle like a loon.
Yanno how some people have Angels/Devils for a conscience? I have a Dark Elf ShadowKnight and a Half Elf Ranger for mine. The really bad part is when they agree on something.

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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by scantrontb »

DinkyInky wrote:
lake_wrangler wrote:Am I the only one who thinks "Sure, your data's safe 'forever'... as long as no hammer gets near it..."?
I keep thinking, "Transparent Aluminum is real" and giggle like a loon.
how DO loons giggle?
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by Catawampus »

Atomic wrote:It doesn't matter how well the data is packed or packaged, in the end it needs to be both Readable and Understandable.
And its storage medium needs to be able to be located. "Right, I have all the critically urgent information that we need right here on this atom! Ummmm, wait, where did I put it? Everybody, stay where you are and look for an atom that looks. . .very informative."
scantrontb wrote:
DinkyInky wrote:I keep thinking, "Transparent Aluminum is real" and giggle like a loon.
how DO loons giggle?
Like DinkyInky does, apparently.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by DinkyInky »

Catawampus wrote:
Atomic wrote:It doesn't matter how well the data is packed or packaged, in the end it needs to be both Readable and Understandable.
And its storage medium needs to be able to be located. "Right, I have all the critically urgent information that we need right here on this atom! Ummmm, wait, where did I put it? Everybody, stay where you are and look for an atom that looks. . .very informative."
scantrontb wrote:
DinkyInky wrote:I keep thinking, "Transparent Aluminum is real" and giggle like a loon.
how DO loons giggle?
Like DinkyInky does, apparently.
*slaps you humorously*
Yanno how some people have Angels/Devils for a conscience? I have a Dark Elf ShadowKnight and a Half Elf Ranger for mine. The really bad part is when they agree on something.

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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by TazManiac »

Well, seeing as how the term 'Loonie' derives from Luna, I'd supposed Mooning, while laughing in a slightly hysterical (yet fully mirthful) manner is indicated...
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by Warrl »

Catawampus wrote:And its storage medium needs to be able to be located. "Right, I have all the critically urgent information that we need right here on this atom! Ummmm, wait, where did I put it? Everybody, stay where you are and look for an atom that looks. . .very informative."
As anyone who has tried to keep track of which microSD card is which can probably tell you, we've already reached a stage of compactness in storage where inability to provide a human-readable label is a problem.
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Re: The Library May Have Met Its Match

Post by TazManiac »

And I wonder why, if they had been striving for Archiving Security w/ the Video Disk (Laserdisk?) why didn't they have it repose in some inert gas environment or something?

(I still have two laserdisk players...) <-- inc the first three Star Wars movies.. ;)
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