Full Disclosure discussion section

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Dave
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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Dave » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:29 pm

lake_wrangler wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:54 pm
He made it sound like he had actually done shameful things which would cause his wife to distance herself from him, rather than "merely" (see caveats above) having been born into a poor family with a tough home life to go through.
IMO: in a way, what he was dealing with was even harder.

If you're ashamed of something you have done, you can do otherwise in the future. If someone has been hurt by something you have done, you can atone for your actions... you can make amends. If your behavior has offended, you can demonstrate that you can behave differently.

What Al was struggling with here wasn't what he had done, really. It was what he is (or, at least, what he perceived himself to be, from the time of his birth and childhood). That's not something that one can change (at least not in the literal sense, and lacking a time machine).

(Remember also that Al is English, not American... these are related cultures but not identical. As I understand it, class-consciousness is somewhat more strongly (or at least more overtly) rooted in the English psyche than is the case here in the U.S.

Horatio Alger was an American, as was his "rags-to-riches" story pattern with its message that poor beginnings were no barrier to success.)

So, Al had gotten into the habit of concealing his background from everyone, through the decades... he'd created a new, adult persona through which he could move through society and be accepted. I imagine that over time, the habit of concealing his origins just increased the tendency to think of them as That Which Must Never Be Revealed. The more time went by, the more people who got close to the "new Al", the more he stewed about it, and the more catastrophic a "coming out" must have looked.

It took the stress of his guilt about lying-by-omission to Daisy to crack him loose... and it took her issuing several swift kicks in the tail to get the message across that his family origins truly aren't a negative thing to her.

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Warrl » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:57 am

As for the "Real" Al, while it was quite interesting, I felt that the buildup lead to a bit of a letdown... I half expected to not only have rose from poorer ranks, but to have led a life of (small) crime,
Well, he falsified his age on the enlistment paperwork so he could enlist with parental consent.

And he forged the parental consent.

It's not really emphasized, but it's there in the story. A couple of crimes he committed at age 15 were very important in setting the course of his life.
or have suffered abuse (bullying notwithstanding), before he ran from home to join the army.
That happened too - his father, primarily, but it's clear that at age 15 he was aware what would happen to a small nerdy loner in a boarding school so presumably there was some of it at whatever school he attended. This mostly comes out later in the story (detail omitted because I'm not sure how much you've read), but I think there was some mention of it about the time they were in Leeds.
Horatio Alger was an American, as was his "rags-to-riches" story pattern with its message that poor beginnings were no barrier to success.
Actually, Al is a variant on what Horatio Alger wrote: instead of becoming super-rich by marrying the boss's daughter, he became super-rich by marrying the boss's widow (and at a much later age). The story of Al's life before then - making his way up from nothing to being well-off and an established businessman through intelligent and honest hard work - is an example of what Alger is reputed to have written but mostly didn't.

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by jwhouk » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:14 am

I would also contend - and the author can tell us otherwise - that had he not chosen the rigors of discipline of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, his magedom would have come out full-force - and likely in a very negative way.

Something that may have well happened in Wapsiverse-53 or so.
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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Just Old Al » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:12 am

lake_wrangler wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:54 pm
As for the "Real" Al, while it was quite interesting, I felt that the buildup lead to a bit of a letdown... I half expected to not only have rose from poorer ranks, but to have led a life of (small) crime, or have suffered abuse (bullying notwithstanding), before he ran from home to join the army. I understand his concern about the difference in social standing between his origins and where Rosalynd stands, but the buildup was such that I expected things to have been far worse than they actually were.

But if I look at it, as mentioned above, as an irrational fear on his part, then the storytelling itself is quite well done and reflects that aspect well.

I am also enjoying the various outings so far, including the darts game.

I am now up to his having spoken with Alasdair, who bought the house from Hew. Looking forward to reading more.
Thank you, Lake, for both your commentary and kudos. However, if I may I want to address the statement above.

The reveal there was milder than it could have been, for several reasons. However, there are a lot of implied and not-so-implied issues going on there.

The alcoholism and the dysfunctional home life were downplayed, to be honest. There are mentions of of it later in the missive (you haven’t reached them yet and I will not mention details ‘cause spoilers). However, the abuse was there. The first version of that reveal was considerably more graphic - and got shoved WAY under the discards pile - it gave me nightmares. Because of it I may have understated the realities - and I appreciate your speaking up on it.

Also, as Dave mentions after this, Al is a product of his society - which is considerably more class-conscious than that here in North America on either side of our shared border. Here, the raising of oneself by one’s bootstraps is lauded and applauded - in the UK no matter your success you will never be accepted by ‘proper’ society. It’s as horrid deficiency in a culture I otherwise admire and enjoy.

Look up the English term ‘barrow’ boy’ - specifically its application in the English financial world.

Again, thank you. Do read on, and please enjoy!

Alan
"The Empire was founded on cups of tea, mate, and if you think I am going to war without one you are sadly mistaken."

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Just Old Al » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:23 am

Dave wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:29 pm

What Al was struggling with here wasn't what he had done, really. It was what he is (or, at least, what he perceived himself to be, from the time of his birth and childhood). That's not something that one can change (at least not in the literal sense, and lacking a time machine).
Spot on {he says, pointing at his nose}. Note the comments about Al calling himself a ‘useless street rat’ in the later discussion with Rosalynd, and the thorough bollocking he gets about the head and shoulders for it. As you say here, he gets several hooves up the arse for his attitude (and the thorough self-loathing that springs from his perceptions).
(Remember also that Al is English, not American... these are related cultures but not identical. As I understand it, class-consciousness is somewhat more strongly (or at least more overtly) rooted in the English psyche than is the case here in the U.S.
Chu gottit. As I mentioned above - look up the term ‘barrow boy’. It’s a foreign concept to these nations of immigrants we inhabit outside of certain enclaves...but there it is a fact of life.

Al
"The Empire was founded on cups of tea, mate, and if you think I am going to war without one you are sadly mistaken."

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Just Old Al » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:26 am

jwhouk wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:14 am
I would also contend - and the author can tell us otherwise - that had he not chosen the rigors of discipline of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, his magedom would have come out full-force - and likely in a very negative way.

Something that may have well happened in Wapsiverse-53 or so.
An interesting point, and to be honest not one I’d considered. That could have gone...very badly. Somehow, the thought of MIB putting down an out of control young lad whose powers manifested out of control...a possibility.

Not a happy thought...at all. A good point, however.
"The Empire was founded on cups of tea, mate, and if you think I am going to war without one you are sadly mistaken."

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by lake_wrangler » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:10 pm

I understand the principle, and why it was important to him, but I definitely side with Daisy on this one. It matters little where you came from, it matters who you are now (unless, of course, we're talking about some sort of criminal past, which would need to be atoned for and perhaps attended to by the justice system... Then, it could be a toss-up, depending on the person who is just finding out...)

I was recently reading the Wikipedia page of the HMS Pinafore, and saw how the Captain would not allow his daughter to marry a lower class sailor, so I know it was, and probably very much still is, in some circles, very important to maintain and keep to your station in life...

I'm up to chapter 41, now. Interesting development. Did not see that coming, at first (although there were clues, along the way, before the "big reveal"...)

As usual, I am enjoying this fanfiction very much.

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Warrl » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Dangit, I should have suggested that Hew kissing Millicent at the party should have gotten a standing ovation...

As to the culture thing, there have been - and probably still are - areas of British society where Lady Alexander's suggestion that Tirion, a mere housekeeper, should dispense with titles and refer to her by just her given name - and then, further, to suggest that she dine with the master and lady of the house - would have been sufficiently improper as to possibly induce Tirion to seek other employment. To insult her by implying she'd be willing to put on such airs above her station - hmf!

(Although she'd probably get a pass for being a foreigner by birth and upbringing... for a little while, anyway.)

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Just Old Al » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:40 am

Warrl wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:26 pm
Dangit, I should have suggested that Hew kissing Millicent at the party should have gotten a standing ovation...
Thought about it - but it was a big barn and let’s face it this is likely not an unusual event for our farmer and his wife.
As to the culture thing, there have been - and probably still are - areas of British society where Lady Alexander's suggestion that Tirion, a mere housekeeper, should dispense with titles and refer to her by just her given name - and then, further, to suggest that she dine with the master and lady of the house - would have been sufficiently improper as to possibly induce Tirion to seek other employment. To insult her by implying she'd be willing to put on such airs above her station - hmf!

(Although she'd probably get a pass for being a foreigner by birth and upbringing... for a little while, anyway.)
Far too true on the latter - and I should have emphasized this. Good point and a possible edit for the Director’s Cut. True enough that she wouldn’t have had a big problem with Al - as he said ‘military men are two a penny’, but the Lady in residence....good point.
"The Empire was founded on cups of tea, mate, and if you think I am going to war without one you are sadly mistaken."

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by lake_wrangler » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:11 pm

Just finished reading.

Bravo! Bravo!
(Can'T think of anything else to add, as I would be recapping the story, which most people who have made it to here probably already know...)

Having said that, I can't remember whether I've asked this before, or if it ever was mentioned:

How do you pronounce Al's last name?

Is it as in the wedding vows, like "for richer or poorer"?
Is it like Star Trek TNG's Commander Ryker?
Or even, inspired by Captain Picard (how did a Frenchman ever end up with a British accent??? I don't recall ever hearing any kind of explanation for that...), is it pronounced like the French would? (Best described as "Reeshay", while rolling the 'R', of course...)


I look forward to the next instalment of the Extended Wapsiverse.

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Just Old Al » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:17 pm

lake_wrangler wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:11 pm
How do you pronounce Al's last name?

Is it as in the wedding vows, like "for richer or poorer"?
Is it like Star Trek TNG's Commander Ryker?
Or even, inspired by Captain Picard (how did a Frenchman ever end up with a British accent??? I don't recall ever hearing any kind of explanation for that...), is it pronounced like the French would? (Best described as "Reeshay", while rolling the 'R', of course...)

I look forward to the next installment of the Extended Wapsiverse.
I pronounce it Rich-er - as in richer or poorer as you make the comparison. Al would pronounce it the same - origins of the name are lost as is his genealogy for obvious reasons but likely a French influence somewhere generations back.

Generations back it was the last pronunciation - with the proper trill to the RI of course.

It is a very French name - but that is not at all unusual in England.
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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by lake_wrangler » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:58 am

Just Old Al wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:17 pm
I pronounce it Rich-er - as in richer or poorer as you make the comparison. Al would pronounce it the same - origins of the name are lost as is his genealogy for obvious reasons but likely a French influence somewhere generations back.
Thank you. I think that's how I always "heard" it in my head, whenever I read it in the various stories, but this time around, doubt* assailed me, and I wanted to make sure.

Just Old Al wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:17 pm
Generations back it was the last pronunciation - with the proper trill to the RI of course.
Ooo... How trilling... :mrgreen:
Oddly enough, I have harder time rolling my Rs than most other French speaking people... and it's not an influence of my being so fluent in English, as it's always been the case.
Just Old Al wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:17 pm
It is a very French name - but that is not at all unusual in England.
Fallout from the Norman conquest of England, no doubt...



* Small caps 'd,' of course... :P

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by jwhouk » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:04 am

Hence the "Sassenach" comment. ;)
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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Dave » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:10 am

lake_wrangler wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:58 am
Ooo... How trilling... :mrgreen:
Oddly enough, I have harder time rolling my Rs than most other French speaking people... and it's not an influence of my being so fluent in English, as it's always been the case.
Hmmm. Can you roll your tongue? That is, can you bend it into a tube-like "U" shape?

Some people can, and some people cannot... I was taught that this is a genetically-linked (inherited) trait. Some differences in the musculature and nerves I suppose, which might affect the ability to use the tongue to make certain phonemes.

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Dave » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:31 pm

Oh... apropos of a discussion elsewhere in the forum... would Victoria have needed any special attention to fuel or lubricants, in order to continue to operate safely these days?

It looks as if a '53 doesn't require a particularly high octane rating for its fuel... might run OK on U.S. Regular even without having its timing adjusted. However, the motor was likely designed to assume leaded gasoline - would it be at risk of excessive wear if run on unleaded? Might some sort of high-lubricity oil or some other sort of additive be required?

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Just Old Al » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:00 pm

Dave wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:31 pm
Oh... apropos of a discussion elsewhere in the forum... would Victoria have needed any special attention to fuel or lubricants, in order to continue to operate safely these days?

It looks as if a '53 doesn't require a particularly high octane rating for its fuel... might run OK on U.S. Regular even without having its timing adjusted. However, the motor was likely designed to assume leaded gasoline - would it be at risk of excessive wear if run on unleaded? Might some sort of high-lubricity oil or some other sort of additive be required?
[Al mode on]

Surprisingly, little to none.

She would have been designed to run on 'four-star' petrol - leaded with a reasonably high octane. With a lead additive (available at the motor factor's) she could go on that way forever with no problems. The added lead substitute simply prevents valve recession into the seats - (seat erosion). A more permanent solution can be taken during an overhaul, by replacing the valve seats and exhaust valves with hardened items - a relatively trivial change allowing her to run on pump gas.

I've done this conversion on two of the Land-Rovers I have and it's reasonably trivial for an engine shop to do. Did it as part of a head refresh and the extra work was little. I farmed out the seat work because I didn't have the tooling and the ROI on making it was too low.

Even for Victoria it would be much the same - the parts are relatively standard. For all her luxury, that big 6-pot engine is a pretty straightforward beast.

Lubricants are trivial - the same stuff she used then is available in similar grades today. Filters - no problem.

Even the Morgan is the same, though that's air-cooled and uses some slightly odd oils for the high temp ranges because of an air-cooled engine.

The only problem is the gear oil - that needs to be of a certain spec and you need to be sure it's brass-friendly. Not a big problem, but just an awareness issue.

Now, you know more about the subject than you ever ever wanted to know.

[/Al]
"The Empire was founded on cups of tea, mate, and if you think I am going to war without one you are sadly mistaken."

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by FreeFlier » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:35 am

The big problem will be alcohol-free gasoline - the tainted garbage goes bad so fast that it's trouble for anything that's not driven frequently.

--FreeFlier

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by Just Old Al » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:57 am

FreeFlier wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:35 am
The big problem will be alcohol-free gasoline - the tainted garbage goes bad so fast that it's trouble for anything that's not driven frequently.

--FreeFlier
[Al mode on]

Too true if untreated. This is why anything that gets set aside for Winter gets Sta-Bil - it's the only way to deal with it properly.

In the Bentley's case it would likely be drained down and purged - a 15-minute job. Empty the tank, run it till it empties the carb bowls, then hit the carbs with fogging oil just because.

On the Rovers here I usually just treat the tank with Sta-Bil and run them to get the treated fuel up into the carburettors. Once that's done I don't worry for the amount of time they'll be put away. If I were going to store one long-term it would get purged, cooling system emptied and so on. Then a liberal done of fogging oil because I HATE dealing with rusted gearboxes. BTDT tore up the T-shirt in frustration.

One truck I bought as salvage (a 1951 Series I) had sat in the open for over a quarter-century. I was buying a serial number there and knew it.

However, the dipstick had been left out of the gearbox and it filled with water...and sat that way for 25 years.

The inside of the box looked like the engine room of the Titanic. Locked SOLID. I salvaged what I could and the rest got tossed on the skip. Surprisingly the housings fared reasonably well.

[/Al]
"The Empire was founded on cups of tea, mate, and if you think I am going to war without one you are sadly mistaken."

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by lake_wrangler » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:49 pm

Dave wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:10 am
lake_wrangler wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:58 am
Ooo... How trilling... :mrgreen:
Oddly enough, I have harder time rolling my Rs than most other French speaking people... and it's not an influence of my being so fluent in English, as it's always been the case.
Hmmm. Can you roll your tongue? That is, can you bend it into a tube-like "U" shape?

Some people can, and some people cannot... I was taught that this is a genetically-linked (inherited) trait. Some differences in the musculature and nerves I suppose, which might affect the ability to use the tongue to make certain phonemes.
In fact, yes I can. But my R rolling still consists more of a guttural play with saliva in the very back of the throat, than an actual rolling done with the tongue (or trilling, as Al mentioned.)

I don't know. :roll:


Random thought: I wondered, just now, if it's at all related to my inability to talk (or sing) fast. I have tried, in the past, but I trip all over myself when I do... (Then again, I can't play the saxophone very fast, either...)

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Re: Full Disclosure discussion section

Post by FreeFlier » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:50 am

Someone I knew casually bought a Caterpillar D-8 that had been parked since the early '70's . . . The former owner had parked in a shed, changed all the fluids and drained the fuel, then poured it completely full of oil, etc. before leaving for the Alaska pipeline.

The buyer bought it for parts in the 2000's, lifted the shed off of it, and then discovered this . . . he wound up keeping his old machine for parts instead, since this one started once it had the fluids set correctly and new fuel. (He added an electric start, too.)

--FreeFlier

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